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 Post subject: Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
PostPosted: 18 May 2012, 13:02 
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lizardkingjr wrote:
disclord wrote:
Panasonic's first DVD-R recorder, the DMR-E20, has an excellent 3D comb filter and you can switch it to 2d if needed in the menu. On the Snell zone plate test, there are no rainbows when the zone plate stops moving, nor are there any rainbows in the top two diagonal blocks at any time. It's also full 1.5MHz bandwidth on the color channels so it gives full 120 lines color resolution on LaserDisc's. Many comb filters only have .5 MHz bandwidth which translates to only 40 lines of color resolution.


I would imagine that the whole DMR-E* line of recorders is the same, no?

TLK :cool:


That I don't know. I just know that the 3D comb filter in the E20 is superb and I've never had a complaint with it. Plus, the time base corrector stabilizes the LaserDisc signal when I use the digital effects on CLV discs so my flat screen doesn't lose sync during FX playback.
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 Post subject: Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
PostPosted: 20 May 2012, 05:27 
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disclord wrote:
... It's also full 1.5MHz bandwidth on the color channels so it gives full 120 lines color resolution on LaserDisc's. Many comb filters only have .5 MHz bandwidth which translates to only 40 lines of color resolution.

Is there a way to test a comb filter for this?
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 Post subject: Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
PostPosted: 20 May 2012, 13:12 
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naiaru wrote:
disclord wrote:
... It's also full 1.5MHz bandwidth on the color channels so it gives full 120 lines color resolution on LaserDisc's. Many comb filters only have .5 MHz bandwidth which translates to only 40 lines of color resolution.

Is there a way to test a comb filter for this?


The snell&willcocks zone plate test on video essentials has the color resolution test bars at the bottom. They test .5, 1.0 and 1.5 MHz. The full frame tests on the THX box set of the Abyss, chapter 55 I believe after the film, also has in-depth color resolution tests as does digital video essentials on DVD - you can use the RCA component out of the DVD player into the device you want to test.
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 Post subject: Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
PostPosted: 20 May 2012, 18:47 
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disclord wrote:
naiaru wrote:
disclord wrote:
... It's also full 1.5MHz bandwidth on the color channels so it gives full 120 lines color resolution on LaserDisc's. Many comb filters only have .5 MHz bandwidth which translates to only 40 lines of color resolution.

Is there a way to test a comb filter for this?


The snell&willcocks zone plate test on video essentials has the color resolution test bars at the bottom. They test .5, 1.0 and 1.5 MHz. The full frame tests on the THX box set of the Abyss, chapter 55 I believe after the film, also has in-depth color resolution tests as does digital video essentials on DVD - you can use the RCA component out of the DVD player into the device you want to test.

So I'm looking at them on the VE LD, how do I tell if I passed or not?
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 Post subject: Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
PostPosted: 20 May 2012, 21:33 
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On the Snell test, the last chroma lines, the 1.5 MHz pattern will be bright and clear yellow/blue (or orange/cyan depending on the color axis the decoder uses) - if it's faded or gray, the comb filter doesn't have full chroma response. If the middle 1.0 MHz pattern is faded or gray, then you have less than 80 horizontal lines of color. If only the .5 pattern is full color, and the others are gray or super faded, then you have 40 horizontal lines of color. There's more complexity to NTSC composite color, but that's the simple explanation to do a quick test.

Since DVD can have 250+ lines of color horizontally, most all DVD recorders decode full horizontal color bandwidth for best recording quality. In the vertical direction, LaserDisc actually has higher color resolution than DVD... LaserDisc can have 480 lines of vertical color resolution... DVD is only 240.
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 Post subject: Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
PostPosted: 20 May 2012, 22:30 
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disclord wrote:
On the Snell test, the last chroma lines, the 1.5 MHz pattern will be bright and clear yellow/blue (or orange/cyan depending on the color axis the decoder uses) - if it's faded or gray, the comb filter doesn't have full chroma response. If the middle 1.0 MHz pattern is faded or gray, then you have less than 80 horizontal lines of color. If only the .5 pattern is full color, and the others are gray or super faded, then you have 40 horizontal lines of color. There's more complexity to NTSC composite color, but that's the simple explanation to do a quick test.

Since DVD can have 250+ lines of color horizontally, most all DVD recorders decode full horizontal color bandwidth for best recording quality. In the vertical direction, LaserDisc actually has higher color resolution than DVD... LaserDisc can have 480 lines of vertical color resolution... DVD is only 240.

