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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars: Episode I - The Phantom Menace on Laserdisc
PostPosted: 24 Aug 2012, 23:31 
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Sigh my Yamada DVD-RW is not really set-up yet and I've had 0 hours hands on with it so it took me 15mins to get this as it was recoding onto the HDD and then I managed to transfer it to DVD-RW so I can play it on the pc sigh. Don't ask me for any more tonight its tricky and its not really set-up yet as I'd like to make as good quality ones possible with it.

There's a little rainbow colouring in the image.

Well no mistaking this as the THX Laserdisc with subtitles.
Image

STAR WARS Ep1 DVD THX R2
Image

In some ways far the image is a little more detailed on the R2 without the D2. :lol:

Once I've chilled out as I'm under stress right now with hundred things to do to the home cinema, but if I can do it I'm willing to help out even if you wanted personal help with the home I'm always willing to help out.

Also the reports the framing on DVD was wrong as it was not zoomed out enough to show the full 2.35:1 frame and the LD looks to be the same.

When viewing on CRT the LD looks wonderful, on the screen capture on the pc monitor it shows roughness over the DVD and bluray looking better but that doesn't mean I'm 100% supporter of bluray.

The pros and cons with this is image is a bit low-key on Laserdisc but it is the only legit one on the planet with theatrical six-track Dolby Stereo Digital-EX.

The DVD is extended and no did George put a theatrical release so we can at least chose? Nope.

So its great that some of us has the LD take it or leave it.

Would I play the DVD no would I play the bluray with its cinematic appeal no, I'd now use the force to reach out my feelings, yes and LD I shall play. :mrgreen:

Side 2 playing now pod racing just listening to the 14 speakers is enough to give me flashbacks of 1999 seeing it in the daytime, and going home then seeing it again late night at I think 11pm or 11:30pm? was just cool sat at the front on what used to be a Cinerama screen with nice sloping floor rising up and curving around allows for a decent stereo openness.

The screen looks like this today the screen has been moved forwards a bit and overall size increased with replacement of the seating what must be close to 40 years. The sidewalls use to be open that is the blue on the side is absorbent treatment it opens up with depth at least 12 feet to the sidewalls. Carpet has been replaced but the seating is the same expect for the middle row I think its stadium but I like the standard seating very comfy.

Image

I like soft scenes like chapter 18, 24.32 senator palpatine's dialouge as he walks left to right the Foley footsteps follows and when pausing the rustle is heard in the carpet on left or right, some passages of dialouge frequency could mask unless you have tonal controls over LF/HF 1/3 EQ some compression/limiting and matched LCR is important as well as keep all at the same hight titled down and left and right toed in a little to beam the tone over the seating to be heard.

That was what I heard first time at the Odeon screen 1 while sat front and centre/line.

Chapter 20, 30.50 "Vote Now Vote Now" has been deleted from bluray.

I recoded some con content a couple of mins but I keep forgetting how to import it from the players internal HDD to DVD-RW disc?

I managed to get this while the Pioneer was on digital freeze frame and recoded a couple of secs.

Image


Last edited by laserbite34 on 25 Aug 2012, 02:07, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars: Episode I - The Phantom Menace on Laserdisc
PostPosted: 25 Aug 2012, 02:06 
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tomtastic wrote:
I was just talking about home releases. There weren't any 6.1 DD, just DTS 6.1 ES matrix or discrete. DTS was the only 6.1. EP1 wasn't 6.1 just 5.1 EX on LD/DVD, I see it listed incorrectly as 6.1 in a lot of places. I played my copy of Ep 1 LD and on my Denon AVD-2000 the rear mono surround channel doesn't light up, leaving me to believe all that is true.


There were never any DTS ES Discrete theatrical releases - ever. The discrete ES format was developed for home use only due to Coherent Acoustics scalable nature. All extended surround mixes used the same matrix encoded center back.

The reason the center back light doesn't light on your Denin receiver when you play Ep 1 is because when the disc was released Dolby had not yet decided/defined which bit in the AC-3 control bits they would use to activate EX decoding. When they did finally define it, it turned out that some hardware companies didn't implement the AC-3 control software correctly and the "EX" bit triggered unpredictable behavior, so Dolby had to change it, leading to companies more often than not, not even bothering to set the EX bit flag on their DVD releases since it could be turned on manually and easily identified on the packaging.
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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars: Episode I - The Phantom Menace on Laserdisc
PostPosted: 25 Aug 2012, 02:19 
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Now I can see how it must have been confusing as the I was under the impression it was discrete but it was never installed in my home town at Odeon ABC or UCI at the time. So its a matrix slimmer than the Dolby SA10 at 1U frame size and offers 1/1 octave EQ bass and treble controls.

http://www.film-tech.com/warehouse/manuals/DTSES.pdf
Quote:
DTS-ES Discrete 6.1 is a true 6.1-channel format, as the back surround audio channel is discretely encoded into the DTS bitstream.
http://www.timefordvd.com/ref/dts-ES.shtml

And I guess the cinema version ether didn't have enough room to support it into the bit-stream on the dts-CD-rom caddy?

