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 Post subject: future cinema layout--within 2 years
PostPosted: 05 Feb 2013, 23:15 
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well, time for new plans for the spring summer.
still upgrading my old reciever, but also adding on new stuff.

replacement avr: pioneer elite vsx 47, gonna downgrade from 7.1 to 6.2 sound in this way
1) increase total surrounds to 5: 4 surround left and right and 1 single back surround.
2) replace my old sub with 2 cambridge audio minx X300 subwoofers
3) replace my old centre speaker with a better one, selling most of my old crappy cube speakers.
4) purchase a video scaler for the laserdisc.

this will allow me to simulate baby boom by setting the surround mode to "PRO LOGIC + THX CINEMA", having the sub at 200hz, and the mains at 150hz, center at 100hz and surrounds at 80-100hz.

do the same for split surround, but select "PRO LOGIC II + THX CINEMA" and have either one sub or both.
expensive? you bet your a**.
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 Post subject: Re: future cinema layout--within 2 years
PostPosted: 06 Feb 2013, 01:36 
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elieb wrote:
well, time for new plans for the spring summer.
still upgrading my old reciever, but also adding on new stuff.

replacement avr: pioneer elite vsx 47, gonna downgrade from 7.1 to 6.2 sound in this way
1) increase total surrounds to 5: 4 surround left and right and 1 single back surround.
2) replace my old sub with 2 cambridge audio minx X300 subwoofers
3) replace my old centre speaker with a better one, selling most of my old crappy cube speakers.
4) purchase a video scaler for the laserdisc.

this will allow me to simulate baby boom by setting the surround mode to "PRO LOGIC + THX CINEMA", having the sub at 200hz, and the mains at 150hz, center at 100hz and surrounds at 80-100hz.

do the same for split surround, but select "PRO LOGIC II + THX CINEMA" and have either one sub or both.
expensive? you bet your a**.


Sub at 200 Hz is WAAAY too high of crossover. You shouldn't go above 120 Hz and the optimum is 80 Hz. With a higher crossover you are going to hear your sub booming and will be able to localize it all the time. You should NEVER be able to localize where the sub is - the crossover should be set low enough that it's output blends with and sounds like its coming from the main speakers.

Also, why 5 surround speakers? You won't be able to localize them since human hearing is worst at localizing sounds behind us... You are just wasting speakers. And the THX Cinema mode won't do anything for you except screw up the sound by applying all kinds of processing that's not needed in a properly set up system.
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 Post subject: Re: future cinema layout--within 2 years
PostPosted: 06 Feb 2013, 02:11 
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disclord wrote:
elieb wrote:
well, time for new plans for the spring summer.
still upgrading my old reciever, but also adding on new stuff.

replacement avr: pioneer elite vsx 47, gonna downgrade from 7.1 to 6.2 sound in this way
1) increase total surrounds to 5: 4 surround left and right and 1 single back surround.
2) replace my old sub with 2 cambridge audio minx X300 subwoofers
3) replace my old centre speaker with a better one, selling most of my old crappy cube speakers.
4) purchase a video scaler for the laserdisc.

this will allow me to simulate baby boom by setting the surround mode to "PRO LOGIC + THX CINEMA", having the sub at 200hz, and the mains at 150hz, center at 100hz and surrounds at 80-100hz.

do the same for split surround, but select "PRO LOGIC II + THX CINEMA" and have either one sub or both.
expensive? you bet your a**.


Sub at 200 Hz is WAAAY too high of crossover. You shouldn't go above 120 Hz and the optimum is 80 Hz. With a higher crossover you are going to hear your sub booming and will be able to localize it all the time. You should NEVER be able to localize where the sub is - the crossover should be set low enough that it's output blends with and sounds like its coming from the main speakers.

Also, why 5 surround speakers? You won't be able to localize them since human hearing is worst at localizing sounds behind us... You are just wasting speakers. And the THX Cinema mode won't do anything for you except screw up the sound by applying all kinds of processing that's not needed in a properly set up system.


True yes and no with the subs even at 80Hz some frequencies tend to be directional around one side of the head or you're hearing.

Having multiples spread out and aligned at the same level helps to keep some directional low tones from sounding on one side when they should all be even thoughout the room as possible otherwise damn annoying to listen to and might as well set the sub at 40Hz or lower as the lower notes tend to in my home cinema fill out everywhere.

I have the whole thing sussed out for my room.

