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 Post subject: Tell me the whole story about JP's original mix, dad!
PostPosted: 30 Aug 2015, 05:48 
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Since the description of this subforum perfectly fits, I'd like to clarify the correct story supposed to be told by daddy once and for all after being totally confused by contradicting statements when it comes to the countless releases of Jurassic Park over the years:

In 2008, the amongst enthusiasts apparently quite famous and highly knowledgable Disclord in terms of cinema equipment and mixing, posted the following, referring to the JP DTS LD:

"The surround levels are encoded +3db too high and the sub is +10db too high ...".

Source:

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/18-dvd-pl ... scs-2.html

Now the entry under lddb.com states this, however:

"The channel settings for both the DTS and the THX trailers are incorrect. It sounds like all channels except the LFE have been routed to the wrong outputs (it's hard to find out what goes where), resulting in a diffuse and unstable soundfield. The rest of the movie plays fine and the channel settings are correct!"

Source:

http://www.lddb.com/laserdisc/09306/43115/Jurassic-Park


Then, end of 2011, some geeks came up with the project to preserve the original 5.1 mix from the DTS LaserDisc since many sound effects were altered and a weird echo during dialogs was said to be hearable on the new 7.1 mix of the Blu-ray release.

Source:

http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic. ... pic/13541/

Eventually, instead of taking the audio from the LaserDisc, they came up with the cinematric DTS source (APT-X100) instead, considered to be "the" original and holy grail to this point.

Comparing this to the (2D) Blu-ray's audio, I myself could verify that during the first raptor sequence and incident, the screeching comes from the front in the 5.1 mix whereas it's coming from behind on the new 7.1 mix, which is a contradiction to what Disclord wrote in his review some time ago, claiming that no sound effects where altered whatsoever:

http://www.quadraphonicquad.com/forums/ ... inal-Audio

Judging by the date, he posted this, he must have referred to the 2D version of the movie. Oh Disclord, if it's true what I read somewhere, here's my honor I wanna give you despite the fact that I never knew you.


For the ones who are still with me, it gets even "better", as the cinematric DTS source as well as at least the AC3 and apparently PCM LaserDisc versions contain weird distortions which are not present in the 7.1 mix:

http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic. ... Post736273

Either in fact several masters exist of this movie or they were somehow able to acoustically clean up the dialog track for the Blu-ray release and the slightly distorted one is the true original. I haven't heard the DTS LD yet but I'm keen on verifying if it derives from the same source as all the other non-BD-releases.

Last but not least, someone mentioned that there are apparently at least two different Blu-ray mixes around, one being peak-limited, the other not:

"The 2D has had peak limiting applied and makes things sound rather canned whereas the 3D is more dynamic with more refined deeper bass."

Source:

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/150-blu-r ... st35569514

The brick-walled one I saw myself in an editor, further contradicting Disclord's review, suggesting that it's basically the same mix. Even it is, the peak limited version would be technically worse and it's completely idiotic and unnecessary to do it anyway.


Would be nice if someone can help daddy to get the story straight for future kids.
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 Post subject: Re: Tell me the whole story about JP's original mix, dad!
PostPosted: 30 Aug 2015, 06:21 
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I haven't noticed distortions in the PCM CAV release of Jurassic Park, personally I find it to be clear and enjoyable, with themes and dialog not present in the VHS or DVD versions.
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 Post subject: Re: Tell me the whole story about JP's original mix, dad!
PostPosted: 31 Aug 2015, 18:28 
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What bugs me is ADR or production sound (region 2 DVD first pressing) at 0:29:08 Malcolm, when he appears in frame on the right side "But again" and watch careful. He's a brilliant "life finds away" Ventriloquism. He's smelling and wow forming words. Its a film at the end of the day that's bound to be plagued with sound flaws. Sound continuity.

In the next shot that is a bit further back with the camera, you can see words with lip movement. Its ADR or production sound that hasn't be synced correctly.

If you want to listen to some bad digital clipping noises try Ghostbusters II region 2 DVD its dreadful, the surrounds are plagued with it on and off.

Apollo 13 has digital clipping crackle on right surround when Saturn V , is starting up and only lasts 1 second. The same flaw is on first edition region 2 DVD to SE DVD region 2 to dts THX laserdisc to HD-DVD to bluray and region 1 DVD that I brought recently. So did that error occurred in the sound effects editing or on the dubbing stage or duplication mastering for all the mass produced formats? I guess will never know?

Region 1 DVD noise is at chapter 13, 34.49 right surround, you may have to mute LCR to listen to the surrounds careful.

The region 2 first pressing has loss of HF sound on centre channel during the nightmare scene the bass is on centre but the HF end is gone and recovers back to normal after the nightmare scene as finished. The dts laserdisc and HD-DVD bluray and SE DVD have no problems with this scene. Region 1 DVD has no problem with loss of HF on chapter 6.
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 Post subject: Re: Tell me the whole story about JP's original mix, dad!
PostPosted: 01 Sep 2015, 08:17 
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@thewhitefalcon

Thanks for sharing your experience, however, if you followed the link at originaltrilogy.com that I posted, this is yet another contradiction to what another user reported for the very same release as apparently there was only one CAV one, namely:

http://www.lddb.com/laserdisc/05724/41830/Jurassic-Park

Since he confirmed by observation, I'm afraid I have to assume that you just didn't notice. I mean, it's not super-distorted, but compared to the (2D-)BD 7.1 mix, it doesn't as sound as clean.

@laserbite34:

Thank you too. Without any offence, but reading your post makes me feel like I speak hardly any English. After all it's not my native language so it might be just that. Furthermore I don't know if it's supposed to be sarcastic since all soundtracks are some artifical object in the first place, unable to ever reach perfection so it's no avail anyway or meant truthfully.

