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 Post subject: SACD Saturation (solved)
PostPosted: 15 Jul 2018, 15:46 
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I have a little problem with my first tests with SACD.

I have some saturation effection in the high pitched voices.
I don't have the same issue via my normal Cd player with the same disc.

Here is my SACD configuration :

SACD player converting it to PCM 88khz> HDMI to DVDO Edge > Optical out to my DAC (DAC detect the 88khz) > amp > speakers.

My normal CD configuration :

CD player 44hz > DAC > Amp > speakers.

Do you have any idea.


Last edited by mimylovesjapan on 16 Jul 2018, 12:27, edited 1 time in total. _________________
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 Post subject: Re: SACD Saturation
PostPosted: 16 Jul 2018, 06:17 
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mimylovesjapan wrote:
I have some saturation effection in the high pitched voices.
I don't have the same issue via my normal Cd player with the same disc.


Does the SACD player have analog outputs?
What if you plug it directly to the Amp analog audio inputs?

Julien
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 Post subject: Re: SACD Saturation
PostPosted: 16 Jul 2018, 10:57 
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No, only via HDMI, because I wanted to use my own DAC (stereo optimised).
Maybe using the edge as a transfert from HDMI audio to Digial Optical out is a bad idea ? Too long cable + the edge maybe introduce bad effect ?
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 Post subject: Re: SACD Saturation (solved)
PostPosted: 16 Jul 2018, 12:29 
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OK, I did the test with the CD layer, and in fact, the problem is the same.
I also tested it with an other audio device (sega saturn + television^^, the most basic !) and the saturation is here too.
Then, this SACD is a failure ! The reference is "tous les matins du monde" Code : 7619986398211

i asked the shop a remplacement CD. We will see if it is a problem of the item or the mastering.
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 Post subject: Re: SACD Saturation (solved)
PostPosted: 18 Jul 2018, 03:27 
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Are you sure it’s not because SACD was really never meant to be decoded with an external DAC?

I’m a big supporter of the 5.1 analog out (regardless how bulky it is with all the cables) since it eliminates any additional conversion steps and overall I’m good with my players internal converters.
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 Post subject: Re: SACD Saturation (solved)
PostPosted: 18 Jul 2018, 03:40 
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Yes, I thought first, but as I tested the disc in CD version with an internal DAC in the most simple configuration (saturn + TV speakers) and compare it to the SACD configuration (SACD player (DSD to PCM 88) to DAC to Amp to speakers), and found the same sound problem at the same place on the disc, then i should be the mastering record.
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 Post subject: Re: SACD Saturation (solved)
PostPosted: 20 Jul 2018, 12:18 
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What's the SACD disc title? Maybe someone else here has it too?
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 Post subject: Re: SACD Saturation (solved)
PostPosted: 20 Jul 2018, 14:50 
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"tous les matins du monde" Code : 7619986398211
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 Post subject: Re: SACD Saturation (solved)
PostPosted: 21 Jul 2018, 00:55 
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ooookay, maybe not.. haha
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 Post subject: Re: SACD Saturation (solved)
PostPosted: 01 Nov 2018, 00:50 
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Late to the party. I think Toslink is limited to 44khz, maybe that is the problem. Try putting the output of the SACD player down to 44 khz PCM stereo and see if you still get the same distortion.
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 Post subject: Re: SACD Saturation (solved)
PostPosted: 01 Nov 2018, 01:28 
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The problem was found to be in the master, with the SACD and CD versions exhibiting the same issue on known good setups.

Is this the film soundtrack of the same name? I remember it being all strings and that’s the sort of thing that can be extremely hard to record perfectly. Check to see if you can detect it in the film itself. I wouldn’t be surprised. There must have been a CD from the original era too. It would be interesting to check that version as well.
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 Post subject: Re: SACD Saturation (solved)
PostPosted: 01 Nov 2018, 03:56 
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Sacd audio is available via analog outputs, firewire or hdmi 1.2 and above. It is illegal for any legit player to output sacd audio over coax/optical. Only the cd layer is permitted.

You need a dac/ av receiver which dsd over hdmi capable. They are very rare. Most players will convert to dsd to pcm and transmit pcm (dsd) over hdmi.
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 Post subject: Re: SACD Saturation (solved)
PostPosted: 02 Nov 2018, 14:43 
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Yes, it is transfering in PCM 88khz.
88khz is far enough to not get those distortions.
I will check on the movie someday.
I will also buy a HDMI DSD DAC someday in the futur to test it, but it is clearly not affordable...
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 Post subject: Re: SACD Saturation (solved)
PostPosted: 02 Nov 2018, 18:16 
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I am going to say edge is probably molesting the signal while converting to spdif. I am not sure 88.2khz is one of the standard samples. This might be the issue. Either way, you are introducing a ton of jitter having a ton of devices in chain.

In audio, less is always better. On a 300mhz video signal a few nano second jitter isn’t noticed but on a 88.2Khz sample with that many devices in chain (also the quality of the edge is a suspect here) you are likely looking at a few hundred nano second jitter.
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 Post subject: Re: SACD Saturation (solved)
PostPosted: 02 Nov 2018, 23:08 
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The CXUHD is converting it in 88khz. Edge only takes the PCM signal from the HDMI to send it to my DAC.
I don't think that way, there is any loss...
But as I said, the only way to know at the end will be to buy a HDMI DSD DAC to test it in the most pure signal possible.
Some day... now I have to gather money. After the big hole (lumagen^^) in my wallet.
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 Post subject: Re: SACD Saturation (solved)
PostPosted: 03 Nov 2018, 00:29 
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There is no such thing as “no loss” in electronics. With each interface, there is a distortion added which is called “jitter”. Don’t think the data stream as one set of binary numbers flowing. There is a whole bunch of binary numbers flowing at different frequency bands. In essence, digital is analog as well. Digital is lossless and logic only during while it remains in the fpga and memory. When it flows between different interfaces(hdmi, spdif and bunch of other internal components, it is a number a electrical impulses (hence analog). Yes the voltage between logic low and high are well apart so 1 and 0 are easily distinguished however the speed, when the data stream begins and end are still bound to the laws of physics. Each cable, even an inch long interface cable will introduce jitter. Is2 to hdmi conversion will introduce jitter, hdmi to coax conversion will introduce another. These jitter will be even greater if the components aren’t selected carefully and clocks used aren’t very accurate. As with any electronics, clean power will help reduce jitter. Dvdo edge has a cheap power supply and is a decice aimed for video. I highly doubt it has audiophile gread audio characteristics.

Lumagen radiance uses hdmi chipsets that rated some of the lowest jitter in the industry and the jitter is even more reduced if you upgrade the cheap power supply with a linear supply. I still wouldn’t and don’t run any of my audio signals through my Lumagen units. Audio cables go directly into my preamp/dac.
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 Post subject: Re: SACD Saturation (solved)
PostPosted: 05 Nov 2018, 06:25 
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Dear Substance,
Thank you for the details !
I understand what you mean. I will try to avoid Edge, when it's possible.
Lumagen can take the signal from HDMI and send it to my DAC. I will find also a HDMI DAC in the futur to connect directly the player to the DAC.

Now I have a question you can maybe answer :
What would be the better choice if I don't have a DSD DAC :
- reading the CD layer (44khz) of a SACD and send directly the signal to the DAC then to the Amp ?
or :
- reading the SACD layer of the SACD, converting the DSD signal to PCM (88khz), sending it to the lumangen, then to the DAC, then to the Amp ?
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