But 250Hz is way too steep and doesn't have to be boomy if EQ'd it can be made to sound smooth and seamless but the idea of using that crossover was for older loudspeakers that can't manage that well.
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 Post subject: Re: future cinema layout--within 2 years
PostPosted: 06 Feb 2013, 02:14 
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well, it would be set to 120 for 5.1/6.1 sources, but for dolby surround sources...200hz, because baby boom goes from 20-250hz, and the sub is 33-200hz.
the surround layout would be 1 single back surround, and normal left/right surround on the side and rear walls
i was originally consider 150hz peak, but i figured baby boom was 20-250hz, that's the closest i ever got.
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 Post subject: Re: future cinema layout--within 2 years
PostPosted: 06 Feb 2013, 02:50 
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Could somebody translate that "baby boom" line of his for me? I feel like it doesn't mean what it normally would.
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 Post subject: Re: future cinema layout--within 2 years
PostPosted: 06 Feb 2013, 03:00 
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disclord wrote:
elieb wrote:
well, time for new plans for the spring summer.
still upgrading my old reciever, but also adding on new stuff.

replacement avr: pioneer elite vsx 47, gonna downgrade from 7.1 to 6.2 sound in this way
1) increase total surrounds to 5: 4 surround left and right and 1 single back surround.
2) replace my old sub with 2 cambridge audio minx X300 subwoofers
3) replace my old centre speaker with a better one, selling most of my old crappy cube speakers.
4) purchase a video scaler for the laserdisc.

this will allow me to simulate baby boom by setting the surround mode to "PRO LOGIC + THX CINEMA", having the sub at 200hz, and the mains at 150hz, center at 100hz and surrounds at 80-100hz.

do the same for split surround, but select "PRO LOGIC II + THX CINEMA" and have either one sub or both.
expensive? you bet your a**.


Sub at 200 Hz is WAAAY too high of crossover. You shouldn't go above 120 Hz and the optimum is 80 Hz. With a higher crossover you are going to hear your sub booming and will be able to localize it all the time. You should NEVER be able to localize where the sub is - the crossover should be set low enough that it's output blends with and sounds like its coming from the main speakers.

Also, why 5 surround speakers? You won't be able to localize them since human hearing is worst at localizing sounds behind us... You are just wasting speakers. And the THX Cinema mode won't do anything for you except screw up the sound by applying all kinds of processing that's not needed in a properly set up system.


True yes and no with the subs even at 80Hz some frequencies tend to be directional around one side of the head or you're hearing.

Having multiples spread out and aligned at the same level helps to keep some directional low tones from sounding on one side when they should all be even thoughout the room as possible otherwise damn annoying to listen to and might as well set the sub at 40Hz or lower as the lower notes tend to in my home cinema fill out everywhere.

I have the whole thing sussed out for my room.

But 250Hz is way too steep and doesn't have to be boomy if EQ'd it can be made to sound smooth and seamless but the idea of using that crossover was for older loudspeakers that can't manage that well.

Has for sensing sound behind us I've trained myself but it is still hard to filter out what we hear in front of us.

At present I'm sat in the sofa with my back to window and in front of me I can hear the hot water creaking and being pumped though the central heating system.

Behind me I can hear mild wind blowing around the seals on the window are not that great but I can hear cars driving down the road behind me and if I had front window open I might just hear the car passing me from behind then a defused like sound coming from home cinema if it was summertime and I had the window opened.

You could test with simple pink noise and single small bookshelf loudspeaker and have someone move it around you at an equal distance never getting too near to you, and just circle it around and you'll notice the tone shape going from bright in front then very bright on the sides of the ears then dull as it goes right behind.

Well just EQ what is bright in front and on the sides and keep the back a little brighter sounding, that's one way of doing it but you'd need mics and RTA and lot of 1/3 EQ.

Another way I can do test is rustling my thumb and finger in front on me and moving my arm and hand so from side to side it stays the same over the width in front.

Doing it from front and moving backwards so it passes my left or right ear as it gets nearer the rustling gets brighter. Its only frequency that needs to be adjusted or I can do it slowly to match then speed it up as it passes my ear to go behind me. Or above or below my ears.

Try it out if you doubt me.
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 Post subject: Re: future cinema layout--within 2 years
PostPosted: 06 Feb 2013, 03:10 
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naiaru wrote:
Could somebody translate that "baby boom" line of his for me? I feel like it doesn't mean what it normally would.

a type of surround that was used when star wars was originally released and other stuff.
i had to do a search for it a while back.
at first i thought it was about the film :shock: baby boom :lol:
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 Post subject: Re: future cinema layout--within 2 years
PostPosted: 06 Feb 2013, 03:20 
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rein-o wrote:
naiaru wrote:
Could somebody translate that "baby boom" line of his for me? I feel like it doesn't mean what it normally would.

a type of surround that was used when star wars was originally released and other stuff.
i had to do a search for it a while back.
at first i thought it was about the film :shock: baby boom :lol:

Maybe this would help. :lol:

Image

Baby Boom was only released in 35mm so no 70mm Dolby Baby Boom for the Baby to Boom in this one I'm afraid. :mrgreen:

I think it was Dolby or maybe an engineer who came up with name as baby would be small yes and the two inner stage channels for 70mm are small little babies and they boom. Its the same as term as LFE.1 subwoofer or dogwoofer woofer, woofer meow.