After all, stating the flaws of other movies (I could add Mission Impossible for instance) doesn't really help in revealing what went wrong with Jurassic Park, does it?
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 Post subject: Re: Tell me the whole story about JP's original mix, dad!
PostPosted: 14 Jan 2016, 16:46 
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Since I recently finally had the chance to check the DTS version of Jurassic Park, I can confirm that the slight distortions occur there as well. So far, I assume that most versions share the same master except for the BD-release where they either had access to cleaner sources or they cleaned it up manually. So far, it's a mystery.
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 Post subject: Re: Tell me the whole story about JP's original mix, dad!
PostPosted: 20 Feb 2016, 12:46 
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I've heard that the DTS LD was mastered too loud, and the DVD was mastered too low. Before the new 3D BD with its new mix, as far as accuracy reference goes, it was the AC-3 LD that was the one to go for.
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 Post subject: Re: Tell me the whole story about JP's original mix, dad!
PostPosted: 09 Mar 2016, 07:16 
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I think what one is going to want is a home video version that maintains faith to the original theatrical mix.

For those lucky enough to have the DTS-6 rip sync'd to Blu-ray that the fellas at OT.com made, that is what you want for sure. It's terrific and EXACTLY what you would have heard in 1993 unless you saw it in optical Dolby Stereo.

I honestly have not done an A/B of it to the DTS/AC3 Lasers, but I can say that both lasers are VERY faithful to that mix, with the DTS always having more clarity to me, with surround and sub adjustments made.

The DVD is worthless. The Blu-ray audio is a complete re-mix, and while it sounds pretty good, it's totally unfaithful to the 1993 mix. To me, it too is worthless.

HONORABLE MENTION: The LPCM track on the CLV and CAV LaserDiscs. Very faithful, even in Pro-Logic.
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 Post subject: Re: Tell me the whole story about JP's original mix, dad!
PostPosted: 10 Mar 2016, 12:50 
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bmwzed3 wrote:
I think what one is going to want is a home video version that maintains faith to the original theatrical mix.

I agree, but still wonder how they managed the dialogs to sound cleaner on the Blu-ray-remix.

bmwzed3 wrote:
For those lucky enough to have the DTS-6 rip sync'd to Blu-ray that the fellas at OT.com made, that is what you want for sure.

I'm one of the lucky guys. My utmost thanks go to "borisanddoris" at this point. Keeping this treasure on three different harddrives in order to never lose it. :)

bmwzed3 wrote:
The Blu-ray audio is a complete re-mix, and while it sounds pretty good, it's totally unfaithful to the 1993 mix.

This is why I don't understand Disclord's review about the Blu-ray claiming that it contains essentially the same mix, which can hardly be true as the dialog on the remix sounds cleaner and the first raptor sound comes from the surround channel instead of the front at the beginning.

Maybe Disclord got some different version at that time, I don't know. After all, he was not any reviewer but THE person with in-depth knowledge about mixing and especially DTS as well.

bmwzed3 wrote:
HONORABLE MENTION: The LPCM track on the CLV and CAV LaserDiscs. Very faithful, even in Pro-Logic.

I guess they are all offsprings of the same master source, be it a PCM, AC3 or DTS encode with minor differences due to the channel levels.
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 Post subject: Re: Tell me the whole story about JP's original mix, dad!
PostPosted: 14 Mar 2016, 03:28 
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Gary Rydstrom himself went back to do the remix to 7.1 for the 3D re-release, and I think the studio may even have put out some marketing pieces in regards to it. I think that is the same mix that appears on all Blu-ray releases. It's certainly cleaned up, and like I said, it sounds good, but it's just wrong to my ears. The 1993 award winning mix was darn near perfect in every way and did not need a remix at all.

In theory, the LaserDisc AC3/DTS versions could sound better than the DTS-6 discs due to less compression (in the case of the DTS LaserDisc) but also the fact that cinema DTS was actually 5.0: the low frequency channel was mixed into the surrounds to conserve space and then directed inside the DTS processor. Thus, surrounds in cinema DTS only go from 80hz to 20khz. Many people said that because of this, SDDS and SRD were always going to be better. I've not always found that to be the case. So long as the CD drives were working and the time code was solid, DTS is extraordinarily reliable, at least, that was my experience among the three formats.
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 Post subject: Re: Tell me the whole story about JP's original mix, dad!
PostPosted: 21 Oct 2017, 03:34 
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Thanks for your valuable input, elitecld97. Sorry for catching up so late, a few days ago, someone posted about Jurassic Park in the forum originaltrilogy.com and thus somewhat revived my interest as well.

elitecld97 wrote:
It's certainly cleaned up, and like I said, it sounds good, but it's just wrong to my ears. The 1993 award winning mix was darn near perfect in every way and did not need a remix at all.

I totally agree but that means that Disclord's review doesn't really reflect the facts for some weird reason as this guy was known to be extremely knowledgable.

elitecld97 wrote:
Many people said that because of this, SDDS and SRD were always going to be better. I've not always found that to be the case.

In my opinion, there seems to be a widespread fetish for formats in general. Many people tend to prefer one format over the over for more psychological reasons than scientific evidence. Sure, there are differences but in my experience, even AC3 at 384 kBit/s can sound damn good if a proper mix is used. Hence, the mix is the most important part, then the format changes that very slightly depending on the bitrate and psychoacoustic model.

elitecld97 wrote:
So long as the CD drives were working and the time code was solid, DTS is extraordinarily reliable, at least, that was my experience among the three formats.

Do you happen to have the Cinema DTS CDs of Jurassic Park at hand (especially the 2nd one "B") by and chance? ;)
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