What does it mean if both 1.0 and 1.5 are red/cyan and .5 is blue/yellow?
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 Post subject: Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
PostPosted: 21 May 2012, 00:54 
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naiaru wrote:
disclord wrote:
On the Snell test, the last chroma lines, the 1.5 MHz pattern will be bright and clear yellow/blue (or orange/cyan depending on the color axis the decoder uses) - if it's faded or gray, the comb filter doesn't have full chroma response. If the middle 1.0 MHz pattern is faded or gray, then you have less than 80 horizontal lines of color. If only the .5 pattern is full color, and the others are gray or super faded, then you have 40 horizontal lines of color. There's more complexity to NTSC composite color, but that's the simple explanation to do a quick test.

Since DVD can have 250+ lines of color horizontally, most all DVD recorders decode full horizontal color bandwidth for best recording quality. In the vertical direction, LaserDisc actually has higher color resolution than DVD... LaserDisc can have 480 lines of vertical color resolution... DVD is only 240.

What does it mean if both 1.0 and 1.5 are red/cyan and .5 is blue/yellow?


Nothing bad... Your decoder is just decoding on a slightly different color axis which gets corrected so discs have correct color when you align your television with the SMPTE color bars and blue filter. And it means you are getting the full color resolution of the LaserDisc. Also if the two boxes at the top of the Snell pattern - the ones with the diagonals... If they have no rainbows your comb filter is 3D.
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 Post subject: Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
PostPosted: 21 May 2012, 01:08 
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disclord wrote:
naiaru wrote:
disclord wrote:
On the Snell test, the last chroma lines, the 1.5 MHz pattern will be bright and clear yellow/blue (or orange/cyan depending on the color axis the decoder uses) - if it's faded or gray, the comb filter doesn't have full chroma response. If the middle 1.0 MHz pattern is faded or gray, then you have less than 80 horizontal lines of color. If only the .5 pattern is full color, and the others are gray or super faded, then you have 40 horizontal lines of color. There's more complexity to NTSC composite color, but that's the simple explanation to do a quick test.

Since DVD can have 250+ lines of color horizontally, most all DVD recorders decode full horizontal color bandwidth for best recording quality. In the vertical direction, LaserDisc actually has higher color resolution than DVD... LaserDisc can have 480 lines of vertical color resolution... DVD is only 240.

What does it mean if both 1.0 and 1.5 are red/cyan and .5 is blue/yellow?


Nothing bad... Your decoder is just decoding on a slightly different color axis which gets corrected so discs have correct color when you align your television with the SMPTE color bars and blue filter. And it means you are getting the full color resolution of the LaserDisc. Also if the two boxes at the top of the Snell pattern - the ones with the diagonals... If they have no rainbows your comb filter is 3D.

What if they have ever-so-slight rainbowing, but the rainbowing of the circular pattern still changes depending on motion?
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 Post subject: Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
PostPosted: 21 May 2012, 01:32 
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naiaru wrote:
What if they have ever-so-slight rainbowing, but the rainbowing of the circular pattern still changes depending on motion?


It could be a really good 2D adaptive filter or a 3D filter that is mistaking motion in still mages... Or a 3D filter that just isn't too good. Does the rainbow on the circle zone plate go away when it stops moving and if so, do the squares lose their rainbows too? Or is there always some residual rainbowing? BTW, which DVD recorder is it? A good test too is to compare the direct s-video feed from the LaserDisc player into your TV with the LD's composite into the DVD recorder... You can then see which is better with fewer artifacts, etc...
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 Post subject: Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
PostPosted: 21 May 2012, 02:19 
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disclord wrote:
naiaru wrote:
What if they have ever-so-slight rainbowing, but the rainbowing of the circular pattern still changes depending on motion?


It could be a really good 2D adaptive filter or a 3D filter that is mistaking motion in still mages... Or a 3D filter that just isn't too good. Does the rainbow on the circle zone plate go away when it stops moving and if so, do the squares lose their rainbows too? Or is there always some residual rainbowing? BTW, which DVD recorder is it? A good test too is to compare the direct s-video feed from the LaserDisc player into your TV with the LD's composite into the DVD recorder... You can then see which is better with fewer artifacts, etc...

The rainbows never go away 100%. The DVD Recorder is a Panasonic DMR-E80H. I've tested it against a DRC8335, a DVDO HD, multiple TVS (I can't remember the model numbers for them all), a Samsung DVD-R135 and the LD player itself (a CLD-D703) among other things and the Panasonic DMR-E80H is the best so far. And while we're on the subject, I have noticed that somehow my experience tends to be worse with these things than others seem to be. With the DRC8335 for example, even my stills with it aren't as good as this guy's with his CLD-D704. Is it possible that there's something up with the player itself that would change the comb filter results?
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 Post subject: Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
PostPosted: 21 May 2012, 02:40 
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naiaru wrote:
disclord wrote:
naiaru wrote:
What if they have ever-so-slight rainbowing, but the rainbowing of the circular pattern still changes depending on motion?


