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teddanson
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Post subject: Re: Final Approach (1991) does it have CDS audio? Posted: 24 Aug 2023, 22:46 |
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Joined: 16 Nov 2018, 14:21 Posts: 1570 Location: New Delaware Has thanked: 448 times Been thanked: 496 times
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I got a copy on the way too. Good job you didn't spend long looking for a DVD or Blu Ray as there isn't one. It's only on Laserdisc and VHS. The Laserdisc is in the correct AR, the VHS is P&S and HiFi Stereo only so probably not worth hunting down. The LD is reportedly superb on the audio front. I'm guessing because it was a CDS reference title on its theatrical release and hopefully that is what we will find on the Laserdisc. Supposedly its a good film too so I'm looking forward to watching it. I'm hoping to collect all of the films that used CDS. There isn't many and the ones I do have so far are all superb. Dick Tracy on DVD is an absolute audio treat. Terminator 2 is good too, the Artisan R1 DVD, but I think Dick Tracy beats it. The Doors is another I have but haven't received yet. Not too many more to get.
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rein-o
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Post subject: Re: Final Approach (1991) does it have CDS audio? Posted: 25 Aug 2023, 00:06 |
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Joined: 03 May 2004, 19:05 Posts: 8118 Location: Dullaware Has thanked: 1228 times Been thanked: 851 times
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After my last post I did a search and could only find DVD-R copies. Did search after your first post about the CDS and its interesting, sort of remember seeing Dick Tracy in the theaters but didn't know anything about the audio, also it was a dumpy theater in NYC, I doubt it would have had the audio for the CDS. Big thanks again to you ted, you post a bunch of weird stuff that I haven't seen or heard of or get me at the right time to buy an LD when I've decided for the past year to never get another LD again
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teddanson
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Post subject: Re: Final Approach (1991) does it have CDS audio? Posted: 25 Aug 2023, 14:21 |
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Joined: 16 Nov 2018, 14:21 Posts: 1570 Location: New Delaware Has thanked: 448 times Been thanked: 496 times
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signofzeta wrote: OK, I give up. Is this really a format or a gag based on a really hard to Google name? Oh certainly not a joke, it's the real deal. It was a sound system from Kodak that made it's debut in 1990 with Dick Tracy. Only a handful of films used CDS. I think the problem was reliability. Steven Speilberg apparently attended a test screening of a film (not sure what film, it might have been Dick Tracy I'm not sure) to see if he could be persuaded to use CDS (not to be confused with Sony's DSC system) for his 1991 film Hook. The test screening equipment broke down and he walked out and said he wasn't going to use it. It's essentially 5.1 (at least that's as far as it got, or something like that, it was never fully maxed out I don't think) but lossless and (for 1990) the highest bitrate of it's era by some margin. Anything made for CDS was apparently sonically excellent. Which is why Final Approach, an obscure 1991 film with a very limited US theatrical release) received so many plaudits for it's incredible audio. I'm hoping it made it's way to the Laserdisc release because it's not available elsewhere except for VHS but I have no idea what that release would be like from an audio perspective. Video-wise it's P&S, with the Laserdisc being OAR so again it's the release of choice. There simply isn't anything better out there (perhaps a 35mm or 70mm print and a working CDS system I guess) other than DVD-R bootlegs. Full specsheet is here (from In70mm): As you can see, it was leagues ahead of anything else at the time. Just a shame it didn't catch on. The full list of CDS films is as follows: Title Released Notes
Sounds Like The Real World ??.??.???? Released in 35mm and 70mm CDS Dick Tracy 15.06.1990 Released in 70mm CDS and 70mm magnetic Days of Thunder 27.06.1990 35mm anamorphic and released in 70mm CDS and 70mm magnetic Flatliners 10.08.1990 Released in 35mm in Europe Edward Scissorhands 07.12.1990 Released in 35mm CDS, 70mm CDS and 70mm magnetic The Doors 01.03.1991 Released in 35mm CDS and 70mm magnetic Hudson Hawk 24.05.1991 Released in 35mm CDS Terminator 2: Judgement Day 03.07.1991 Super 35 released in 35mm CDS, 70mm CDS and 70mm magnetic For The Boys 22.11.1991 35mm wide screen Final Approach ??.11.1991 35mm anamorphic and released in 35mm CDS Universal Soldier 03.07.1992 Shown in CDS in Kinepolis, Bruxelles, Belgium Released in 35mm CDS
The ones I know of at the moment are: - Dick Tracy - All DVD releases (the US/CA R1 has a bonus DTS track but the 5.1 on all releases is excellent), possibly the Blu Ray but I cannot confirm it. I did try the Apple TV version and it sounds a lot narrower, nowhere near the clarity of the DVD version.
- Final Approach - The USA Laserdisc supposedly has it/uses it. I'll find out soon enough. The VHS I don't know, it's HiFi though.
