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 Post subject: Fantasia sound track
PostPosted: 25 Aug 2015, 12:51 
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I played my copy of Fantasia the other night and noticed something puzzling. I played the LD's on my CLD-D406 and the digital sound came through loud and clear. I then noticed that the Chapter Page had the Dolby Surround logo at its bottom. I switched to the AC-3 button on my SDP-E800 and got zero sound. The AC-3 light on the CLD-D406 was not lit so I concluded that the LD's are in normal stereo. I checked another LD that has surround sound and under the Dolby Surround logo was AC-3.

My question is: Was there a mistake made in the printing of the Chapter Page? I know that Fantasia was released in 1940 when there was only stereo sound. Is the Dolby Surround referring to some other format?
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 Post subject: Re: Fantasia sound track
PostPosted: 25 Aug 2015, 13:17 
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dumbchemist wrote:
My question is: Was there a mistake made in the printing of the Chapter Page?


No mistake at all :-)

You're referring to 2 different things:

1/ Dolby Surround = Dolby Prologic = center channel + rear channel derived from a stereo soundtrack (L+R) either analog or digital
2/ Dolby Surround SR = Dolby AC3 = Dolby Digital = 5.1 digital soundtrack encoded in the right analog track

So in your case Fantasia is 1/ and your test disc for AC3 is 2/.

Julien
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 Post subject: Re: Fantasia sound track
PostPosted: 25 Aug 2015, 14:13 
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admin wrote:
dumbchemist wrote:
My question is: Was there a mistake made in the printing of the Chapter Page?


No mistake at all :-)

You're referring to 2 different things:

1/ Dolby Surround = Dolby Prologic = center channel + rear channel derived from a stereo soundtrack (L+R) either analog or digital
2/ Dolby Surround SR = Dolby AC3 = Dolby Digital = 5.1 digital soundtrack encoded in the right analog track

So in your case Fantasia is 1/ and your test disc for AC3 is 2/.

Julien


Thanks for clearing that up for me. I am currently setup for 5.0 surround (no subwoofer yet). I just replayed side 1 of Fantasia and checked for sound coming out of the center channel and heard nothing. I was not surprised; but, thought I would give it a test. I will now know what to expect when I see the Dolby Surround logo without the AC-3 below it.
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 Post subject: Re: Fantasia sound track
PostPosted: 21 Sep 2015, 00:26 
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i have a copy of this movie.
the analog tracks appear to be very narrow stereo.
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 Post subject: Re: Fantasia sound track
PostPosted: 21 Sep 2015, 13:45 
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I have only listened to Fantasia, around a friends on VHS Hi-Fi stereo though Dolby pro-logic some 16 or 17 years ago and I liked the musical film of classical music. :)

I looked though the database http://www.lddb.com/search/IMDb/0032455 thinking there was a Dolby AC-3 pressing and none at all, just stereo or Dolby surround re-mix versions. I thought there might have been a THX pressing but none of those just this CAV Fantasia: Special Edition (1940) [1236 CS]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantasound

http://www.in70mm.com/newsletter/2000/60/fantasia/
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 Post subject: Re: Fantasia sound track
PostPosted: 21 Sep 2015, 14:53 
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laserbite34 wrote:
I have only listened to Fantasia, around a friends on VHS Hi-Fi stereo though Dolby pro-logic some 16 or 17 years ago and I liked the musical film of classical music. :)

I looked though the database http://www.lddb.com/search/IMDb/0032455 thinking there was a Dolby AC-3 pressing and none at all, just stereo or Dolby surround re-mix versions. I thought there might have been a THX pressing but none of those just this CAV Fantasia: Special Edition (1940) [1236 CS]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantasound

http://www.in70mm.com/newsletter/2000/60/fantasia/


I have the 1991 50'th anniversary box set which you found on the LDDB website. The set is complete with the book, chapter listings and the certificate. The cardboard box is worn; but, the LD's are in excellent shape.
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 Post subject: Re: Fantasia sound track
PostPosted: 21 Sep 2015, 16:58 
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I also have that set, it's huge.
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 Post subject: Re: Fantasia sound track
PostPosted: 22 Sep 2015, 00:55 
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If I'm not mistaken, Fantasia debuted in quad, stored optically on parallel 35mm reals. Probably a proprietary system.