It could be a really good 2D adaptive filter or a 3D filter that is mistaking motion in still mages... Or a 3D filter that just isn't too good. Does the rainbow on the circle zone plate go away when it stops moving and if so, do the squares lose their rainbows too? Or is there always some residual rainbowing? BTW, which DVD recorder is it? A good test too is to compare the direct s-video feed from the LaserDisc player into your TV with the LD's composite into the DVD recorder... You can then see which is better with fewer artifacts, etc...

The rainbows never go away 100%. The DVD Recorder is a Panasonic DMR-E80H. I've tested it against a DRC8335, a DVDO HD, multiple TVS (I can't remember the model numbers for them all), a Samsung DVD-R135 and the LD player itself (a CLD-D703) among other things and the Panasonic DMR-E80H is the best so far. And while we're on the subject, I have noticed that somehow my experience tends to be worse with these things than others seem to be. With the DRC8335 for example, even my stills with it aren't as good as this guy's with his CLD-D704. Is it possible that there's something up with the player itself that would change the comb filter results?


If the player has some minor jitter on the video outputs, that would cause the comb filters to not perform optimally. Is your LaserDisc player adjusted perfectly? Does it show crosstalk on CLV discs?
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 Post subject: Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
PostPosted: 21 May 2012, 03:15 
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disclord wrote:
If the player has some minor jitter on the video outputs, that would cause the comb filters to not perform optimally. Is your LaserDisc player adjusted perfectly? Does it show crosstalk on CLV discs?

How could I tell if it was properly adjusted myself (or should I assume that it isn't since it hasn't been serviced at least as long as I've had it)?
There's no crosstalk that I can see, but it does have a problem with the spindle motor that makes some (mostly CLV) discs play pretty loudly.
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 Post subject: Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
PostPosted: 21 May 2012, 03:27 
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naiaru wrote:
disclord wrote:
If the player has some minor jitter on the video outputs, that would cause the comb filters to not perform optimally. Is your LaserDisc player adjusted perfectly? Does it show crosstalk on CLV discs?

How could I tell if it was properly adjusted myself (or should I assume that it isn't since it hasn't been serviced at least as long as I've had it)?
There's no crosstalk that I can see, but it does have a problem with the spindle motor that makes some (mostly CLV) discs play pretty loudly.


You should get Duncan or Kurtis to replace the spindle motor since it sounds like its going out... Which could be adding just enough jitter to make the comb filter not perform optimally. My Panasonic LX-900 is on its way to Duncan now because the tilt servo died and it started crosstalkimg on every CLV disc and caused the comb filter in my set to fill the image with dots. Happily, my MSB modified DVL-700 works perfectly so that's what I'm using now, but I miss my Panasonic.
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 Post subject: Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
PostPosted: 21 May 2012, 04:09 
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disclord wrote:
naiaru wrote:
disclord wrote:
If the player has some minor jitter on the video outputs, that would cause the comb filters to not perform optimally. Is your LaserDisc player adjusted perfectly? Does it show crosstalk on CLV discs?

How could I tell if it was properly adjusted myself (or should I assume that it isn't since it hasn't been serviced at least as long as I've had it)?
There's no crosstalk that I can see, but it does have a problem with the spindle motor that makes some (mostly CLV) discs play pretty loudly.


You should get Duncan or Kurtis to replace the spindle motor since it sounds like its going out... Which could be adding just enough jitter to make the comb filter not perform optimally. My Panasonic LX-900 is on its way to Duncan now because the tilt servo died and it started crosstalkimg on every CLV disc and caused the comb filter in my set to fill the image with dots. Happily, my MSB modified DVL-700 works perfectly so that's what I'm using now, but I miss my Panasonic.

thanks for the help disclord
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 Post subject: Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
PostPosted: 21 May 2012, 14:28 
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Thanks to disclord, this is the best thread on this site IMO! :)

TLK :cool:
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 Post subject: Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
PostPosted: 21 May 2012, 15:44 
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lizardkingjr wrote:
Thanks to disclord, this is the best thread on this site IMO! :)

TLK :cool:


Wow, what a compliment, thank you.

One thing I've been wanting to add about NTSC color is it isn't a full color system. What I mean is, when NTSC was designed in 1952/3, there wasn't room in the spectrum to simply add 3 color channels. So, they dot-interlaced (frequency interlace) the color at the high end of the black and white video spectrum. But, there wasn't room for red, green and blue to all be present at full bandwidth of 120 lines. It turns out that the human visual system sees some colors better than others, with blue being the worst and orange/cyan the best. So NTSC was designed so that large objects were seen in full 3 RGB color detail but with only 40 lines of resolution, and medium size objects, such as outlines, were seen in orange/cyan with 120 lines, and the smallest objects were seen in black and white.