I'd like to get the five-screen up and running itching to get it done, so I at least playback five-screen matrix with half pans between left and centre and right and centre for wider stage.
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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars: Episode I - The Phantom Menace on Laserdisc
PostPosted: 25 Aug 2012, 03:09 
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Thank you so much laserbite34 for the direct screenshot comparsen between the Laserdisc version and the DVD version of the same scene! :clap:

I have to say that yeah, going by those screenshots, the Laserdisc version looks really rough and lacks the detail and clarity that I initially thought it would have had. The DVD version for all the EE criticism, again going by that screenshot comparsen that you posted, looks much better then the Laserdisc version, although I would LOVE to see MORE comparisons of the DVD vs Laserdisc versions of The Phantom Menace when you get the time to capture them! :)

I have seen the Blu-Ray version, it suffers from DNR in an attept to make it look more like the other 2 digitally shot prequels where as TPM was shot on 35mm film.


Last edited by alien on 25 Aug 2012, 03:32, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars: Episode I - The Phantom Menace on Laserdisc
PostPosted: 25 Aug 2012, 03:17 
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tomtastic wrote:
I could run mine through here in a bit, just wondering since someone posted DVD pics maybe they had the LD's to compare it to.

Feel free to also post pics of the Laserdisc version as well! The more comparisons between the DVD and Laserdisc versions of the same scenes, the better! :thumbup:
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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars: Episode I - The Phantom Menace on Laserdisc
PostPosted: 25 Aug 2012, 04:36 
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alien wrote:
Thank you so much laserbite34 for the direct screenshot comparsen between the Laserdisc version and the DVD version of the same scene! :clap:

I have to say that yeah, going by those screenshots, the Laserdisc version looks really rough and lacks the detail and clarity that I initially thought it would have had. The DVD version for all the EE criticism, again going by that screenshot comparsen that you posted, looks much better then the Laserdisc version, although I would LOVE to see MORE comparisons of the DVD vs Laserdisc versions of The Phantom Menace when you get the time to capture them! :)

I have seen the Blu-Ray version, it suffers from DNR in an attept to make it look more like the other 2 digitally shot prequels where as TPM was shot on 35mm film.

Glad you liked them. :)

I have to suss out how to switch the player to record on DVD-RW disc it keeps going over to the HDD so I must have switched to HDD and forgot how to switch it back, I'll have to get the manual out and read though unless someone else likes to do the captures, it takes about 2mins to record a few mins then 20secs to finalize and then load on the pc tower DVD player look for some good captures 2mins then capture and file them under name 2mins then upload them to photobucket 2mins and then post them here 2mins... so about 8/10mins at best.

If you squint your eyes like, Renee Zellweger the Laserdisc looks like a million bucks. :mrgreen:
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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars: Episode I - The Phantom Menace on Laserdisc
PostPosted: 25 Aug 2012, 04:49 
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I also have STAR WARS widescreen cards I was looking for the manual haven't found it yet then my attention was drawn to the cards I collected back around 1999 and 2002. These are single frames from the film and the brightness colour is priceless good for comparison.

Image

WOW just did a search and eBay has some like this

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/6-Topps-Star- ... _500wt_949

main page I still have some to collect lol.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_trksi ... s&_sacat=0
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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars: Episode I - The Phantom Menace on Laserdisc
PostPosted: 25 Aug 2012, 09:08 
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The Dvd may seem to look a bit better in those captures, but on my setup, the LD wins.
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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars: Episode I - The Phantom Menace on Laserdisc
PostPosted: 25 Aug 2012, 10:04 
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laserbite34 wrote:
I also have STAR WARS widescreen cards I was looking for the manual haven't found it yet then my attention was drawn to the cards I collected back around 1999 and 2002. These are single frames from the film and the brightness colour is priceless good for comparison.

WOW just did a search and eBay has some like this

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/6-Topps-Star- ... _500wt_949

main page I still have some to collect lol.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_trksi ... s&_sacat=0


You have never said if your television, projector and PC monitor have all been properly calibrated for correct D6500 gray scale, color decoding axis and red/green push, not to mention calibrated by source with color bars and a blue filter for your DVD, Blu-ray and LaserDisc players, since all 3 have different alignment settings for color levels, brightness/contrast, and with NTSC LD, tint, etc. Sadly, with LaserDisc players, none, even of the same model, have the same calibration settings and LaserDisc pressings vary from disc to disc, even from the same stamper, while still being fully within the NTSC or PAL spec. That's why Image Entertainment often, thankfully, included color bars at the end of discs they released for Fox and others, since the television could then be calibrated for that specific disc pressing itself.

