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 Post subject: Pictures or videos of Muse Hi-Vision discs
PostPosted: 18 Apr 2012, 10:39 
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Can anyone please post videos or pictures of the MUSE Hi-Vision laserdiscs in action on your display? I would love to get a good idea of how the quality of the movies were (which I hear were no wear near as good as the demo video discs due to actual second rate film-to-video transfers) but regardless, I would love to see still images or videos of these bad boys in action. Am I correct in saying that the resolution of this format is equivalent to 1080i today? If so then that is pretty good for analog HD in the early 90s. Seems this format was well ahead of its time.

And another side question; how does the very best quality of Muse compare to Blu-Ray or even other older HD formats like D-VHS?

thanks
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 Post subject: Re: Pictures or videos of Muse Hi-Vision discs
PostPosted: 18 Apr 2012, 10:42 
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Hi alien, welcome to the forum!

There's a similar topic already which can be found here. It features a lot of discussion and screen captures of MUSE discs in action.

Hope this helps.
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 Post subject: Re: Pictures or videos of Muse Hi-Vision discs
PostPosted: 19 Apr 2012, 05:47 
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Hi hippiedalek, thank you.

Thanks, but I've already seen that thread (which I probably should have mentioned in my OP.)

Would still love to see actual pictures or videos or whatever of movies on Muse. I also would like to know how Muse compares with D-VHS (since they are both older HD formats that pre-date HD-DVD & Blu-Ray.)
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 Post subject: Re: Pictures or videos of Muse Hi-Vision discs
PostPosted: 19 Apr 2012, 08:57 
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D-VHS kicks arse, the movies that I used to have looked very much like Blu-Ray.
MUSE movies don't look so hot, so if you compare the two, D-VHS has an easy win.
Not to forget the other thing: D-VHS has Dolby Digital/dts Audio.
MUSE has some obscure surround format that isn't very exciting nowadays anymore.

Cheers!
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 Post subject: Re: Pictures or videos of Muse Hi-Vision discs
PostPosted: 19 Apr 2012, 19:12 
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I've taken some video of MUSE in action, but I failed to account for the effect of shutter speed versus colour-wheel drift when using a single-chip DLP projector. The result is shifts in colour & brightness which don't appear in real life. I'll have to redo it. I'm hoping to rebuild my computer so that it can do analog HD capture, too.
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 Post subject: Re: Pictures or videos of Muse Hi-Vision discs
PostPosted: 19 Apr 2012, 20:30 
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When HD-DVD and Blu-ray came out I really expected bootleg transfers of Hi-Vision discs on HD recordable media. I kept hoping some would show up, but it never seemed to happen.
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 Post subject: Re: Pictures or videos of Muse Hi-Vision discs
PostPosted: 20 Apr 2012, 03:34 
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publius wrote:
I've taken some video of MUSE in action, but I failed to account for the effect of shutter speed versus colour-wheel drift when using a single-chip DLP projector. The result is shifts in colour & brightness which don't appear in real life. I'll have to redo it. I'm hoping to rebuild my computer so that it can do analog HD capture, too.

Awesome. Please post the videos as soon as you record them. I am getting more and more curious of measuring for myself how the quality stacks up for an older HD format.
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 Post subject: Re: Pictures or videos of Muse Hi-Vision discs
PostPosted: 17 Oct 2012, 09:20 
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Bump!

So does anyone have any pictures or videos to show of MUSE Hi-Vision discs in action yet?
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 Post subject: Re: Pictures or videos of Muse Hi-Vision discs
PostPosted: 20 Oct 2012, 13:12 
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Dolby Digital on D-theater tapes were/are at 640kbps(highest allowed for DD) and DTS is at 1.5mbps(highest allowed for DTS). They also have 2ch PCM audio tracks at CD quality. Video bandwitdh is 28mbps with mpeg-2. I don't think MUSE can compete with D-Theater in anyway.
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 Post subject: Re: Pictures or videos of Muse Hi-Vision discs
PostPosted: 20 Oct 2012, 16:46 
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substance wrote:
I don't think MUSE can compete with D-Theater in anyway.

People I've conversed with have stated that it is very difficult to tell any difference, at least on video-sourced material. Film-sourced material suffers from the problem that the film transfers for MUSE discs are generally 10 years older.

As far as the audio side goes, a MUSE disc can have a CD-type PCM audio track just as a standard LD has, & if it's two-channel, the B-Mode audio is supposed to be indistinguishable from 16/48 PCM. A-Mode 4-channel sounds remarkably good, in fact.

