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MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project
https://forum.lddb.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=3134		 Page 6 of 10
Author:  tomtastic [ 01 Oct 2013, 02:53 ]
Post subject:  Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project
I doubt it from the capture method. There's more than 2 audio chs, plus the fact that there's more than one side to capture. Are you going to just let it keep capturing while you get up and change sides or discs? When you stop recording that's a separate asset.

Getting it in one capture is impossible without editing on the audio side and unless you want an extra compression stage you'll need to keep the sides on separate assets. Premiere isn't needed because video editing won't be needed. If you do use it, you'll have to render every single frame before it goes to Encore. Not saying you can't, just unnecessary. Actually this method isn't hard. It's pretty straight forward, except where the audio is concerned. If you could get all audio channels in 4 separate streams in one capture, then no problem. But it doesn't look like Black Magic will do that.
Author:  elviscaprice [ 01 Oct 2013, 03:35 ]
Post subject:  Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project
tomtastic wrote:
I doubt it from the capture method. There's more than 2 audio chs, plus the fact that there's more than one side to capture. Are you going to just let it keep capturing while you get up and change sides or discs? When you stop recording that's a separate asset.

Getting it in one capture is impossible without editing on the audio side and unless you want an extra compression stage you'll need to keep the sides on separate assets. Premiere isn't needed because video editing won't be needed. If you do use it, you'll have to render every single frame before it goes to Encore. Not saying you can't, just unnecessary. Actually this method isn't hard. It's pretty straight forward, except where the audio is concerned. If you could get all audio channels in 4 separate streams in one capture, then no problem. But it doesn't look like Black Magic will do that.


You can have multiple audio/video tracks that will merge upon rendering. As far as the two sides or just one whole recording is a non issue. They can easily be merged together in Premiere. Of course the whole works shall be rendered after making adjustments with any masking issues, processing, you name it. Not a problem.
Author:  tomtastic [ 01 Oct 2013, 04:28 ]
Post subject:  Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project
Right, but as I said, it's 50/month for the whole cloud suite vs. 20 for just Encore. And using Premiere adds another video compression level. The RAW video capture that's done is fine for the final output and as long as the framing is ok and Encore accepts the codec it should work as is and unedited. If there's a problem importing it there are other (free) methods of reencoding the video aside from Premiere.

For camera recording projects, yes Final Cut Pro, Premiere are needed to do the editing of scenes, but for this, the RAW capture video is fine for the final output. In Encore you can drop the audio tracks in under the video asset, then add the chapter markers in Encore, before this the audio can be split off and I can encode them into Dolby Digital and make sure each stream is in sync with the video. Why spend 50/month when 20 will do? I think substance said he had four MUSE titles so this might be a multi month project.
Author:  msgohan [ 01 Oct 2013, 08:13 ]
Post subject:  Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project
tomtastic wrote:
And using Premiere adds another video compression level.

Premiere supports installed system codecs (i.e. you can export using lossless as well as uncompressed).

All of the cutting and joining can also be done in free software, but certainly not as intuitively as a nice NLE timeline.
Author:  tomtastic [ 01 Oct 2013, 14:15 ]
Post subject:  Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project
Not arguing what Premiere can do, just saying we don't need it but substance can make up his mind on it and I'll leave it at that.
Author:  substance [ 02 Oct 2013, 19:30 ]
Post subject:  Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project
intensity shuttle and the thunderbolt cable arrived yesterday. I will make some test runs and report later today. so far its built in software allow me to capture in quicktime 8bit uncompressed or quicktime 10bit uncompressed upto 1080p30. I will try feeding 1080p60 see what happens
Author:  substance [ 04 Oct 2013, 01:28 ]
Post subject:  Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project
Sorry guys I haven't had time to do anything yet. I don't think I will have time to do much over the weekend but I won't keep you waiting long.

I will try the following when time allows

I am planning to capture 5 to 10 min video and create a sampler disc/file using below methods.

1-capture video directly into component connections of intensity shuttle in 10bit and 8bit uncompressed format(2 separate captures) with audio through analog connections of intensity shuttle(2ch 24bit capture).


