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 Post subject: Old films in 5.1 on Laserdisc
PostPosted: 29 Oct 2015, 09:30 
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There are many examples of 5.1 Dolby Digital and DTS remixes on DVD and Blu-Ray of older films where newly recorded elements of audio are added to create the 5.1 surround track which of coursse cause controversy to purists. I was wondering there seems to be many older films on LD from before 5.1 AC-3/Dolby Digital and DTS was a thing. Anyway, Is it the same deal with LD in regards to 5.1 remixes of older films that were never originally mixed in 5.1 in the first place?
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 Post subject: Re: Old films in 5.1 on Laserdisc
PostPosted: 29 Oct 2015, 19:37 
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I'm not a fan of recording new elements. I understand when there are no alternatives, like in the restoration of "Vertigo", but in general I'm against it. Now, going back to the original stems and creating a new 5.1 mix from actual original audio is okay in my book. There were only a handful of "old" films that got 5.1 treatment on LaserDisc. "Mookraker" and "The Spy Who Loved Me" were Stereo to begin with, as were "West Side Story" and "2001: A Space Oddity".

I know when Pioneer started doing 5.1 remixes of concerts toward the end (America Live, Pointer Sisters in Africa, BB King in Africa), they went back to the original multi-channel board audio and created the new soundtracks. Even "The Fly (1958) had a 3-channel stereo mix originally.
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 Post subject: Re: Old films in 5.1 on Laserdisc
PostPosted: 29 Oct 2015, 21:27 
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blam1 wrote:
I'm not a fan of recording new elements. I understand when there are no alternatives, like in the restoration of "Vertigo", but in general I'm against it. Now, going back to the original stems and creating a new 5.1 mix from actual original audio is okay in my book. There were only a handful of "old" films that got 5.1 treatment on LaserDisc. "Moonraker" and "The Spy Who Loved Me" were Stereo to begin with, as were "West Side Story" and "2001: A Space Odyssey".

I know when Pioneer started doing 5.1 remixes of concerts toward the end (America Live, Pointer Sisters in Africa, BB King in Africa), they went back to the original multi-channel board audio and created the new soundtracks. Even "The Fly (1958) had a 3-channel stereo mix originally.


i'm generally against 5.1 remixes


Last edited by elieb on 11 Nov 2015, 01:24, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Old films in 5.1 on Laserdisc
PostPosted: 30 Oct 2015, 06:04 
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Some of those AC-3 tracks comes from 65/70mm 6 track original soundtracks. I can think of 2001, Alien, Top Gun for now. 6 tracks are left, right, center, left wide/bass, right wide/bass and mono rear. So it isn't a 1:1 recreation in AC-3 but close enough. Some later 6-track used split surrounds.
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 Post subject: Re: Old films in 5.1 on Laserdisc
PostPosted: 30 Oct 2015, 08:31 
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What about the films that are not from 65/70mm 6 track original soundtracks like Rocky (1976) (which was later remixed in 5.1 AC-3), and The Thing (1982)? Both those as I understand it were recorded in stereo, and the earlier LD releases of the respected films reflect that. Are the AC-3 5.1 versions of both those films on LD respectively created from the orignal audio stem files? or were newly recorded audio elements added to those AC-3 5.1 tracks?
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 Post subject: Re: Old films in 5.1 on Laserdisc
PostPosted: 30 Oct 2015, 19:39 
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Generally, they are not going to create new audio elements. They will return to the stems and produce a new mix. Vertigo was a special case. They had the original mono elements, dialog and score, but found that Bernard Herrmann had actually recorded the score in stereo. They had Hitchcock's original foley notes and decided to rebuild the film in stereo, using as much of the original audio as possible, but having to create new audio in some instances.
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 Post subject: Re: Old films in 5.1 on Laserdisc
PostPosted: 31 Oct 2015, 03:33 
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blam1 wrote:
Generally, they are not going to create new audio elements. They will return to the stems and produce a new mix. Vertigo was a special case. They had the original mono elements, dialog and score, but found that Bernard Herrmann had actually recorded the score in stereo. They had Hitchcock's original foley notes and decided to rebuild the film in stereo, using as much of the original audio as possible, but having to create new audio in some instances.