I have an original Disctronics pressing of A Video Standard and when my set is calibrated with it, the LaserDisc of Video Essentials will show the set to be wildly miscalibrated in color, tint, brightness and contrast. Both discs are flawless pressings. For years NTSC LaserDisc's carried the VIR reference signals - even MCA DiscoVision discs have them - and the few VIR equipped sets that were made can automatically adjust and correct themselves to each individual disc and its flaws. Sadly, VIR was botched by the TV set makers by not including it and by the networks and local stations who would adjust the picture and insert a new VIR signal that had Bo relation to the original. So VIR sets ended up looking worse and people turned the VIR setting off. THX has been trying to attempt the same thing again with Blu-ray and THX certified televisions having the capability to read a THX signal generated for that specific title. Kind of an automatic THX Optimode. The THX LaserDisc program, back when it had ethics and actuallly meant something, was originally supposed to have a similar feature, but they never implemented it.
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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars: Episode I - The Phantom Menace on Laserdisc
PostPosted: 25 Aug 2012, 10:18 
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The DVD of Ep1 didn't have edge enhancement added to it on purpose - it was an artifact/bug of the downconversion program used to generate the 525 line signal from the HD digital master. The 625 line version didn't have as severe a programming error, so didn't have as much EE. The LaserDisc didn't have it because it was a true 1080i film transfer to digital and not post altered and stored on Hard drives, then altered some more before being downconverted to SD for DVD. The downconversion program was buggy - which, in my mind, should have meant a recall. Very similar to the Chroma Bug on some MPEG-2 DVD players and ALL video based interlaced MPEG-2 encoding due to the poorly written interlaced video chroma encoding method of MPEG-2 for DVD. Even the high definition D-Theater films and players had the Chroma Bug since JVC simply used four standard def MPEG-2 encoders to make one high def MPEG-2 encoded master.
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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars: Episode I - The Phantom Menace on Laserdisc
PostPosted: 27 Aug 2012, 19:48 
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I did a complete LD to digital transfer of the LD of EP1 over the weekend. Somehow I was able to enlarge the 2.35 frame and crop out the Jap subtitles that are located below the frame so it's now at 720x304 and requires no zooming with media players. I couldn't seem to do it on Final Approach awhile back which was left it in it's full SD frame with black bars and requires zooming on media player.

Also captured with AC3 5.1 at 384kb/s for track 1 and added a downmix ProLogic II track

The one thing wrong with the LD is it doesn't have English subtitles for the Alien translations. I added a new English subtitle SRT file, unfortunately the subtitles didn't match up, as the playback was off. I need to find one that matches, which might be hard coming from the LD, most are for the DVD or BD. Of course it's kind of a waste since you can just as easily watch the DVD or BD and have better picture. This transfer probably won't even go into my media player library, I'll keep it around just as a sample of a LD transfer. It's in two files because of it being on 3 sides. Side 1 and 2 made the first file as I just let the DVL-90 auto flip without stopping transfer and stopped for disc change for side 3.
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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars: Episode I - The Phantom Menace on Laserdisc
PostPosted: 28 Aug 2012, 10:50 
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tomtastic wrote:
I did a complete LD to digital transfer of the LD of EP1 over the weekend. Somehow I was able to enlarge the 2.35 frame and crop out the Jap subtitles that are located below the frame so it's now at 720x304 and requires no zooming with media players. I couldn't seem to do it on Final Approach awhile back which was left it in it's full SD frame with black bars and requires zooming on media player.

Also captured with AC3 5.1 at 384kb/s for track 1 and added a downmix ProLogic II track

The one thing wrong with the LD is it doesn't have English subtitles for the Alien translations. I added a new English subtitle SRT file, unfortunately the subtitles didn't match up, as the playback was off. I need to find one that matches, which might be hard coming from the LD, most are for the DVD or BD. Of course it's kind of a waste since you can just as easily watch the DVD or BD and have better picture. This transfer probably won't even go into my media player library, I'll keep it around just as a sample of a LD transfer. It's in two files because of it being on 3 sides. Side 1 and 2 made the first file as I just let the DVL-90 auto flip without stopping transfer and stopped for disc change for side 3.

Could you post some screenshots from the LD version and maybe even the DVD Version as well of the same scenes?
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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars: Episode I - The Phantom Menace on Laserdisc
PostPosted: 28 Aug 2012, 22:59 
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Yeah, I'll be getting some up here. I started doing some screen grabs, then just did a whole transfer of the LD so I can more easily grab them.