Something like that. Not mono, not stereo.

While an AC-3 version might have been be nice, the sound is not very high fi for this film and I'm not sure it would have been very impressive. The 1982 re-recorded version would adapt to digital surround nicely, but nobody cares about that one because re-recording soundtracks is for dumb dumbs.

This is one case where just having fewer speakers of higher quality goes a lot further than bleeding edge tech crapola.
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 Post subject: Re: Fantasia sound track
PostPosted: 22 Sep 2015, 14:00 
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thewhitefalcon wrote:
I also have that set, it's huge.


Yes, the box set is large and heavy. There are 3 LD's: 5 sides are recorded in CAV format and the 6'th side is CLV. The PQ is extremely good giving a fantastic viewing (no pun intended). I do not have room to store the box on its edge with my collection as I have no room for it. I have to store the box flat on top of the other LD's. I don't think that the LD's in the set will be harmed by doing this for now.
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 Post subject: Re: Fantasia sound track
PostPosted: 22 Sep 2015, 19:11 
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Indeed the film debuted in a 4.0 format called Fantasound which didn't do big business and I think the general release was mono. The 1991 remaster did a Dolby surround mix of the original material but no one knows how accurate it may be. It was the last release to have the original narration though. Sounds excellent.
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 Post subject: Re: Fantasia sound track
PostPosted: 24 Sep 2015, 00:06 
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The program booklet says that the 4 channel sound system (Fantasound) required additional speakers in each theatre. This did not please the theatre owners due to the extra expense. This must have reduced the number of theatres that could show the movie as well as the cities that could host such theatres.
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 Post subject: Re: Fantasia sound track
PostPosted: 24 Sep 2015, 01:43 
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Disney won an Academy Award for Fantasound, but the picture didn't do all that well from a financial standpoint. They took a bath on it as I recall.
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 Post subject: Re: Fantasia sound track
PostPosted: 24 Sep 2015, 13:26 
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thewhitefalcon wrote:
Disney won an Academy Award for Fantasound, but the picture didn't do all that well from a financial standpoint. They took a bath on it as I recall.


In the cinema world, not all movies make money: Waterworld and Heaven's Gate (I think) come to mind.

Today, a box office flop can make back some of its losses by DVD and BR sales. In 1940, home video was not even dreamed about.

Before home video, Disney used to re-release its movies to theatres every 7 years. The theory being that every 7 years there is a new generation of children available as an audience. I do not know if they are still doing that today; but, it is a way of getting money back on their investment.
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 Post subject: Re: Fantasia sound track
PostPosted: 10 Jun 2016, 00:35 
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scraper is spot on.

Quote:
Indeed the film debuted in a 4.0 format called Fantasound which didn't do big business and I think the general release was mono. The 1991 remaster did a Dolby surround mix of the original material but no one knows how accurate it may be. It was the last release to have the original narration though. Sounds excellent.


I'll blame the videophiles overlooking the audiophile nuances of Fantasia. The 1991 laserdisc pressing has Terry Porters original remastering of the only remaining reel dating to 1955. My box set copy credits Porter with it, and includes the Dolby Surround logo to reproduce the original audio. I listen to it with Prologic via the digital sound track; and it's sublime to hear. As others have said, this track has intense soundfield directionality that go so well with the video. That surround track is one (huge) reason I have this disc: Porters wanted to be authentic to how Leopold, Taylor, and Walt wanted us to hear it.

Fantasia just isn't the same with the narrator replacement or orchestral replacement that came in later (CD, DVD, Blu-ray) releases.