Ohh ok. So the adding new audio elements to create 5.1/7.1 surround sound audio tracks for some older films started with DVD and continued with BD? This sorta thing (with the exception of Vetigo) never happened with LD? So all the re-created AC-3/DTS 5.1 audio was respectfully engineered?
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 Post subject: Re: Old films in 5.1 on Laserdisc
PostPosted: 02 Nov 2015, 19:11 
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alien wrote:
blam1 wrote:
Generally, they are not going to create new audio elements. They will return to the stems and produce a new mix. Vertigo was a special case. They had the original mono elements, dialog and score, but found that Bernard Herrmann had actually recorded the score in stereo. They had Hitchcock's original foley notes and decided to rebuild the film in stereo, using as much of the original audio as possible, but having to create new audio in some instances.

Ohh ok. So the adding new audio elements to create 5.1/7.1 surround sound audio tracks for some older films started with DVD and continued with BD? This sorta thing (with the exception of Vetigo) never happened with LD? So all the re-created AC-3/DTS 5.1 audio was respectfully engineered?


Respectfully? Not according to some purists. :lol: One would hope the original filmmakers are involved in creating new audio mixes.
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 Post subject: Re: Old films in 5.1 on Laserdisc
PostPosted: 11 Nov 2015, 01:26 
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can you confirm that die hard ac-3 reissue has the 70mm audio mix/mono surrounds, stereo surrounds for the sequel, and the 70mm mix for top gun?
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 Post subject: Re: Old films in 5.1 on Laserdisc
PostPosted: 11 Nov 2015, 01:38 
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Top gun jacket states its ac-3 mix is derived from the 6 track recording.


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 Post subject: Re: Old films in 5.1 on Laserdisc
PostPosted: 11 Nov 2015, 03:16 
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elieb wrote:
can you confirm that die hard ac-3 reissue has the 70mm audio mix/mono surrounds, stereo surrounds for the sequel, and the 70mm mix for top gun?

I have stated this a few years ago. Its about as identical to the what I remember listening too at the cinema with the 35mm Dolby optical mix to VHS Hi-Fi rental p/s to Fox, VHS letterbox edition early 90's I can't recall :oops: much from the PAL Encore release that I owned a short while before I brought the THX AC-3 pressing and then regretted selling it around early 2000's then re-brought it new a few years ago when I got AC-3 set-up. The DVD region 1 and 2 are the same with sound effects in the wrong screen channel locations. So safe bet is DIE HARD on early letterbox, THX AC-3, one member failed to confirm about the bluray so I have to assume the bluray is a pass.
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 Post subject: Re: Old films in 5.1 on Laserdisc
PostPosted: 12 Nov 2015, 23:10 
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DH 1 and 2 appear to be the same mix across THX LD, DVD SE and Blu-ray. DH3 also appears to be the same.
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 Post subject: Re: Old films in 5.1 on Laserdisc
PostPosted: 20 Nov 2015, 20:00 
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alien wrote:
What about the films that are not from 65/70mm 6 track original soundtracks like Rocky (1976) (which was later remixed in 5.1 AC-3), and The Thing (1982)? Both those as I understand it were recorded in stereo, and the earlier LD releases of the respected films reflect that. Are the AC-3 5.1 versions of both those films on LD respectively created from the original audio stem files? or were newly recorded audio elements added to those AC-3 5.1 tracks?


Dolby Stereo films like Rocky and The Thing, and even mono films, if the original audio stems are still around and usable, they can go in and remix the soundtrack for a 5.1 presentation from those original elements. It's not that they are inventing the track from existing Stereo (4:2:4) tracks, but rebuilding the soundtrack from the same elements used to create the Stereo track in the first place.

With a bunch of the catalog titles coming out on Blu-ray now, some are reverting back to the original 2.0 Pro-Logic track. This makes me question the curious about the creation of these tracks. Here are a couple of examples.

Tootsie, Brazil and A Room with a View are all on DVD from their respective studios with 5.1 (or 5.0) audio tracks. When Criterion issued the titles on Blu-Ray, they are all the original 2.0 tracks. Why wouldn't Criterion use the studio created multi-channel masters?

Disney created a 5.1 mix for "The Love Bug" and "The Apple Dumpling Gang" Special Editions on DVD, but when the Blu-Ray was issued, both are back to Mono.

Just makes me wonder...
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 Post subject: Re: Old films in 5.1 on Laserdisc
PostPosted: 22 Nov 2015, 22:15 
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Like an old fashion mono soundtrack myself but most soundtracks remastered make me smile. How do they manage to create it anyway?
I like the Vertigo dts laserdisc. One of my favourite discs. The cover is superb, the sound is "nostalgic" dts mastered... very good effort for a movie this old IMHO.

Long live surround sound :clap:
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