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 Post subject: Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
PostPosted: 20 Feb 2013, 17:44 
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elahrairrah wrote:
I don't think AVS has the Snell & Wilcox test plate. I have it at home and I'll pop it in to see, but going by these equipment reviews that mention both AVS and VE, they only refer to VE when it comes to the S&WTP:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_4 ... ja100.html

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_6 ... iscan.html


AVS does not have it.
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 Post subject: Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
PostPosted: 20 Feb 2013, 19:24 
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well, that's one less thing I have to do when I get home now!
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 Post subject: Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
PostPosted: 21 Feb 2013, 03:06 
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Yeah, as I said I am trying to get by with just AVS and DVE -- since I am not trying to test an LD player's Svideo out or AC3.
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 Post subject: Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
PostPosted: 21 Feb 2013, 04:45 
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Can anyone tell me if there is a good comb filter in the Panasonic DMR-E60? I have one, and have my player hooked up to it to record discs, but I don't use it for pass through at the moment. Is it worth tinkering with? Also, if I do use it as a comb filter, should I output from the DMR to my TV from the Composite, S-Video or Component?
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 Post subject: Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
PostPosted: 21 Feb 2013, 22:47 
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philburque46 wrote:
Can anyone tell me if there is a good comb filter in the Panasonic DMR-E60? I have one, and have my player hooked up to it to record discs, but I don't use it for pass through at the moment. Is it worth tinkering with? Also, if I do use it as a comb filter, should I output from the DMR to my TV from the Composite, S-Video or Component?

I'm not sure if it does, or not, but do you have a Video Essentials LD to test it with?

Also, WHY would you output from the DMR with composite? You want to separate Y/C just to recombine them? :wtf: Either s-video or component.

TLK :cool:
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 Post subject: Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
PostPosted: 22 Feb 2013, 00:24 
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lizardkingjr wrote:
philburque46 wrote:
Can anyone tell me if there is a good comb filter in the Panasonic DMR-E60? I have one, and have my player hooked up to it to record discs, but I don't use it for pass through at the moment. Is it worth tinkering with? Also, if I do use it as a comb filter, should I output from the DMR to my TV from the Composite, S-Video or Component?

I'm not sure if it does, or not, but do you have a Video Essentials LD to test it with?

Also, WHY would you output from the DMR with composite? You want to separate Y/C just to recombine them? :wtf: Either s-video or component.

TLK :cool:


As of right now I actually do not own a copy of Video Essentials, I haven't seen one with decent shipping to Canada pop up lately, but I am looking.

I figured I wouldn't want to output through Composite after the comb filter, I just wasn't sure, and figured I'd ask. I currently output through Component, but wasn't sure if that was the best choice.
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 Post subject: Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
PostPosted: 22 Feb 2013, 06:46 
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I believe the choice of S-Video vs. YPbPr depends on which of your devices separates the color information better (just like the choice of comb filters in the first place).
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 Post subject: Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
PostPosted: 22 Feb 2013, 09:24 
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I wanted to test my Panasonic DMR-ES10's comb filter in the most "pure" way, so I fed it the composite output of my Panasonic DVD-S29 playing Digital Video Essentials. I then took the s-video output of my Panasonic DMR-ES10 and fed it to my Hauppauge USB-Live2 capture card. Everything was reverted to default/factory settings prior to the capture. Here are the results:

Still
Image

Moving
Image

Download a 31-frame-long sample here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/fbt23kkwslnxz ... Sample.avi

The sample is losslessly-compressed with the Lagarith codec and is set to play at 1fps. It's ~5.8MB.

Enjoy!
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 Post subject: Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
PostPosted: 22 Feb 2013, 14:36 
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msgohan wrote:
I believe the choice of S-Video vs. YPbPr depends on which of your devices separates the color information better (just like the choice of comb filters in the first place).