A good read is here: http://articles.philly.com/1990-10-05/n ... -animators
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 Post subject: Re: Fantasia sound track
PostPosted: 10 Jun 2016, 01:27 
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While I have the DVD that came with 2000 I've never watched it. I'm pretty sure the only versions I've seen are the CLV and CLV versions on LD. Both are terrific (except for that stupid stupid box). I didn't know the audio was so messed with on latter issues. What a terrible idea. While the LD sounds "old" is also amazingly atmospheric and one of my favorites.
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 Post subject: Re: Fantasia sound track
PostPosted: 20 Jan 2017, 18:59 
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Quote:
This is one case where just having fewer speakers of higher quality goes a lot further than bleeding edge tech crapola.


LOL! Yes!! :D

Quote:
Indeed the film debuted in a 4.0 format called Fantasound which didn't do big business and I think the general release was mono. The 1991 remaster did a Dolby surround mix of the original material but no one knows how accurate it may be. It was the last release to have the original narration though. Sounds excellent.


Yep. I'm pretty sure this question has popped up before but I just re-watched Fantasia and saw the thread late.

If you have the big box set from 1991, the booklet that comes with the box includes a revised list of credits including one called "Film Restoration".

Sound Restoration TERRY PORTER, C.A.S

Back in 1990/91, AC-3 wasn't available for carrying a digital surround signal for someone like Terry who was remastering, no? Dolby Surround in via matrix analog signal was available to him. You can Google Terry to see what's been reported about the remastering that was originally pressed for Laserdisc. I thought the Chicago Tribune's 1990 article was interesting because it referred back to previous releases that had dropped the surround sound and evidently was unpleasant to hear:

"... ``Fantasound``-the stereo system designed by Disney`s engineers in 1940, making ``Fantasia`` the first film with multi-channel sound. Digitally remastered by sound mixer Terry Porter from 1955 tapes, the ``Fantasia`` track has lost its hum and crackle but retained its startling inventiveness."
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 Post subject: Re: Fantasia sound track
PostPosted: 20 Jan 2017, 19:17 
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Quote:
I am currently setup for 5.0 surround (no subwoofer yet). I just replayed side 1 of Fantasia and checked for sound coming out of the center channel and heard nothing.


Somethings not setup right. I have a similar 5.0 setup that I use for listening to Fantasia and the center channel is used a lot, especially for Deems Taylor's narration.

Which LD player are you using? When you toggle between audio channels, what do you hear? You should have 4+ channels to choose from the source audio coming out of your player (digital, analog, L, R, ...)

I enable the absolutely genius invention by Jim Fosgate, aka. PLII processing on my AV receiver, to get the most out of the 2 channel matrixed Fantasia. :)
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 Post subject: Re: Fantasia sound track
PostPosted: 20 Jan 2017, 20:00 
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vap0rtranz wrote:
Quote:
I am currently setup for 5.0 surround (no subwoofer yet). I just replayed side 1 of Fantasia and checked for sound coming out of the center channel and heard nothing.


Somethings not setup right. I have a similar 5.0 setup that I use for listening to Fantasia and the center channel is used a lot, especially for Deems Taylor's narration.

Which LD player are you using? When you toggle between audio channels, what do you hear? You should have 4+ channels to choose from the source audio coming out of your player (digital, analog, L, R, ...)

I enable the absolutely genius invention by Jim Fosgate, aka. PLII processing on my AV receiver, to get the most out of the 2 channel matrixed Fantasia. :)


I don't have PLII processing on my AVR (that I know of) so there may not be any center channel sound using my setup. My LD player is a Pioneer CLD-D406 feeding video and optical audio into a Sony DA2ES AVR through a Sony SDP-E800 processor which is not doing any sound processing.

I checked my box set for a copyright date and could only find 1940 which is not right. I have to assume that the box set is from 1991.
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