I have a couple of copies of this LD Rush: A Show of Hands (1988) [080 575-1] [one copy with "Lock and Key", the other without]. Being a music collector I bought these primarily for the audio tracks and though I have seen a little of the video element and that appears to be fine there are a few clicks in the soundtrack on both discs that I understand to be symptomatic of laser rot. On importing the audio to my computer I have discovered that these clicks are individual samples making up a minute fraction of the whole soundtrack.
All said and done, these clicks are hardly an issue except for the most anal audiophile but my question is: should these be reported for rot or not? When I look at the definitions for the grading of rot the audio track is only mentioned at grades 4 and 5 but my instinct is that these should be reported at grade 1 as the most minor distraction.
Incidentally, I also have the UK edition with "Lock and Key": Rush: A Show of Hands (1989) [080 574-1] and as far as I can tell both the picture content and the audio are as clean as a whistle.

The other example is this: Anderson, Bruford, Wakeman, Howe: An Evening of Yes Music Plus (1989) [ID3026GI]. Here sides one and three are perfect but side two has a very good picture (as far as I have seen) but the soundtrack is clearly compromised. There is an ugly, growling distortion that can be detected from ~7' to ~27' and also on the last track on the side (~last 5').
Instinctively I would assess this at around grade 2 rot but again the definitions on this site make no mention of this. I know that on the Net somewhere there is an example of a classical LD where the picture is still pristine and the audio is unlistenable.

Is there an existing forum topic covering this subject?
Should I have posted in the Music LaserDisc forum?

Anyway, any advice / guidance would be appreciated because I feel that these discs should be reported but I don't want to report them inaccurately.

If the picture is perfect it almost certainly isn't rot but rather some other defect. "Rot" isn't a term that is meant to describe every single problem an LD can have (even though people do that) it's meant to describe an oxidation process that begins at some point and eventually gets worse and worse. It doesn't include defects in the master, crud on the stamper, warping, or any other problems.

Actual rot is going to spread evenly and indiscriminately along the disc. I don't really see how it could possibly effect *only* the audio since the audio represents a much smaller portion of the disc than the video does and is generally more durable, especially digital tracks.

there is a topic where i believe disclord says that the analog audio will have static from rot but if you hear it on both then it might be a mastering issue.

there is a topic about this, so you should check that out.

Thanks for the replies. I've tried looking for the forum topic but no luck so far.
I've converted part of the ABWH recording to mp3 but seem unable to load it up here for others to check out. Any ideas? I don't want to upset the copyright holders but I would like the damage assessed and identified because I would wish to report it accurately when I get round to selling the discs.
I've no idea if the picture is perfect - although I know what I'm supposed to be looking for you don't necessarily spot it unless you have a keen eye and/or experience in these matters. I've almost reported two or three items already for what turned out to be video artefacts.
"defects in the master, crud on the stamper, warping, or any other problems"... Yes, all possible. The discs don't look warped to me and in the case of side two of the ABWH set, side one plays fine and of course you can't see how the disc is behaving but perhaps the lamination is failing?
"Actual rot is going to spread evenly and indiscriminately along the disc." In the case of CDs and CD-Rs rot is indiscriminate as you say, but even? If the cause is contact with the air at a poorly sealed rim then the rot starts at the edge of the disc and works its way towards the centre. I think that it is possible that rot on LaserDiscs can be patchy as I have described.

Yeah, I didn't explain myself well. One area or another can experince rot (the beginning of sides, often times). What I meant to explain was that the entire audio-visual content of an LD is picked up by a single laser, a single signal with other signals muxed into it. The VAST majority of this signal's bandwidth is taken up by the picture. The picture is also more susceptible to rot than sound, and digital sound is less fragile than the analog sound.

So if you have issues with sound, especially the digital tracks, and no issues with video then I'm pretty sure this isn't rot since it would require an EXTREMELY intricate rot pattern. It would be like falling out of a 100 story building and landing with no ill effects other than cataracs. It seems much more likely that its anything else; your player or the master, probably.

OK. That does make sense. Thanks.