In a DVD recorder they always get split to component and component has no bandwidth restrictions on its outputs, unlike S-Video. There is only one demodulation of the chroma after the S-Video input or the composite inputs trip through the comb filter, so again, component is always the choice when available.
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 Post subject: Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
PostPosted: 22 Feb 2013, 14:39 
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acuozzo wrote:
I wanted to test my Panasonic DMR-ES10's comb filter in the most "pure" way, so I fed it the composite output of my Panasonic DVD-S29 playing Digital Video Essentials. I then took the s-video output of my Panasonic DMR-ES10 and fed it to my Hauppauge USB-Live2 capture card. Everything was reverted to default/factory settings prior to the capture. Here are the results:

Still
Image

Moving
Image

Download a 31-frame-long sample here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/fbt23kkwslnxz ... Sample.avi

The sample is losslessly-compressed with the Lagarith codec and is set to play at 1fps. It's ~5.8MB.

Enjoy!


Great 3D performance!
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 Post subject: Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
PostPosted: 22 Feb 2013, 16:53 
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disclord wrote:
Great 3D performance!

Thanks, Ty!
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 Post subject: Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
PostPosted: 22 Feb 2013, 18:50 
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disclord wrote:
msgohan wrote:
I believe the choice of S-Video vs. YPbPr depends on which of your devices separates the color information better (just like the choice of comb filters in the first place).


In a DVD recorder they always get split to component and component has no bandwidth restrictions on its outputs, unlike S-Video. There is only one demodulation of the chroma after the S-Video input or the composite inputs trip through the comb filter, so again, component is always the choice when available.


Thanks for the info. I will check this out with DVE and the DMR-E10 and post screenshots when I can.

@acuozzo If you said the first frame there was a still from the actual VOB file, I would have believed you.

About VE vs DVE again: which will have the better chroma? Analog, or digital 4:2:0?
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 Post subject: Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
PostPosted: 22 Feb 2013, 20:01 
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msgohan wrote:
disclord wrote:
msgohan wrote:
I believe the choice of S-Video vs. YPbPr depends on which of your devices separates the color information better (just like the choice of comb filters in the first place).


In a DVD recorder they always get split to component and component has no bandwidth restrictions on its outputs, unlike S-Video. There is only one demodulation of the chroma after the S-Video input or the composite inputs trip through the comb filter, so again, component is always the choice when available.


Thanks for the info. I will check this out with DVE and the DMR-E10 and post screenshots when I can.

@acuozzo If you said the first frame there was a still from the actual VOB file, I would have believed you.

About VE vs DVE again: which will have the better chroma? Analog, or digital 4:2:0?


Digital 4:2:0 and 4:2:2 have far better chroma than composite NTSC in all aspects except vertical chroma resolution - vertical chroma resolution in composite NTSC is 480 lines but cut in half or less if passed through any kind of comb filter except 3D - and then it will be 480 only when there is no motion. But, there's nothing you can do about it so it's nothing to worry about - we are so insensitive to chroma that you won't see a difference between 480 vertical lines of chroma and 240- horizontal chroma resolution is what matters in comb filters. And 4:2:0 and 4:2:2 don't apply to LaserDisc's since they are analog - no 4:2:0 source was ever used to make an LD.

Now, the difference between AVS and DVE is that DVE has specific patterns for testing chroma res and comb filters, AVS does not. The amount of chroma noise a disc has depends on its pressing quality - some AVS discs were noisy since the disc was pressed much earlier than DVE. My Disctronics pressing of AVS has quite noisy chroma, but Pioneer's pressing was better - DVE was made when disc quality had improved immensely. Still, both discs are good but DVE has the more useful patterns and AVS is just more interesting to watch.
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 Post subject: Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
PostPosted: 22 Feb 2013, 20:03 
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disclord: I agree, but it's usually better to capture in 4:2:2 if possible.

I chose DVE over VE because I wanted the most pure noise-free signal possible for testing.
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 Post subject: Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
PostPosted: 22 Feb 2013, 20:07 
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msgohan wrote:
@acuozzo If you said the first frame there was a still from the actual VOB file, I would have believed you.

It's amazing, isn't it?!

You can tell it's not the original MPEG-2 stream from the big black 10-pixel-wide border on the righthand-side of the image, as the Panasonic DMR-ES10 doesn't sample the entire signal.

Interestingly, the Panasonic LX-900U does something similar.

Oh, Panasonic. I love you.