2-capture video from Crystalio II's hdmi output at 1080i@59.94 with 2ch of digital audio embedded in 10bit and 8 bit uncompressed format(2 separate captures)

I will then convert these videos to some compression format that is workable with Blu-ray discs. at the end the disc or file will contain the same content 4 times in different above methods. I will somehow(mail discs or ftp share etc..) transfer end results to tomtastic (and anyone else who would like contribute to the project) team members will decide which direction we should go.

1- we will decided whether to go with intensity shuttle's component input or use Crystalio II to digitize component into HDMI.

2- decided whether to use 8bit or 10 bit uncompressed formats. If there is not a visible improvement we can save time and simplicity by going with 8bit(hard drive space issue on 256gb ssd)

3- we will compare audio captured using Crystalio II (pure digital path) and intensity shuttle(analog to digital converted) then decide which to use.

notes:
we are NOT trying to improve the quality of MUSE(you could just buy the Blu-ray versions). The point is preserving MUSE video as it plays on a MUSE setup. so 1080p24 conversion is not needed. video noise reduction, edge enhancement etc.. also defeats purpose.

after reading up on BD specs, the final format has to be 1080 interlaced at 59.94 frame per second (1080i59.94). BD specs does not include 1080i60hz. so either at Crystalio II(hardware) or via software the final frame rate has to be converted to 59.94. SW should do better job in theory but this is a simple process. I don't think the difference between hw conversion and sw conversion will be visible.

a typical BD player will de-interlace this video into 1080p59.94. At really high bitrates it should be a very close imitation of the actual muse video.
Author:  substance [ 04 Oct 2013, 01:33 ]
Post subject:  Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project
I am thinking "Cliffhanger" for the sampler. It is 1 disc with 2 sides only at 113mins. We will have to deal with 1 side change only. It has one of the best video quality among muse discs(film transfer). It also has 3+1 muse audio and 2ch digital audio.
Author:  msgohan [ 04 Oct 2013, 04:48 ]
Post subject:  Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project
Capturing 10-bit or 8-bit shouldn't make a difference if you are encoding directly from the captured file to Blu-ray without calibrating the colors post-capture. In the end you have to clamp everything down to 8-bit anyway.

I think I said it before, but the Crystalio II probably converts to 59.94 by dropping frames/fields which isn't what we want.
Author:  elviscaprice [ 04 Oct 2013, 05:43 ]
Post subject:  Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project
substance wrote:
1-capture video directly into component connections of intensity shuttle in 10bit and 8bit uncompressed format(2 separate captures) with audio through analog connections of intensity shuttle(2ch 24bit capture).


Curious, why the 24bit capture with an analog connection? What are you getting from the Muse audio thru the analog?


substance wrote:
we are NOT trying to improve the quality of MUSE(you could just buy the Blu-ray versions). The point is preserving MUSE video as it plays on a MUSE setup. so 1080p24 conversion is not needed. video noise reduction, edge enhancement etc.. also defeats purpose.

Yes, but your not going to be capturing an analog signal to analog for playback on an analog tv. Your going to transfer to digital.
You are right, you aren't going to improve the quality of Muse, but you can better prepare the analog picture transferred to digital, to look better in digital format. Different animals. A little bit of processing and edge cleanup will go a long way towards a better digital presentation. I would volunteer to give it a go in Adobe Premiere but I am soon, October 19th, back on my way to Costa Rica for the winter. Wouldn't hurt for someone else to take the raw capture and see what they could do compared to your untouched final output.
Author:  substance [ 06 Oct 2013, 04:08 ]
Post subject:  Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project
Yes we can try processed vs untouched.
Intensity per its usermanual captures analog audio in 24bit resolution. It doesnt mean its 24bit original but closer imitation than 16bit resolution conversion.
Author:  substance [ 06 Oct 2013, 04:09 ]
Post subject:  Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project
I purchased 3 more muse titles they they should arrive in 2 months.

Close encounters
A league of their own
Legends of fall
Author:  circlesky73 [ 08 Oct 2013, 00:15 ]
Post subject:  Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project
Please post reviews, primarily of "Close Encounters"!
Author:  substance [ 08 Oct 2013, 02:02 ]
Post subject:  Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project
I need to rent the test disc from pubilus first. Muse video is not bit perfect match to modern 1080p displays. I need the over scan pattern to properly position and zoom in on the image. Also I am pretty sure I have to fix greyscale. Once I have all these adjustments done. I am hoping to watch 3 muse discs per week or more. I am planning to post reviews with photos from my monitor and screen shots from captures.

