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 Post subject: Re: Picture quality scale by format
PostPosted: 18 Mar 2018, 04:31 
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Analog to Digital resolution equivalence:

resolutions calculated from analog line resolution numbers. NTSC Systems,

330×480 (250 lines per picture height): Umatic, Betamax, VHS, Video8
400×480 (300 lines per picture height): Super Betamax, Betacam (professional)
440×480 (330 lines per picture height): NTSC Analog Broadcast
560×480 (420 lines per picture height): LaserDisc, Super VHS, Hi8
670×480 (500 lines per picture height): Extended Definition Betamax

PAL Systems,

330×576 (250 lines per picture height): Umatic, Betamax, VHS, Video8
400×576 (300 lines per picture height): Super Betamax, Betacam (professional)
520×576 (390 lines per picture height): PAL B,G,H Analog Broadcast
560×576 (420 lines per picture height): LaserDisc, Super VHS, Hi8
570×576 (430 lines per picture height): PAL I Analog Broadcast
620×576 (470 lines per picture height): PAL D/K Analog Broadcast
670×576 (500 lines per picture height): Extended Definition Betamax

Digital formats Luminance Display resolution based on the quality of a standard. Equivalent analog line resolution numbers calculated from pixel resolutions. The somewhat unintuitive analog resolution loss for 16:9 DVD compared to 4:3 DVD comes from that analog resolution unit is "lines per picture height". When picture height is kept the same, the same 720 pixels are spread to a wider area in 16:9, hence lower horizontal resolution per picture height.

352×240 (260 lines per picture height): Video CD, 4:3
480×480 (360 lines per picture height): SVCD, 4:3
720×480 (410 lines per picture height): Anamorphic NTSC Widescreen DVD, 16:9
720×360 (410 lines per non-black picture height): Letterbox NTSC Widescreen DVD, 4:3
720×480 (540 lines per picture height): 4:3 NTSC DVD, DV, miniDV, Digital8, 4:3
1280×720 (720 lines per picture height): AVCHD-lite (720p), 16:9
1440×1080 (810 lines per picture height): miniDV (high-def variant), 16:9
1920×1080 (1080 lines per picture height): (1080i/p) AVCHD, Blu-ray, HD DVD, 16:9

- For example Here we can see that the "DVD" beats the "ED-Beta" announced 550 lines in everyway Pal, Ntsc, 4:3 full screen and even
more in 16:9....
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 Post subject: Re: Picture quality scale by format
PostPosted: 18 Mar 2018, 13:19 
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Seems like no one has mentioned Sony U-Matic, which was fairly popular in Italy.

Also, are we only reffering to distribution formats for feature films? Otherwise we'll have to count in Digitbeta, 1" tape, DVCam and HDV. Man, HDV is a real nightmare to get running properly due to the Firewire connection. On the film archive where I work we had to look for some really obscure hardware to even get 1080i out of that player since we didn't feel like transfer the tapes to an old Mac.
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 Post subject: Re: Picture quality scale by format
PostPosted: 18 Mar 2018, 15:57 
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How about UMD, that format for the Sony PSP? They released movies on that and it had a resolution comparable to DVD.
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 Post subject: Re: Picture quality scale by format
PostPosted: 18 Mar 2018, 18:49 
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UMD video had a resolution of 480x272 if I remember correctly (the exact resolution of the PSP screen.) I've never seen a UMD movie in practice, but since the capacity of UMD was just under 2GB I can't imagine the bitrate on the video was very high if they wanted to put a whole movie on one UMD.

So to put it in perspective, the highest bitrate on DVD-Video is 6Mbps. A 90 minute movie at that data rate would need to just over 4GB storage, and a 2 hour movie would need 5.4GB (which is why dual-layer DVDs were necessary for a lot of movies at the highest bitrate.)

Thus in order to get at least a 90 minute movie on a 1.8GB UMD, the bitrate couldn't be higher than somewhere between 2-3Mbps. Even less than that if they wanted to be sure to be able to put a 2 hour movie on 1 UMD.