I have no idea if it was Ioan Allen that came up with or one of mixer at the time STAR WARS was being done? I could ask an ex Dolby guy on fb about how it came about? But watch the video I watched it many times now.

The Birth of 5.1 SOUND
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaXiJSofaMY


Last edited by laserbite34 on 06 Feb 2013, 03:22, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: future cinema layout--within 2 years
PostPosted: 06 Feb 2013, 03:22 
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that's it :wtf: i thought: why would anybody even care to have the audio correct for that film EVER :crazy:
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 Post subject: Re: future cinema layout--within 2 years
PostPosted: 06 Feb 2013, 05:12 
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elieb wrote:
i prefer "twin subs" "twin boom" "stereo lfe" and "attack of the bass"
by the way, do you have any pics of baby sooty? is he a persian kitty?

But there is no stereo LFE. it's a single mono channel LFE".1".

I'm not sure if :think: Atmos extra LFE channels are stereo? I'd have to read up on that again.
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 Post subject: Re: future cinema layout--within 2 years
PostPosted: 13 Feb 2013, 22:40 
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How big is your room? You may want to spend the money that you were going to spend on 2 subs into buying 1 sub which is higher quality. I do use 2 subs in my setup but my home theater room is over 500 sq ft and high ceilings. If you don't have a very large room you can probably get away with one sub. It's quality over quantity anyway. I agree with the others, 200 hz crossover is way to high. I would not recommend higher than 80 hz unless you are planning to use some tiny 3 inch speakers for your surrounds. If that's the case, forget about the 2nd sub and upgrade the speakers, your going to get much more bang for your buck. If you get some good floor standing speakers you can go even lower on the sub crossover. Also, is there a reason why you are decreasing the total number of speakers in favor of going with a DSP? Ideally, you would want to keep the maximum speakers 7.1 (for Blu-ray/DVD) and not use any DSP as this will just make the sound more "altered" from the original source.
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 Post subject: Re: future cinema layout--within 2 years
PostPosted: 13 Feb 2013, 23:00 
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well, it's a medium sized room.

surrounds would be at 50-100 hz
main left and right at 150 hz, sub at 200hz.
center speaker at 50-100hz.

i do plan to replace my lousy sony cube speakers with definitive technology sr-8040p and pro monitor 800.
my current floor standing speakers are pretty good, i can use them as DSX expansions for denon 3313ci or as main left and right on the pioneer.
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 Post subject: Re: future cinema layout--within 2 years
PostPosted: 13 Feb 2013, 23:32 
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If their cube speakers, I would just get rid of them. More isn't necessarily better. Try to get "good full range speakers". I'm not sure what "medium sized room" means. If it's less than 300 sq feet you should be ok with 1 "good" subwoofer. You may want to check out a manufacturer called Hsu, they have some very good and reasonably priced speakers and subs that may suit your needs. I have heard very good things about this subwoofer: http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-15h.html. It should be more than adequate for a room under 400 sq ft.