I can provide a short preview of the LD transfer to download as well. It has the AC3 5.1 if you have a way to bit stream it to a 5.1 system thru toslink or HDMI. Otherwise it will just be stereo or stereo surround.
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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars: Episode I - The Phantom Menace on Laserdisc
PostPosted: 28 Aug 2012, 23:09 
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STAR WARS EP1 LD 1 53MB.

This is about a 90 sec transfer of the LD. There are two audio tracks, if you can output 5.1 from your computer to receiver you can enable it, or just use the stereo surround.
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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars: Episode I - The Phantom Menace on Laserdisc
PostPosted: 28 Aug 2012, 23:09 
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I'll try to get some screen shots up later.
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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars: Episode I - The Phantom Menace on Laserdisc
PostPosted: 29 Aug 2012, 04:37 
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tomtastic wrote:
STAR WARS EP1 LD 1 53MB.

This is about a 90 sec transfer of the LD. There are two audio tracks, if you can output 5.1 from your computer to receiver you can enable it, or just use the stereo surround.

Thanks for the video preview there tomtastic! :)

Another thing you could do is perhaps post say for example that downloadable sample clip onto YouTube and do a side by side comparsen with the DVD version of the same scene.

Cant wait to see some more of those screenshots as well. :thumbup:
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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars: Episode I - The Phantom Menace on Laserdisc
PostPosted: 29 Aug 2012, 05:13 
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Here's some screen comparisons of the LD/DVD:

The Dolby Digital Train, this is pretty neat at the front of the LD, anyone know of another LD that uses this?
Image

LD - Comp 1
Image

DVD - Comp 1
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LD - Comp 2
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DVD - Comp 2
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LD - Comp 3
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DVD - Comp 3
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LD - Comp 4
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DVD - Comp 4
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LD - Comp 5
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DVD - Comp 5
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LD - Comp 6
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DVD - Comp 6
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LD - Comp 7
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DVD - Comp 7
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LD - Comp 8
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DVD - Comp 8
Image

Surprisingly, they're real close but you can see the DVD is just a little clearer. Notice in comp 4, 6, 8 the detail, color and even sharpness are very close. You really can't compare LD to DVD because DVD is a newer generation of tech and should look better. What you really have to notice/appreciate is how well the LD looks for being a much older tech. This is a really nice LD, it's too bad they didn't release it in US as it's missing the alien/english translation subtitles.

The reason to buy the LD of course isn't because it might be better than the DVD, because it's not better overall. The DVD wins in detail, color, sharpness, etc. It's mostly if you really like Star Wars or LD or both and want it in all formats. Aside from that it is a really good transfer for LD, one of the best I've seen so far. Basically, it looks really good for LD.
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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars: Episode I - The Phantom Menace on Laserdisc
PostPosted: 29 Aug 2012, 05:32 
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tomtastic wrote:
substance wrote:
First of all ac-3,dts on laserdisc or any media are lossy and compressed. Ac3 on ld is more compressed and lossy then anything else at only 384kbps. (I.e 448kbps for dvd). Digital tracks are uncompressed and lossless but only in stereo which can give you dolby stereo at best.
Dolby truehd,dts-hd ma are compressed but lossless. Lpcm 5.1 on bd is lossless and uncompressed.
Yamaha and denon had dd 5.1ex receivers in early 2000. Denon had avr 5700(avca10 in eu) and yamaha dsp a2. The name was thx surround ex back then. Later in 2001 dts es/ex receivers were released. First home video media was sw1 ld with 5.1ex. Later there were many dvds, the haunting,terminator 2 ultimate edition had dts es and dd ex.


Yeah, I know all that, just trying to understand how laserbite had a 6.1 setup in '98 (before any 5.1EX movies) and that some had said above that EP 1 was 6.1, just wondering. You can find a complete list of 5.1 EX/DTS ES at the link I provided.


Something I read...somewhere, I can't remember where, said that Ep1 was 6.1 but your receiver won't identify it as such because the standard had not yet been finalized and so there was no flag for it. If you manually set your receiver up for it, it will run in 6.1. Supposedly.

I'm not expert though. I only have a 5.1 setup. I do know that Ep 1 is total garbage though and certainly not worth a discussion this intense! :)
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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars: Episode I - The Phantom Menace on Laserdisc
PostPosted: 29 Aug 2012, 05:43 
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The thing is there was never a 6.1 Dolby Digital. It's just 5.1 EX. The only 6.1 source was DTS 6.1 discrete.
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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars: Episode I - The Phantom Menace on Laserdisc
PostPosted: 29 Aug 2012, 05:49 
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As for how great the film is, it's a matter of opinion. I think the new films have way too much CGI, personally. I prefer the older ones, they just look better with models and puppets, costumes better actors. I would have done something different for Jar Jar, eliminate him altogether, create a totally different indigenous population. I think that's what makes Phantom Menace the worst of the series.
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