Considering the very great differences between the technologies, evaluation by arm-waving isn't very useful.
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 Post subject: Re: Pictures or videos of Muse Hi-Vision discs
PostPosted: 22 Oct 2012, 00:46 
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here is some live footage of muse at least, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eee96ThOoBw though i have sold the unit and the movie now, so can't do any better :/ but i wasn't really amazed by muse, i pretty much prefer regular ld over muse i guess =)
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 Post subject: Re: Pictures or videos of Muse Hi-Vision discs
PostPosted: 22 Oct 2012, 01:31 
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cpix wrote:
here is some live footage of muse at least, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eee96ThOoBw though i have sold the unit and the movie now, so can't do any better :/ but i wasn't really amazed by muse, i pretty much prefer regular ld over muse i guess =)

Thanks cpix! Even though that YouTube footage doesn't show it, but that looks like it could look pretty good seeing it live in person. I presume Jurassic Park on MUSE still destroys the DVD version of Jurassic Park am I correct?

And also why do you prefer regular LD? Wouldn't MUSE absolutely destroy it in terms of quality since its a HD format and all..
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 Post subject: Re: Pictures or videos of Muse Hi-Vision discs
PostPosted: 22 Oct 2012, 03:05 
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alien wrote:
I presume Jurassic Park on MUSE still destroys the DVD version of Jurassic Park am I correct?

I have seen a comparison somewhere. It turns out the DVD was made from the same HD video master as the MUSE LD, but the black level is significantly different.
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 Post subject: Re: Pictures or videos of Muse Hi-Vision discs
PostPosted: 23 Oct 2012, 01:31 
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publius wrote:
alien wrote:
I presume Jurassic Park on MUSE still destroys the DVD version of Jurassic Park am I correct?

I have seen a comparison somewhere. It turns out the DVD was made from the same HD video master as the MUSE LD, but the black level is significantly different.

Really? Interesting. I have the DVD and up-converted to 1080i on my DVD upscaler, it looks pretty good. I'd still imagine though that the MUSE version would look better since that uses a native equivalent resolution of 1080i where as an upscaling DVD player is at the source just 480p. Anyway I'd love to see that comparsen for myself if its online some where.
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 Post subject: Re: Pictures or videos of Muse Hi-Vision discs
PostPosted: 23 Oct 2012, 03:09 
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cpix wrote:
here is some live footage of muse at least, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eee96ThOoBw though i have sold the unit and the movie now, so can't do any better :/ but i wasn't really amazed by muse, i pretty much prefer regular ld over muse i guess =)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FC4o6Cw ... el&list=UL

I commented on your video on the above and its true it does sound like sand-paper like as the disc is slipping or sliding between what used to be a rubber-ring that grips the disc along with clamp that is pressing the disc down.

BTW that Jurassic Park Muse was cool. How does the Muse 4 channel work or even sound is it discrete audio LCR and with only mono surround rather than stereo surround?
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 Post subject: Re: Pictures or videos of Muse Hi-Vision discs
PostPosted: 23 Oct 2012, 13:33 
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laserbite34 wrote:
cpix wrote:
here is some live footage of muse at least, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eee96ThOoBw though i have sold the unit and the movie now, so can't do any better :/ but i wasn't really amazed by muse, i pretty much prefer regular ld over muse i guess =)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FC4o6Cw ... el&list=UL

I commented on your video on the above and its true it does sound like sand-paper like as the disc is slipping or sliding between what used to be a rubber-ring that grips the disc along with clamp that is pressing the disc down.

BTW that Jurassic Park Muse was cool. How does the Muse 4 channel work or even sound is it discrete audio LCR and with only mono surround rather than stereo surround?


ah, thats you =) i only used the analog stereo output on the muse, as i only use a stereo amplifier =)
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 Post subject: Re: Pictures or videos of Muse Hi-Vision discs
PostPosted: 23 Oct 2012, 16:51 
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alien wrote:
cpix wrote:
here is some live footage of muse at least, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eee96ThOoBw though i have sold the unit and the movie now, so can't do any better :/ but i wasn't really amazed by muse, i pretty much prefer regular ld over muse i guess =)

Thanks cpix! Even though that YouTube footage doesn't show it, but that looks like it could look pretty good seeing it live in person. I presume Jurassic Park on MUSE still destroys the DVD version of Jurassic Park am I correct?

And also why do you prefer regular LD? Wouldn't MUSE absolutely destroy it in terms of quality since its a HD format and all..