Once again, I am not sure where you got the 200 hz sub crossover point? I have never seen anybody run that high. The industry standard is around 80 hz crossover, and if you have really good full range speaker you can even go lower than that, like 60 hz. Just for fun I looked up the specs for the sr-8040p's your looking at and those should go down to 50 hz (according to their spec page), so there is no reason why you want the sub to way overshoot that mark. I would set crossover at 80 hz and start from there.
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 Post subject: Re: future cinema layout--within 2 years
PostPosted: 13 Feb 2013, 23:40 
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well my room is about 110 sq feet, maybe a little more or less.
that sub is WAY TOO MUCH. under 600 bucks is what i'm aiming for even when it's on sale.
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 Post subject: Re: future cinema layout--within 2 years
PostPosted: 14 Feb 2013, 00:42 
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Ok, so at 110 sq ft you really don't need two subs. There is no point. If the room is less than 2,000 cubic ft volume there is no reason to have multiple subs, especially if your on a limited budget. Also, in a room that size a couch is going to take up most of the space so you don't want it too crowded. I would definitely stick with 1 sub. You also don't need a very powerful sub due to the room size. I would concentrate on a smaller, but higher quality sub. Also, when you buy your speakers, make sure you allocate your funds appropriately. If this is going to be mostly for movie watching, I would put close to half the speaker budget into the center speaker alone. That is the speaker that you will be hearing 85% of the time. If this is for music listening mostly, then the Front Left and Right speakers should have most of the funds allocated for. Those surrounds are going to get very little use compared to these so no point in spending a lot of money on those when your going to get so much more bang for your buck concentrating on the front side of things.
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 Post subject: Re: future cinema layout--within 2 years
PostPosted: 14 Feb 2013, 01:07 
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Subwoofers are omnidirectional. If you can hear what direction the bass is coming from, then you have a bad setup. That is why you can place a sub anywhere in the room and there are many views which is the best place. Front of the room, corner, behind, next to listener. That is why they sell most subs with the ability to connect them inline with both left and right speaker wires as you can grab the low end off both channels at the same time. With movie watching, this won't matter anyway as their is only one channel for LFE. There are no 5.2 encodes available on the market.
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 Post subject: Re: future cinema layout--within 2 years
PostPosted: 14 Feb 2013, 01:11 
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well, i was planning use the line-in inputs and have the left channel twinned via a y-connector.
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 Post subject: Re: future cinema layout--within 2 years
PostPosted: 14 Feb 2013, 01:17 
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So you are not going to have the receiver manage the LFE? You can run the line in directly to the sub (if they have the connectors), but they will only have Left and Right channel inputs. So unless you plan to buy 4 subs to support all your channels I don't think that's a feasible solution. May I ask what your total speaker budget is? If you have a number in mind, that may help you determine where to invest the resources. What percentage of time do you plan on spending movies vs music? Also, is there a specific reason why you feel strongly about having two subs vs one? With a room that size you really should be fine, that is why I ask.
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 Post subject: Re: future cinema layout--within 2 years
PostPosted: 14 Feb 2013, 02:00 
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okay why not?

for listening: equal amounts of movie and music, as well as video games.
using both the turntable, cassette deck and future cd/sacd player.

sound set up:

subwoofer: 2x cambridge audio minx x300
surrounds--side walls: definitive technology pro monitor 800's
surrounds--rear wall: definitive technology sr-8040bp and single definitive technology pro monitor 800 for the back surround
centre speaker: klipsch rc-52 or other.
main left/right: klipsch rf600b or rf800b, or use current kenwood.

extra left/right for front wide or front height: current kenwood 3 way speakers.


i might use the lfe input, but it would be splice via the left channel input, so in a way...stereo subwoofers for sound enhancements.
total speaker budget can be summed as 3x pro monitor 800's, 2x sr-8040bp, 2x klipsch rf800 or 600b tower speakers, 2 subs--thinking about cambridge audio mix x300 and a centre channel.


Last edited by elieb on 14 Feb 2013, 19:50, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: future cinema layout--within 2 years
PostPosted: 14 Feb 2013, 04:31 
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elieb wrote:
okay why not?

i have a cassette deck and turntable set up
i might use the lfe input, but it would be splice via the left channel input, so in a way...stereo subwoofers for sound enhancements.
total speaker budget can be summed as 3x pro monitor 800's, 2x sr-8040bp, 2x klipsch rf tower speakers, 2 subs--thinking about cambridge audio mix x300 and a centre channel.

percentage of music and movies is 50% with games included.


I don't understand, what do you mean by "splicing the left channel." Do you mean that your planning on having multiple recievers/preamps? Most people will have one receiver/preamp so that all the sources (blu-ray, tape, cd, phono, etc.) feed into that and thus you would not be making multiple connections to the subwoofer. You can't run your phono output directly into the sub.

Remember, there is no such thing as "stereo subwoofers". In a proper setup, if you have the subwoofer making sound and you close your eyes, you should NOT be able to tell from which direction the sound is coming from. It should be omnidirection, unlike the rest of the speakers which are directional. This should be true whether you have one sub, or 10 of them in the room.

Also, as I mentioned before more is not better. Having ten bicycles does not get you to the store faster than one car. You will get better sound quality by spending $500 on one good sub, rather than two $250 mediocre ones. You have a relatively small room so you don't need a very powerful sub, and certainly not more than one good one. You can put 10 subs in there if you want, but ultimately you will just be turning the volume level on each of those to a very low setting as you will find the low end is overpowering when you calibrate the system. You only need more subs if your bass is deficient with the maximum volume of the sub, or if your getting distortion from the sub at the desired level.
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