So if that were to be put on the list, it would at best be below DVD, but beyond that, wouldn't know where exactly to put it.
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 Post subject: Re: Picture quality scale by format
PostPosted: 18 Mar 2018, 19:21 
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But U-matic was mostly professional right?

Svcd and UMD are downgraded DVD's so...and they didn't receive (for home)standalone decks


Last edited by ertoili on 18 Mar 2018, 19:41, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Picture quality scale by format
PostPosted: 18 Mar 2018, 19:38 
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Vcd (worst)
CED
Video 8
Video 2000
VHD
Vhs
Beta
Vhs SQPB
Super Beta
S-Vhs
Video Hi8
Ed-Beta
Laserdisc
W-Vhs
DVD (hdmi)
Laserdisc HiVision
Sony HDVS
mini DV
D-Vhs D-Theater
HD DVD
Bluray
Bluray HDR (Best
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 Post subject: Re: Picture quality scale by format
PostPosted: 19 Mar 2018, 02:37 
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As promised here are some screencaps from The Rock VCD

Attachment:
vlcsnap-2018-03-18-21h29m46s431.png
vlcsnap-2018-03-18-21h29m46s431.png [ 110.73 KiB | Viewed 570 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Picture quality scale by format
PostPosted: 19 Mar 2018, 02:38 
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Attachment:
vlcsnap-2018-03-18-21h33m42s665.png
vlcsnap-2018-03-18-21h33m42s665.png [ 107.51 KiB | Viewed 570 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Picture quality scale by format
PostPosted: 19 Mar 2018, 02:38 
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Attachment:
vlcsnap-2018-03-18-21h34m13s710.png
vlcsnap-2018-03-18-21h34m13s710.png [ 98.62 KiB | Viewed 570 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Picture quality scale by format
PostPosted: 19 Mar 2018, 02:39 
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Attachment:
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vlcsnap-2018-03-18-21h34m55s921.png [ 87.34 KiB | Viewed 570 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Picture quality scale by format
PostPosted: 19 Mar 2018, 05:44 
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The Rock Vcd....not bad,they look solid...thank you!

Problem with Vcd is motion and the low square 352x288
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 Post subject: Re: Picture quality scale by format
PostPosted: 19 Mar 2018, 06:18 
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Yeah, like almost all VCDs the MPEG tiling effect does happen when it moves. Thankfully not as bad as most with this title, but it's still there.
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 Post subject: Re: Picture quality scale by format
PostPosted: 19 Mar 2018, 06:53 
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forper wrote:
do any of my VCDs have PCM sound? Readout on VLC says my Amuro Namie live has 44k sampling MPEG 1/2? CD quality? I never really had the gear to test it back then. Have gear now but no VCD playback capability on my system either...

Nah, both the video and audio are MPEG-1 compressed. 224 kbps is what I've read that VCD audio maxes out at. CD just doesn't have the storage capacity for anything more.
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 Post subject: Re: Picture quality scale by format
PostPosted: 19 Mar 2018, 13:41 
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Not sure why W-vhs has been ranked so low. It was an HDTV format. And from this example, it appears to look vastly superior compared to dvd:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31-32zSA8zY&t=462s
(not my capture, of course, just found it on youtube. There are several other examples, and they all appear to have the same quality. I searched "w-vhs demo")
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 Post subject: Re: Picture quality scale by format
PostPosted: 19 Mar 2018, 17:49 
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nickdiba wrote:
Not sure why W-vhs has been ranked so low. It was an HDTV format. And from this example, it appears to look vastly superior compared to dvd:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31-32zSA8zY&t=462s
(not my capture, of course, just found it on youtube. There are several other examples, and they all appear to have the same quality. I searched "w-vhs demo")


it needs an almost impossible to find external interface to record 1035i....otherwise it will play/record like a S-Vhs....
Anyway although the decks look consumer they were used profesionally and only one or two docummentaries were available to buy.....