Sadly, the vast majority of televisions only decoded the 40 line RGB color and omitted the orange cyan axis because it was cheaper to make... RCA made some sets in the mid 80's that decoded full color bandwidth. Later, in the 90's, the big 35 inch sets and projectors started decoding full bandwidth. By that time, Faroudja had developed his Super NTSC system that allowed full RGB color for the full 120 lines, with no unequal orange/cyan axis being used and vastly reduced artifacts from decoding. And on LaserDisc, the color resolution could be extended to 2MHz, or 160 lines of full color. The vast majority of discs made after 93 or so are Super NTSC with either full color resolution or even extended color. Deep Impact on LaserDisc is an extended color disc... Its color resolution is as good as the DVD. Even though people hate WEA made discs, it was them who figured out how to encode more Luma bandwidth and color bandwidth. Then Kurary started using the Super NTSC system and the other plants followed suit.

So, discs before the early mid 90's will be narrowband/wide band color and after that mostly full 120 or 160 line color. LaserDisc was the only consumer format to offer full NTSC bandwidth besides broadcast television. All other consumer video formats had only 30 or 40 lines of color and it was so mucked with due to the signal processing that advanced comb filters can't really do much with them.

DVD's big advance was greatly extended color that was stored separately so when viewed via S Video or component, there are no artifacts from having to interleave color and luma together and seperate them as NTSC LD's require.
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 Post subject: Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
PostPosted: 21 May 2012, 16:13 
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Thanks for the great info Disclord. I'm always interested in what LD is capable of and the rationale behind it.

This does bring up the question since we've discussed it before in this thread. Were the source materials capable of this extended color resolution? Were they actually more than capable of the extended color?

I only ask because I'm always wondering if there is a disconnect between source/master and end product when discussing video releases. I read an article about Super Source video who were releasing movies on S-VHS. They were using BetaCam masters for their S-VHS tapes. That causes a sort of disconnect since while Betacam has higher color resolution than S-VHS, S-VHS had higher luma resolution (unless I am mistaken.)
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 Post subject: Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
PostPosted: 21 May 2012, 16:55 
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elahrairrah wrote:
Thanks for the great info Disclord. I'm always interested in what LD is capable of and the rationale behind it.

This does bring up the question since we've discussed it before in this thread. Were the source materials capable of this extended color resolution? Were they actually more than capable of the extended color?

I only ask because I'm always wondering if there is a disconnect between source/master and end product when discussing video releases. I read an article about Super Source video who were releasing movies on S-VHS. They were using BetaCam masters for their S-VHS tapes. That causes a sort of disconnect since while Betacam has higher color resolution than S-VHS, S-VHS had higher luma resolution (unless I am mistaken.)


The IVC-9000 VTR format DiscoVision used and then the 1-inch C-Format used until the D1 and D2 digital formats became available both had full NTSC color resolution. The digital formats had greater color resolution, D1 having the same color resolution as DVD and D2 having 2MHz. So, yes, the formats used were all capable of better or flatter color response than LaserDisc. Of course some discs were mastered from sources like U-Matic so they'd only have 40 limes of color (Angel of H.E.A.T.) Luckily, those discs are rare. Joe Kane worked hard on the LaserDisc format with Disctronics and heavily with WEA to enable LaserDisc to have 440 lines of resolution and greater color resolution plus handle 100% saturated color bars, so it could carry the extended resolution of the D1 digital format. Luckily Yves Faroudja came to the rescue with Super NTSC.

Betacam was upgraded several times giving it greater resolution than SVHS, but more importantly, SVHS had too much bandwidth for its noise level, leading to a noisy picture, so even standard Betacam will look better than SVHS. And SVHS only has 30 or 40 lines of color where Betacam always had full color in component format as did the RCA Recam format that was based on VHS and later modified to the M II format by Panasonic.
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 Post subject: Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
PostPosted: 25 May 2012, 23:05 
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Well, I've done a lot of testing with various comb filters, and I've come to the conclusion that the best one that I have on hand is the Faroudja NRS. Here is how it performs on the Snell & Wilcox 2 test pattern from Chapter 15 of the Video Essentials LD:

Image

TLK :cool:
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 Post subject: Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
PostPosted: 26 May 2012, 00:17 
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The lack of response at the 400 line square is shocking... And from the chroma bars, it looks lie there's about 60 or so lines of color. The lack of cross color on the zone plate is excellent though. Faroudja products always have had low chroma resolution because they use his color bandwidth expansion technique which makes it look like more color resolution than it really is. Like in Faroudja equipped DVD players the vertical chroma resolution is only a single field of 120 lines instead of the full 240 lines DVD is capable of.
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