- Terminator 2: Judgement Day - The only release that has this is the R1 first run DVD from Artisan. Not sure about LD, far as I know no LD's have it. I have this DVD. It sounds phenomenal (but Dick Tracy is better imho).
- The Doors - The special edition USA Laserdiscs have it apparently. The 15th Anniversary R1 DVD from Lionsgate has it. Everything else after it has been remixed/fiddled with.
- For The Boys - Laserdisc might have it? Not sure. The DVD releases have it. Possibly the Blu Ray.
- Universal Soldier - The new 4K and Blu Ray remasters from Studio Canal allegedly have it. It's a give away due to an audio wobble in the opening company logo credits apparently. Anything before that I have no idea.
- Edward Scissorhands - Supposedly the DVD has it as it's a 4.0 track. I cannot confirm this though. The Blu Ray is the same it seems.
- Hudson Hawk - The Blu Ray from Signal One is 4.0 and has it. Anything before that I don't know.
- Flatliners - I don't know yet.
- Days of Thunder - I don't know yet.
Proof: Edward Scissorhands end credits: For The Boys end credits: Final Approach end credits: Terminator 2 end credits: More information on Terminator 2 engagements here: https://thedigitalbits.com/columns/history-legacy--showmanship/remembering-terminator2-judgment-day-25th/Page-2
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teddanson
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Post subject: Re: Final Approach (1991) does it have CDS audio? Posted: 25 Aug 2023, 15:23 |
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Joined: 16 Nov 2018, 14:21 Posts: 1570 Location: New Delaware Has thanked: 448 times Been thanked: 496 times
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Yeah that's why I'm not hedging my bets for Final Approach LD to have the CDS track 'exactly' per se. But from what I understand, whatever is on that disc does use the CDS master for whatever is on that Laserdisc. Which is probably why it reportedly sounds so fantastic.
We'll see. Whatever the outcome, it's either the Laserdisc or the VHS if you want to own the film, it's not available anywhere else. No idea why.
The DVD's definitely do have the CDS tracks. I guess being an entriely digital process from source to disc authoring? I don't know enough to comment for certain, my knowledge just isn't anywhere near as storng as other folks here. LDDB member sdraper was the one that got me in to CDS through his YouTube channel. I saw T2 Artisan there and managed to find a copy for a nice price. Then Dick Tracy I got for next to nothing so I could test the DVD before trying to get the expensive Blu Ray. Dick Tracy blew my socks off. The sheer width and separation of the sound on that DVD (taking format limitations in to consideration) is quite something. The Club Ritz shootout is superb, but there's a better demo. The opening scene of the film in the Club Ritz, with one of the bosses slurping oysters. Madonna is singing in the background, but the boss guy keeps slurpring up oysters. Each slurp is perfectly separated and ripples out of the centre channel very clearly while the busy background music sits very comfortably around the other channels.
I've not watched T2 or Dick Tracy entirely in CDS yet, but at the moment I prefer Dick Tracy, but both discs are impressive imho. I'm excited to see what the other films might sound like. Especially Final Approach. It even sounds good in compressed YouTube Potatovision.
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teddanson
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Post subject: Re: Final Approach (1991) does it have CDS audio? Posted: 25 Aug 2023, 16:15 |
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Joined: 16 Nov 2018, 14:21 Posts: 1570 Location: New Delaware Has thanked: 448 times Been thanked: 496 times
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Just by way of update. I stand corrected on Hudson Hawk. All DVD and Blu Ray releases are Dolby Stereo 2.0. However some releases have a Russian 4.0 track on them. Edit: Some conflicting information on the Blu Ray. Apparently it does NOT use the discrete 5.1 CDS theatrical track, no home video release ever has allegedly, but instead features a 4.0 surround track matrixes to 2.0. More here: https://thedigitalbits.com/item/hudson- ... no-2022-bdIn essence you are probably best off not worrying about getting Hudson Hawk for the CDS track until a new release, if any, emerges that uses the CDS audio and states that clearly. So for now, if you want the film, any version will do I suppose.
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rcarlson
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Post subject: Re: Final Approach (1991) does it have CDS audio? Posted: 26 Aug 2023, 13:48 |
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Joined: 02 Jan 2021, 00:35 Posts: 249 Location: Northern Virginia Has thanked: 165 times Been thanked: 147 times
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Here's a frustratingly ambiguous Wikipedia quote that could potentially explain the 4.0 mystery: Quote: Not all films with CDS soundtracks used all 5.1 channels; some, such as Edward Scissorhands (1990), used only the 4 channels that were supported by Dolby Stereo. Whoever wrote this didn't site a source, so it might not even be correct, but if Hudson Hawk is included in "some," that would be consistent with 4.0 being the most channels that have shown up on home video.
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