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chrisw6atv
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Post subject: Laser Disc "player quality" heresy Posted: 04 Oct 2023, 01:58 |
Honest fan |
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Joined: 28 Sep 2023, 06:27 Posts: 92 Location: United States Has thanked: 37 times Been thanked: 28 times
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Hi all- I just fixed my Pioneer CLD-D704 a couple of days ago, so I have watched a couple of discs on it now. I also pulled out and tested a Pioneer PR-8210 (top-opening tube player built in 1983) that I bought for maybe US$15 about ten years ago, more from curiosity (now) than anything. I had also bought a PR-8210 new in about 1986 for US$250 at a local electronics chain when that was half or less of the typical price for any laser disc player. Regarding player quality comparisons: For years, probably going back to the late 1990s, I had always heard a similar set of comments regarding performance of players sold in the USA. Essentially, they -always- were something like this: "You need a CLD-D703 or 704 for decent quality (or really, a CLD-79 or 99 in fact). But a 503/504 or 600-series is sort of OK, maybe 80% as good as a 704. You should not bother with a CLD-1010/3030/3080 or similar, those old models are maybe 50% as good as a 703/704. And, don't even think about an LD-700 or 838, much less the stone-age top-loading tube players. Good luck getting even 5-10% of the quality of a '704 out of those!" The typical comments did not have actual percent numbers in them, I just added those to emphasize how the further details of what is/was lacking in non-703/704 players (all of the filters, noise reduction, and so on) made everything sound. Last night, after watching a Japanese import concert disc Genesis Live: Live - The Mama Tour (1984) [TELP-45037] I decided to put the same disc into my PR-8210 and see how it looked and sounded. This disc, as with most rock concert discs, is full of scenes that may have only one color lighting up a musician with an otherwise black background, a good torture test for NTSC color-noise among other things (and a test that shows the limitations of NTSC, and especially encoding in home-video formats, perhaps more than any other). The first song on the disc, "Abacab", is one of my all-time favorites of any music type/artist, so I have watched this performance many times. Here is the "heresy" part: After comparing these two players, yes indeed, there is a difference, and the CLD-D704 is better, but WOW, I kept looking for the supposed "giant differences in quality" or whatever, and I --just do not see them--. I looked at detail/resolution, edge enhancement/ringing/overshoot, color noise, black level consistency, background video noise, color consistency, the sound quality, anything I could think of (except video dropouts; apparently the disc I have is flawless, unless my TV set knows how to hide things). Specifically in video noise and color noise, the CLD-D704 is visibly better, but maybe ten percent if even that. I have been picky with video since I was a teenager in the 1970s, when I bought a Sony 19-inch color TV set new, and it is also (of course) why I got into laser discs in 1984 when everyone else was renting tapes instead. So, with over 40 years of looking and learning and understanding what makes video good or bad, I think I reasonably know what I am seeing. Obviously, the '704 is a vastly better machine overall in usability, features, and more, but those are all not what the comparisons have discussed. What do you all think?
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laserfanhld-gb
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Post subject: Re: Laser Disc "player quality" heresy Posted: 05 Oct 2023, 13:45 |
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Joined: 28 Jun 2019, 18:26 Posts: 569 Location: UK Has thanked: 258 times Been thanked: 237 times
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Yes, definitely strongly agree with the suggestion from kimlaughton regarding modern external comb filters/scalers etc. Certainly in my own setup the video performance gap between the CLD-925 & HLD-X9 is hugely reduced when the signal is fed through the Lumagen R2144 although the X9 is still the clear leader but just not massively so! Great idea about video captures also, though I’m not sure two of my current trio of players being European PAL/NTSC models are of much interest to the bulk of our members outside of Europe except for maybe Australia/New Zealand? Thanks for the Heads Up re: The Mama Tour disc PQ Chrisw6atv If the audio is also up to par then I may consider grabbing a copy
_________________ Pioneer HLD-X9/CLD-925/CLD-2950 OPPO BDP-105D EU ARCAM AVR-600 JVC DLA-X7000BE Lumagen Radiance 2144
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kimlaughton
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Post subject: Re: Laser Disc "player quality" heresy Posted: 06 Oct 2023, 02:29 |
Genuinely interested |
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Joined: 04 Jan 2023, 03:56 Posts: 32 Location: Japan Has thanked: 31 times Been thanked: 14 times
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signofzeta wrote: It’s the changes in display. If you were still using an SD CRT you’d still see huge differences in players. The process of digitizing everything and converting it to HD more or less puts every player in the same ball park. Not to disagree, but why would a low res crt which generally tends to be very forgiving to issues with a source in this case reveal more?
