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svwees
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Post subject: Re: Were 8" LDs more expensive to produce? Posted: 18 Oct 2015, 20:19 |
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Joined: 27 Jun 2006, 18:20 Posts: 222 Location: Netherlands Has thanked: 0 time Been thanked: 2 times
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Interesting. Reminds me of the 3" vs. 5" cd singles. 3" cd singles were far less common than 5" cd singles. But funny fact, nowadays you see a ship load of 3" cd's being used for distributing software for small devices as the 3" cd can fit a smaller package. And then i mean even very cheap devices like keyring photoframes. So it suprises me why they now can use 3"s easily while in the 90's 5"s were chosen over 3"s. Or are the software 3"s just 5"s pressed with software and then just punched to 3"? happycube wrote: They should have been cheaper, but volume might've played a bit. The LD singles should've been cheaper still. Do you mean the 5" cdv's or the single sided 8" ld's? I also wonder in productivity cost where the cdv's would fit in. Was it a project making use of existing cd plants completely seperated from the ld plants, or was a cd plant installed inside the ld plant, being altered with the video installations added to it? I know in shops they cost a few bucks more than a normal cd, but contained only a few songs, like a normal cd single, but 2,5 times more expensive than a cd single as 99% of the buyers, like me, never had the opportunity at the time to watch the videopart, nor knowing any neighbours that would have owned an ld player, let alone one that could also playback pcm and cdv's. I saw them in a cd store next to cd's, without ever seeing ld's around.
_________________ My Laserdiscs Philips CDV 185, Pioneer D925/D515/PD 707V, Sony CDP 301V, Yamaha CDV S100/CDV M777
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svwees
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Post subject: Re: Were 8" LDs more expensive to produce? Posted: 19 Oct 2015, 21:44 |
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Joined: 27 Jun 2006, 18:20 Posts: 222 Location: Netherlands Has thanked: 0 time Been thanked: 2 times
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publius wrote: CDV-Singles were pressed on standard CD equipment in the same facilities as any other CDs. It was only the mastering process that was different, & required certain modifications to the equipment (but perhaps less than you might think). So that makes the way free to experiment with cd-r's might one of us can get hold of the equipment, if not destroyed or protected, heavily licensed etc.. (like with sacd, where you can't burn the physical rom mark yourself if you don't have the equipment). I read in other post that it was kind of a project of yours to be able to try to do that cdv on cd-r and that it would be more feasible than hauling with left over ld-r's or ld equipment. Somehow... it would be a nice project if it would succeed. And some vsd's look really nice, pq wise. But ... well for fun. It is cute, but getting up again each time for each video starts to get entiring. With even 8"s you got at least 3 video's on a single sided cav disc. What would be an approximate estimate of how many 12"s vs how many 8"s vs how many 5"s were produced? (Of course the total years leveled as average per year as 5"s were shortlived)
_________________ My Laserdiscs Philips CDV 185, Pioneer D925/D515/PD 707V, Sony CDP 301V, Yamaha CDV S100/CDV M777
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daro2096
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Post subject: Re: Were 8" LDs more expensive to produce? Posted: 20 Oct 2015, 10:53 |
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Joined: 27 Mar 2015, 18:35 Posts: 350 Location: United Kingdom Has thanked: 0 time Been thanked: 0 time
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svwees wrote: publius wrote: CDV-Singles were pressed on standard CD equipment in the same facilities as any other CDs. It was only the mastering process that was different, & required certain modifications to the equipment (but perhaps less than you might think). So that makes the way free to experiment with cd-r's might one of us can get hold of the equipment, if not destroyed or protected, heavily licensed etc.. (like with sacd, where you can't burn the physical rom mark yourself if you don't have the equipment). I read in other post that it was kind of a project of yours to be able to try to do that cdv on cd-r and that it would be more feasible than hauling with left over ld-r's or ld equipment. Somehow... it would be a nice project if it would succeed. And some vsd's look really nice, pq wise. But ... well for fun. It is cute, but getting up again each time for each video starts to get entiring. With even 8"s you got at least 3 video's on a single sided cav disc. What would be an approximate estimate of how many 12"s vs how many 8"s vs how many 5"s were produced? (Of course the total years leveled as average per year as 5"s were shortlived) 8" CAV is only 7 minutes per side. CLV was 20 minutes per side.