Hopefully this link will work: an mp3 I've made of a section of the ABWH recording that highlights the ugly distortion found on around half of side two - https://dl.dropbox.com/u/78912124/yuk.mp3 . There is a click at around 1:03 and the crunchy distortion is quite obvious from around 1:30 onwards. Can anyone identify what kind of damage this is?
PS I tried uploading it onto this site but the upload never seemed to complete.

could be rot, could be mastering issue.

i have some mozart CDs that have the same poping crackling, i don't know if it's rot or just a cheaper master.

so those are your options, one might be right, one might be wrong.
or bother are right, you pick.

My copy of Kool & The Gang: Tonight, which was Pioneer's first US digital sound release, and was perfect the day I got it when released and until about 2 years ago, now has completely distorted digital sound on all players but perfect picture and analog sound. It's the only disc I've ever had go bad like that.

Is this from the analog track or the digital?

DTS music Video Concert of EAGLES I have just reported, as the one that I purchased around 8 months ago has sound popping on each side towards the end of side A which continues on side B Sad but true.

The good news is that the picture is great.

I have just purchased and received the Japanese Version with Stereo Sound in top unmarked condition.
Will be playing this this coming Weekend 23rd March and will post the results on Monday 25th March.

I will at some stage purchase another DTS Version as they cannot all be bad, and with no other reports so far maybe mine was just a one off.

Regards to all

This transfer is taken from the digital track [optical signal]. The digital signal on the remaining two sides is perfect.
When I checked out the analogue signal the result was the same but you're right to remind me about that - I'll take an analogue recording off the disc and see what the results are like. Thanks.

Excuse me of this sounds condensing, but when you switched to the analog track did you also switch to the analog outputs? Your LD player's optical output will only output digital regardless of what you select. Only the stereo line level outputs can output analog sound.

No, you don't sound condescending because it's always possible to think you've done something when in fact you haven't. I believe I switched the audio feed when I compared the audio tracks.
To make sure, I'm transferring the audio now as I write this so hopefully in an hour or two I'll be able to report my findings [I'll post up an mp3 of the same musical passage if there is anything to report].
I'm transferring via the analogue feed (phono cable) today because I'm recording onto my old computer that doesn't have an optical input. If I have done something as dumb as fail to switch the audio feed I'll soon be found out.
Thanks again for your help.

I was right. Here's the same extract from the analogue soundtrack: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/78912124/yuk%202.mp3 .

Hm...I don't know what to think about this!

On one hand, the defect is very similar sounding on each track. Since jacked up analog shouldn't sound like jacked up digital this leads me to think that the problem was in the master. The UK version must have been made earlier, before the thing was damaged, or perhaps from a different tape all together.

However, the defect isn't actually identical between A and D just very similar, so why would that be?

Does anyone know enough about LDs to know if the analog and digital tracks are done in the same take? If they weren't made simultaneously perhaps the problem existed in the master but sounded slightly different every time it was played back (perhaps physical damage to the original convert tape) then you'd see this.

Re-reading some of this stuff it seems like you have two different versions of the same concert with one missing a song. Which side got edited, and is it the same side with the defect?

Anyway, considering the same problem is on two different pressings and on both analog and digital tracks, I'm thinking the problem is most likely on the master tape and no matter how many copies you buy you are always going to be hearing it.


Too band you have three copies of this concert but none are the same pressing!

The FM audio tracks on LaserDisc are very limited in how they handle high level, high frequency sounds, so perhaps that could account for the difference?

I've confused you without meaning to. The LD that I have two versions of is Rush - A Show of Hands. In fact I have three versions and only the PDO UK version has flawless audio but on the US copies there are only momentary clicks.

The ugly recordings I've posted up are from Anderson Bruford Wakeman Howe - "An Evening of Yes Music Plus..." It is a US edition (there's no UK equivalent that I know of) and there are also two Japanese versions.
As you say, the damage is not identical but is the same sort of damage and may betray the same kind of flaw. Of course it could be a mastering problem but surely a flawed master would lead to the withdrawal and replacement of this product?
It might be that the lamination is failing and the damaged passages occur where the data is no longer perpendicular to the laser pickup. I've heard this kind of yuk when CD-Rs with paper labels dish in a warm CD-ROM player [the plastic expands but the paper doesn't - don't use paper labels on CD-Rs and DVD-Rs].
But I'm just guessing here.

Just to recap; both of these sound samples come from the B side of the only ABWH set in my collection - i.e. the same piece of plastic. One is the Digital signal, the other the Analogue.