I also added Stargate to my collection. Above 3 will arrive in 2 months. I have credit with Nicolas Santini I am hoping it will be enough to cover Terminator 2, Back to the Future I,II,III and Jurassic Park. I don't have imminent interest in the other titles for now. I know I should get some demo discs but I just cant bring myself to pay $200-300 for a disc that has less than 20 mins on it.
Author:  msgohan [ 26 Oct 2013, 10:18 ]
Post subject:  Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project
So I just learned 1035i uses nonsquare sampling. I was wondering why it would have been 1.85507...:1 aspect ratio, but it is regular 16:9 using nonsquare samples the same way as 480i and 576i. It also uses different colorimetry than the regular Rec.709.

From two editions of Charles Poynton's book.
Quote:
HD equipment based on 1125/60 scanning and 1920×1035 image format, with nonsquare sampling, according to SMPTE 240M, was deployed for several years. That system is obsolete. (It can now be considered as a 1035i variant of 1080i30 or 1080i29.97 having 1035 picture lines instead of 1080, nonsquare sampling, and slightly different colorimetry.)

Quote:
The SMPTE 240M standard for 1125/60.00/2:1 HDTV was adopted in 1988. The 1125/60 system, now called 1035i30, had 1920×1035 image structure with nonsquare sampling: Pixels were 4% closer horizontally than vertically. After several years, square sampling was introduced into the SMPTE standards, and subsequently, into ATSC standards. 1920×1035 image structure has been superseded by 1920×1080, and square sampling is now a feature of all HDTV studio standards.

So if you want to get picky, your 1920x1080 capture (with 45 lines of letterboxing from 1035) will need to be horizontally squished to 1840x1080 and then pillarboxed (creating a windowbox) for proper playback on all of our HD equipment that assumes a 1080 signal uses square pixels...

Or inverse-telecined and interpolated vertically.

I'm not sure if there is any way to account for the slightly different colorimetry. The ColorMatrix Avisynth filter offers no option to do the conversion from SMPTE 240M and brushes it off saying "the error will be small". The coefficients can be specified when you encode with x264 or MPEG-2, but I don't think decoders bother to implement them.

Image
Author:  tet [ 01 Nov 2013, 19:05 ]
Post subject:  Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project
What an awesome project! After many months of absence I found the time to stop by and it seems I found the most interesting HiVision project since years.

Allow me to chime in some thougths...

Audio:
The Pioneer HM-D101/ Hitachi MD-20 decoders have digital audio outputs (Coax and SPDIF) over which they transmit 2x 2channel digital bitstream audio. This is likely the best source for capturing the audio signals. However, I never used this type of connection as I think none of my amps can handle the 3+1 channels over 2 bitstream lines correctly. The TU-MDC100 seems to have a digital jack as well (3.1 digital output over a single coax RCA port). Same here, I never bothered to connect it to my amps digital inputs. So I cannot confirm they are useful for digital audio captures. A few years ago I bought an M-Audio "Firewire 1814" analog/digital sound capture device. Something like this could be used here, but I never tried that.

Picture:
In terms of picture quality the Close Encounters disc is a bit disappointing. Many dark scenes with a low detail level (plus green tint on some player+decoder combination). I recommend Dances with Wolves, Cliffhanger or Chaplin, or the Panasonic discs (BTTF1/3/3 or Breakfast at Tiffanys), if you have the chance to acquire one. On the other hand the Scenery or Test Discs are far superior to the movies. I have Jumanji (and *some* ;) other titles). Jumanji looks great, could be interesting to capture this one.

Some time ago 2 Muse-enthusiasts and I did a side-by-side comparison with different decks (HLD-X0, HLD-X9, HLD-1000 - all in my possession) and decoders (HV-MD2, HM-D101, TU-MDC100, TU-AHD100, MSC-4000 - first three in my possession) and it turned out that some combinations worked very well, and some did not. I preferred the HLD-X0 connected to the Panasonic TU-MDC100 (3rd gen decoder) over all other combinations - I believe this is the best stand alone decoder as far as PQ is concerned, and the coax audio output seems promising. This player+decoder combination also showed very little of the greenish tint some HV-LDs seems to create on some players (e.g. Lawrence of Arabia - if played on the HLD-X9). Sometimes the MDC100 shows up on auctions for cheap as it became useless since the BS-9 satellite shutdown.