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blam1
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Post subject: Re: Were 8" LDs more expensive to produce? Posted: 20 Oct 2015, 16:17 |
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Joined: 21 Dec 2002, 18:44 Posts: 959 Has thanked: 0 time Been thanked: 122 times
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daro2096 wrote: 8" CAV is only 7 minutes per side. CLV was 20 minutes per side.
CAV play is 14 minutes per side on an 8" disc.
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daro2096
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Post subject: Re: Were 8" LDs more expensive to produce? Posted: 20 Oct 2015, 17:09 |
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Joined: 27 Mar 2015, 18:35 Posts: 350 Location: United Kingdom Has thanked: 0 time Been thanked: 0 time
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blam1 wrote: daro2096 wrote: 8" CAV is only 7 minutes per side. CLV was 20 minutes per side.
CAV play is 14 minutes per side on an 8" disc. I thought it was 14 minutes total both sides?
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publius
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Post subject: Re: Were 8" LDs more expensive to produce? Posted: 20 Oct 2015, 18:50 |
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Joined: 23 Sep 2003, 18:14 Posts: 1391 Location: United States Has thanked: 39 times Been thanked: 21 times
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daro2096 wrote: blam1 wrote: CAV play is 14 minutes per side on an 8" disc. I thought it was 14 minutes total both sides? No, in CAV playtime is determined by the number of concentric tracks, which in turn is determined by the distance between the inner & outer edges of the playing area. Take a ruler & measure that for the 20 cm & 30 cm discs, & you will see that, since the inner radius is about 5 cm, the width of the play zone is about half for the smaller disc what it is for the larger disc (5 vs 10 cm). Thus the playing times must be in the same proportion, & since a 30 cm CAV disc plays half an hour, a 20 cm CAV disc must play about a quarter of an hour.
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daro2096
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Post subject: Re: Were 8" LDs more expensive to produce? Posted: 20 Oct 2015, 19:10 |
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Joined: 27 Mar 2015, 18:35 Posts: 350 Location: United Kingdom Has thanked: 0 time Been thanked: 0 time
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publius wrote: daro2096 wrote: blam1 wrote: CAV play is 14 minutes per side on an 8" disc. I thought it was 14 minutes total both sides? No, in CAV playtime is determined by the number of concentric tracks, which in turn is determined by the distance between the inner & outer edges of the playing area. Take a ruler & measure that for the 20 cm & 30 cm discs, & you will see that, since the inner radius is about 5 cm, the width of the play zone is about half for the smaller disc what it is for the larger disc (5 vs 10 cm). Thus the playing times must be in the same proportion, & since a 30 cm CAV disc plays half an hour, a 20 cm CAV disc must play about a quarter of an hour. I stand corrected then but I thought the futher out from the centre the longer the groove(I forget what it is called) or surface area?
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publius
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Post subject: Re: Were 8" LDs more expensive to produce? Posted: 20 Oct 2015, 19:55 |
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Joined: 23 Sep 2003, 18:14 Posts: 1391 Location: United States Has thanked: 39 times Been thanked: 21 times
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daro2096 wrote: I stand corrected then but I thought the futher out from the centre the longer the groove(I forget what it is called) or surface area? Track length is important for CLV discs, but not for CAV discs. That is what the terms refer to : the CLV disc plays at a constant linear tracking speed, while the CAV disc plays one frame per rotation. At its outer play limit, the 30 cm CLV disc spins at 1/3 its speed at the inner play limit, or 600 RPM, because the circumference (track length) at the outermost track is 3 times the innermost circumference, & 3 frames can be written there. The average play speed is thus 1/2 that of a CAV disc, & so the play time is double. On a 20 cm disc, the outer circumference is only 2 times the inner circumference, so the average play speed is not reduced by much, & the the difference between CAV & CLV playtimes is proportionally less.