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rein-o
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Post subject: Re: Laser Disc "player quality" heresy Posted: 06 Oct 2023, 03:03 |
Jedi Master |
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Joined: 03 May 2004, 19:05 Posts: 8116 Location: Dullaware Has thanked: 1227 times Been thanked: 851 times
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kimlaughton wrote: signofzeta wrote: It’s the changes in display. If you were still using an SD CRT you’d still see huge differences in players. The process of digitizing everything and converting it to HD more or less puts every player in the same ball park. Not to disagree, but why would a low res crt which generally tends to be very forgiving to issues with a source in this case reveal more? Because LD was an analog format and you can really tell the differences between players and discs with the same SD CRT set. Even if you had an SD projector you can really tell, not as much with newer LED, LCD or other sets, I've never had a plasma but heard they were the best for LD playback after CRT. Even cables made a huge difference when running through CRTs
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chrisw6atv
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Post subject: Re: Laser Disc "player quality" heresy Posted: 06 Oct 2023, 20:08 |
Honest fan |
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Joined: 28 Sep 2023, 06:27 Posts: 92 Location: United States Has thanked: 37 times Been thanked: 28 times
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signofzeta wrote: If you were still using an SD CRT you’d still see huge differences in players. The process of digitizing everything and converting it to HD more or less puts every player in the same ball park. If I may ask, does this process typically make most players look pretty good, or does it make most players look mediocre? (I am aware, of course, that displays have quality differences, too. My "good" display now is a Sony 77-inch OLED set, which I would expect to be among the better ones available.)
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signofzeta
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Post subject: Re: Laser Disc "player quality" heresy Posted: 07 Oct 2023, 18:59 |
Jedi Knight |
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Joined: 14 Jan 2010, 09:44 Posts: 6002 Location: Ann Arbor Has thanked: 1303 times Been thanked: 1115 times
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chrisw6atv wrote: signofzeta wrote: If you were still using an SD CRT you’d still see huge differences in players. The process of digitizing everything and converting it to HD more or less puts every player in the same ball park. If I may ask, does this process typically make most players look pretty good, or does it make most players look mediocre? (I am aware, of course, that displays have quality differences, too. My "good" display now is a Sony 77-inch OLED set, which I would expect to be among the better ones available.) Playing SD video on new displays tends to group all players closer because the display is capable of so much more resolution and dynamic range than what’s on an LD. They all look mediocre compared to the HD or 4K signals you’re supposed to be using on that TV. An NTSC signal has not even 1/4 of of the picture information of an Blu-ray so the TV fills in the differences. This is why all LD players look the same, they look like your TVs conversion process. Your TV goes to 11 and LD goes to like…3, so the 3 has to be re-transcribed at 11 levels. The taste of the Kool Aid is dependent on the taste of the water it’s made with because it’s %95 water. LD players were tuned for CRTs. All NTSC LD players played NTSC LDs but some have more chroma noise than others and new TVs can eliminate it which blends noisy and non-noisy players together...or sometimes an TV gets so busy rendering noise it makes the overall picture worse. A CRT with high saturation may not even be able to render noise that is very obvious on a flat panel. An S201 playing a submarine movie is like…nasty, on the disc itself, but there are ways of reducing it intentionally or unintentionally, by the nature of the design. PVMs rarely do wonders for LD or any movie sources since they usually have zero movie-centric features. They are meant for bug checking and verification of analog signals, not to disguise any fault but more likely to bring them out as that’s what they were made for.
_________________ All about LD care, inner sleeves, shrink wrap, etc.
https://youtu.be/b3O-vHpHRpM
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chrisw6atv
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Post subject: Re: Laser Disc "player quality" heresy Posted: 09 Oct 2023, 00:39 |
Honest fan |
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Joined: 28 Sep 2023, 06:27 Posts: 92 Location: United States Has thanked: 37 times Been thanked: 28 times
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I appreciate your detailed comments, signofzeta. Certainly when I say both players I tested look good, it is within and understanding the limits of NTSC color and standard-definition video in general.
I do not know what "movie-centric features" might be on an NTSC CRT display; it was about 1989 or so when I first learned about proper color temperature for correct color rendition, along with "red push" and other deliberate manipulations of otherwise-potentially-accurate signal displays. In that era, I do not remember any direct-view CRT display considered to be superior to a Sony XBR Pro (once its color temperature and other settings had been properly calibrated), and this was among movie/video enthusiasts. (Or, are the ability to calibrate, and the lack of red push or other distortions, what you are describing as "movie-centric"?) Thanks.
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