Well, it looks OK, but it's nothing fancy as one would expect. the LD has a very green tint all over it, which annoyed me a tiny bit. As for the image quality, its not far off from regular LD, there are more detail obviously, but not enough to justify spending about 150 dollars or more per movie. It might be better than the DVD, i watch the regular LD over the DVD any day =) I think MUSE is an acquired taste and must be seen in person. I was supposed to do video capture of it, but then i sold the unit and didn't get the chance to. I do have a feeling im gonna end up buying a new decoder, they aren't that expensive on yahoo anyway =)

- pix
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 Post subject: Re: Pictures or videos of Muse Hi-Vision discs
PostPosted: 23 Oct 2012, 17:41 
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cpix wrote:
Well, it looks OK, but it's nothing fancy as one would expect. the LD has a very green tint all over it, which annoyed me a tiny bit.

There's a menu adjustment on the Sony MSC-3000 & MSC-4000 decoders to change the tint. It runs from "more green" to "more blue". There's also a "warm/cool" menu adjustment. Between the two of those, I suspect the 'green tint' people speak of as regards these decoders could be dealt with.

laserbite34 wrote:
How does the Muse 4 channel work or even sound is it discrete audio LCR and with only mono surround rather than stereo surround?

Yes, A-Mode is 4-channel discrete digital audio, LCRS. Sampling is 15 bits 32 kHz, with differencing & companding to 8 bits with 8 ranges (allocated per-channel), multiplexed into the vertical interval, 8 full lines + 8 partial lines, as a 3-level signal with a sampling frequency of 12.15 MHz. I understand that, in satellite broadcasts, poor reception could lead to a 'gravelly' noise due to a high level of 1-bit errors. The LD format is prone to fewer of those, but more long dropouts, so additional error correction is applied.
The one A-Mode disc I have sounds very good.
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 Post subject: Re: Pictures or videos of Muse Hi-Vision discs
PostPosted: 23 Oct 2012, 18:09 
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publius wrote:

Yes, A-Mode is 4-channel discrete digital audio, LCRS. Sampling is 15 bits 32 kHz, with differencing & companding to 8 bits with 8 ranges (allocated per-channel), multiplexed into the vertical interval, 8 full lines + 8 partial lines, as a 3-level signal with a sampling frequency of 12.15 MHz. I understand that, in satellite broadcasts, poor reception could lead to a 'gravelly' noise due to a high level of 1-bit errors. The LD format is prone to fewer of those, but more long dropouts, so additional error correction is applied.
The one A-Mode disc I have sounds very good.


I see and was this audio format soon dropped in favour for Dolby AC-3 and dts that each hold up to 6 channel discrete.

Was the Muse 4 channel a first attempt in discrete audio on Laserdisc, I guess so? :)

Gravelly noise? I can picture the way that sounds.
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 Post subject: Re: Pictures or videos of Muse Hi-Vision discs
PostPosted: 23 Oct 2012, 20:59 
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laserbite34 wrote:
I see and was this audio format soon dropped in favour for Dolby AC-3 and dts that each hold up to 6 channel discrete.

Was the Muse 4 channel a first attempt in discrete audio on Laserdisc, I guess so? :)

As far as multi-channel discrete digital audio, Hi-Vision LD was first, coming out in 1992. (I understand that there were experiments with 4-channel analog audio, using sum/difference encoding with a subcarrier, & some discs had up to 4 separate audio channels, on analog & digital tracks, which were not meant to be listened to at the same time.) Of course, because the A-Mode audio is part of the MUSE format, it cannot be used on NTSC LD. Plus, it requires a MUSE decoder. If Hi-Vision LD had become more common, as originally intended, it is possible that neither AC-3 nor dts would have been implemented on NTSC. (Although a Hi-Vision LD could have a dts track, this was probably never done even as an experiment.) I think the decision not to introduce Hi-Vision LD in the US was a big mistake ; there was a lot of work done on cheaper players & decoders, & an internal decoder/downconverter would have been possible, allowing even those without HDTV to watch the discs. Then there would have been no need for separate inventory versions of AC-3 & dts LDs, & so on. Just one 'plain-Jane' NTSC edition, & one MUSE edition with all the bells & whistles.

I wonder if I can make a multi-channel audio recording with my computer. I have a digital audio input, & decoders with digital audio outputs, but the problem is that there are separate outputs for 1/L+2/R & 3/C+4/S. I could record them separately, but getting the timing correct is a problem!
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