_________________ MUSE decoder information and user guides LD player connexion guide
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daro2096
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Post subject: Re: Were 8" LDs more expensive to produce? Posted: 20 Oct 2015, 21:06 |
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Joined: 27 Mar 2015, 18:35 Posts: 350 Location: United Kingdom Has thanked: 0 time Been thanked: 0 time
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publius wrote: daro2096 wrote: I stand corrected then but I thought the futher out from the centre the longer the groove(I forget what it is called) or surface area? Track length is important for CLV discs, but not for CAV discs. That is what the terms refer to : the CLV disc plays at a constant linear tracking speed, while the CAV disc plays one frame per rotation. At its outer play limit, the 30 cm CLV disc spins at 1/3 its speed at the inner play limit, or 600 RPM, because the circumference (track length) at the outermost track is 3 times the innermost circumference, & 3 frames can be written there. The average play speed is thus 1/2 that of a CAV disc, & so the play time is double. On a 20 cm disc, the outer circumference is only 2 times the inner circumference, so the average play speed is not reduced by much, & the the difference between CAV & CLV playtimes is proportionally less. I am sure what you say is correct but CLV was abandoned around 1982 in favor of CAA but the term CLV stuck.
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publius
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Post subject: Re: Were 8" LDs more expensive to produce? Posted: 20 Oct 2015, 22:35 |
Hardcore fan |
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Joined: 23 Sep 2003, 18:14 Posts: 1391 Location: United States Has thanked: 39 times Been thanked: 21 times
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daro2096 wrote: I am sure what you say is correct but CLV was abandoned around 1982 in favor of CAA but the term CLV stuck. "CAA" represents a minor tweak to the CLV technique. From a practical standpoint, it works the same way. As with phase modulation & frequency modulation, the distinction is important only in very restricted contexts.
_________________ MUSE decoder information and user guides LD player connexion guide
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daro2096
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Post subject: Re: Were 8" LDs more expensive to produce? Posted: 21 Oct 2015, 19:00 |
True fan |
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Joined: 27 Mar 2015, 18:35 Posts: 350 Location: United Kingdom Has thanked: 0 time Been thanked: 0 time
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publius wrote: daro2096 wrote: I am sure what you say is correct but CLV was abandoned around 1982 in favor of CAA but the term CLV stuck. "CAA" represents a minor tweak to the CLV technique. From a practical standpoint, it works the same way. As with phase modulation & frequency modulation, the distinction is important only in very restricted contexts. CLV is where the disc starts at 1800/1500 rpm and slows down gradulary to 600rpm where as CAA works similar to how your DVD/Blu-Ray burner works at burning disc in higher speeds, a 16x speed disc doesn't burn at 16x speed all through the disc but only at the outer edges(or it is the inner edge?).
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publius
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Post subject: Re: Were 8" LDs more expensive to produce? Posted: 21 Oct 2015, 19:52 |
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Joined: 23 Sep 2003, 18:14 Posts: 1391 Location: United States Has thanked: 39 times Been thanked: 21 times
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daro2096 wrote: CLV is where the disc starts at 1800/1500 rpm and slows down gradulary to 600rpm where as CAA works similar to how your DVD/Blu-Ray burner works at burning disc in higher speeds, a 16x speed disc doesn't burn at 16x speed all through the disc but only at the outer edges(or it is the inner edge?). You are confusing different things. A high-speed "burner" runs at approximately constant angular velocity (CAV), so that it increases its "writing speed" as it moves outward, reaching the highest multiplier at the outer radius. It can do this precisely because the CD/DVD/BD is a CLV product, that is, (approximately) constant track length per unit of information recorded.
_________________ MUSE decoder information and user guides LD player connexion guide
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