the video looks better than DVD that's true.
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 Post subject: Re: Picture quality scale by format
PostPosted: 19 Mar 2018, 17:50 
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Vcd (worst)
CED
Video 8
Video 2000
VHD
Vhs
Beta
Vhs SQPB
Super Beta
S-Vhs
Video Hi8
Ed-Beta
Laserdisc
DVD (hdmi)
W-Vhs
Laserdisc HiVision
Sony HDVS
mini DV
D-Vhs D-Theater
HD DVD
Bluray
Bluray HDR (Best)
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 Post subject: Re: Picture quality scale by format
PostPosted: 20 Mar 2018, 05:28 
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ertoili wrote:
it needs an almost impossible to find external interface to record 1035i....otherwise it will play/record like a S-Vhs....
Anyway although the decks look consumer they were used profesionally and only one or two docummentaries were available to buy.....


That's not actually correct - W-VHS machines have component inputs (and outputs) right there on the machine. Perhaps you're thinking of D-VHS which I think needs to use a firewire interface to be capable of HD input? "Great America" which was a demo tape included with the decks is the only pre-recorded tape I've heard of so far. Interestingly I did find an agreement between Victor and Macrovision relating to W-VHS so they must have had bigger plans; but then the video world went all digital. The majority of the sales were of domestic models and they seem to have been relatively popular in Japan (judging by availability on YJP) for such expensive decks.

ertoili wrote:
the video looks better than DVD that's true.

W-VHS is 1035i but at around 8MHz bandwidth can't really be considered to be true full HD (Muse for example compresses a 20MHz HD signal down to about 8MHz, note that W-VHS records a baseband signal, it does not use Muse.) I'd like to think it could be better than DVD, and in some ways I do think the might picture look better, but then you can see obvious tell-tale signs of a tape format like this (thinking of recordings I've made from blu-ray). Whether overall its similar or a bit better or worse I just don't watch enough DVD to call it really and I haven't found the time yet to try to do a direct comparison.
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 Post subject: Re: Picture quality scale by format
PostPosted: 20 Mar 2018, 22:36 
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I understood from Wikipedia that a W-vhs deck can only record 480i from Component inputs cause does not recognize 720p or 1080i (only 1035i)....but I'm not sure !!

It also says as you mentioned that can record SD and HD from component.

W-vhs really looks mighty on that YouTube video...vs DVD at 1080p ? Dunno cause digital is pause perfect and color infinite but W-vhs definitely feels bigger....we can give them a draw match
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 Post subject: Re: Picture quality scale by format
PostPosted: 20 Mar 2018, 22:42 
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Vcd (worst)
CED
Video 8
Video 2000
VHD
Vhs
Beta
Vhs SQPB
Super Beta
S-Vhs
Video Hi8
Ed-Beta
Laserdisc
DVD (hdmi) ------ W-Vhs
Laserdisc HiVision
Sony HDVS
mini DV
D-Vhs D-Theater
HD DVD
Bluray
Bluray HDR (Best
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 Post subject: Re: Picture quality scale by format
PostPosted: 20 Mar 2018, 23:40 
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ertoili wrote:
I understood from Wikipedia that a W-vhs deck can only record 480i from Component inputs cause does not recognize 720p or 1080i (only 1035i)....but I'm not sure !!


It's not progressive compatible interlaced only; specifically 480i and 1035i. W-VHS will record from a 1080i source fine, just the extra 45 lines are cropped from the picture!

I hope to have my new matrix switcher here and all set up soon (it might take a few weeks as now I need to invest in a whole lot more cables to hook it all up too), which will make doing all those kinds of comparisons with different gear so much easier. A DVD vs W-VHS will have to be on the cards!

I'm barracking for W-VHS like you, but I have some bias so want to be more objective about it. I'll choose something I have on DVD and BR, make a W-VHS recording off the BR and compare that to the DVD.
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