--

Off-topic: Almost all of my equipment is Panasonic-brand!

VHS Player: Panasonic AG-1980
LD Player: Panasonic LX-900
DVD Player: Panasonic DVD-S29
DVD Recorder/Comb Filter: Panasonic DMR-ES10

Now I just need to find a nice Panasonic advertisement for my wall!
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 Post subject: Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
PostPosted: 22 Feb 2013, 21:35 
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acuozzo wrote:
disclord: I agree, but it's usually better to capture in 4:2:2 if possible.

I chose DVE over VE because I wanted the most pure noise-free signal possible for testing.


Oh, I totally agree - capturing 4:2:2 is always best - 4:4:4 would be the ultimate, which some of Sony's HDCAM formats do. True Constant Luminance processing would be good for all digital formats because it would make low color resolution look like higher resolution.

Off topic.... I got the discs - the Sony IDTV "Little Dreamers" disc from 1988, and pressed by Sony Japan has the absolute best PQ I have EVER seen from an LD. For those who dont know what I'm talking about, it's a demo disc for Sony's first progressive scan TV, which they introduced in 1988 and called Digital Trinitron - it was a failure due to the deinterlacing and digital comb filtering not being quite advanced enough, but the demo disc is amazing, if weird in that Japanese way. It was shot in the analog Sony HDVS Hi-Vision system and down-converted to LaserDisc and WOW. It looks like an amazing DVD.
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 Post subject: Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
PostPosted: 22 Feb 2013, 21:41 
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acuozzo wrote:
msgohan wrote:
@acuozzo If you said the first frame there was a still from the actual VOB file, I would have believed you.

It's amazing, isn't it?!

You can tell it's not the original MPEG-2 stream from the big black 10-pixel-wide border on the righthand-side of the image, as the Panasonic DMR-ES10 doesn't sample the entire signal.

Interestingly, the Panasonic LX-900U does something similar.

Oh, Panasonic. I love you.

--

Off-topic: Almost all of my equipment is Panasonic-brand!

VHS Player: Panasonic AG-1980
LD Player: Panasonic LX-900
DVD Player: Panasonic DVD-S29
DVD Recorder/Comb Filter: Panasonic DMR-ES10

Now I just need to find a nice Panasonic advertisement for my wall!


I still wonder how MSB got rid of the missing image on the right side of the pic on the Runco... All their processing seems to come AFTER the digital Panasonic processing. Wish I was an E.E. and could figure it out. BTW, did you see that there are two Runco LJR-II's on eBay? One is the DA model with the digital converter built in, like mine, the other is the studio without the DA. It appears neither has a remote.
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 Post subject: Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
PostPosted: 22 Feb 2013, 22:41 
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disclord wrote:
Off topic.... I got the discs - the Sony IDTV "Little Dreamers" disc from 1988, and pressed by Sony Japan has the absolute best PQ I have EVER seen from an LD. For those who dont know what I'm talking about, it's a demo disc for Sony's first progressive scan TV, which they introduced in 1988 and called Digital Trinitron - it was a failure due to the deinterlacing and digital comb filtering not being quite advanced enough, but the demo disc is amazing, if weird in that Japanese way. It was shot in the analog Sony HDVS Hi-Vision system and down-converted to LaserDisc and WOW. It looks like an amazing DVD.

Ha, that's awesome! Enjoy!
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 Post subject: Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
PostPosted: 22 Feb 2013, 22:45 
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disclord wrote:
I still wonder how MSB got rid of the missing image on the right side of the pic on the Runco... All their processing seems to come AFTER the digital Panasonic processing. Wish I was an E.E. and could figure it out.

At this point, I'm just going to guess that they used magic.
disclord wrote:
BTW, did you see that there are two Runco LJR-II's on eBay? One is the DA model with the digital converter built in, like mine, the other is the studio without the DA. It appears neither has a remote.

No, but that's awesome! I wish I had $1,000.00 to spare! :-p
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 Post subject: Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
PostPosted: 27 Feb 2013, 22:07 
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elahrairrah: Are you able to get simultaneous component and s-video output from your DMR-ES25?
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