The longer you spend your spare time with LD and HV-LD the more equipment and LDs you end up with - at least that's what happened to me. You're in for some very rewarding hours with an interesting technology. I think I'll try to stop by from time to time if my little spare time allows and see if I could be of any help.
Author:  publius [ 01 Nov 2013, 19:59 ]
Post subject:  Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project
tet wrote:
Audio:
The Pioneer HM-D101/ Hitachi MD-20 decoders have digital audio outputs (Coax and SPDIF) over which they transmit 2x 2channel digital bitstream audio. This is likely the best source for capturing the audio signals. However, I never used this type of connection as I think none of my amps can handle the 3+1 channels over 2 bitstream lines correctly. The TU-MDC100 seems to have a digital jack as well (3.1 digital output over a single coax RCA port). Same here, I never bothered to connect it to my amps digital inputs. So I cannot confirm they are useful for digital audio captures. A few years ago I bought an M-Audio "Firewire 1814" analog/digital sound capture device. Something like this could be used here, but I never tried that.

Checking the TU-MDC100 manual, it appears that there is (in addition to two pairs of switchable 2/4 channel audio outputs) the standard "bitstream" jack (RCA), two coaxial digital audio jacks (RCA) for left+right & center+surround, & one "3-1 Stereo" jack (mini-phone M3). This latter, I have reason to believe, does not provide a multichannel digital audio output. Instead, it simply transmits a voltage signal when A-Mode 3+1 Stereo is being output, for the use of some Japanese multichannel receivers which had an auto-switching function between 2-channel (with Pro-Logic or other processing if wanted, probably) & 4-channel input modes. This could be easily enough checked with an oscilloscope.
Author:  tet [ 01 Nov 2013, 21:15 ]
Post subject:  Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project
publius, you are right. Manual pg. 22 suggests that there are two bistream outputs for LR+CS. I need to verify it when I have the equipment back in place (I still refurbish the house and have many stuff stored in the basement).

Edit: does anybody know any receiver/preamp/amp that has the matching digital inputs?
Author:  substance [ 02 Nov 2013, 01:15 ]
Post subject:  Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project
Sorry for a few weeks of delay. I had guests for two weeks. There is also change of equipment. I got my wife a macbook pro retina a month ago. There is a new version now. I was within 45 day return policy. I swapped it for the new version.

So its 4th gen i7 now with 2gb nvidia for graphics.
I also got a promotion deal from work for adobe. I can get it for $20 a month instead of $50.

I should be able load programs and setup bm shuttle this weekend and start experimenting in a few days.
Author:  publius [ 02 Nov 2013, 02:25 ]
Post subject:  Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project
Yes, 1035×1920 pixel matrix, 16:9 aspect ratio, with non-square sampling.
But it's actually more complicated than that. Firstly, MUSE drops a total of three lines (I need to check, but I recall two at the top of the frame & one at the bottom), so that each field has a number of active lines divisible by four, for the subsampling process to work correctly. Secondly, MUSE cuts off the very far ends of each line, 15 samples at the MUSE master rate of 44.55 MHz, which is equivalent to 25 samples at the HD master rate of 74.25 MHz.

msgohan wrote:
So I just learned 1035i uses nonsquare sampling. I was wondering why it would have been 1.85507...:1 aspect ratio, but it is regular 16:9 using nonsquare samples the same way as 480i and 576i. It also uses different colorimetry than the regular Rec.709.


And the colorimetry defined in the MUSE spec (see ITU-R BO.786) is different yet again, partly because an inverse gamma correction is performed on the RGB components, which are then matrixed in quasi-linear form, & there is some strange processing — amplitude of the quasi-linear difference signals is doubled, then clipped, so highly saturated colours can become inaccurate in value & lose resolution. There is also a 'transmission gamma' applied which is different for Y & C (to reduce the effect of channel noise in dark regions), & to reduce the cost of digital signal processing, early encoders applied the C gamma before subsampling, which leads to a certain amount of chroma noise & chroma-luma interference.
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