LaserDisc Database :: View topic - Best Lumagen 21x4 alternative

I’d recomend a new Bravia for like $1000. Plug your LD player straight into it.

I’ve never seen one of these magic boxes in action but I have seriously hard time buying that they are worth that much bread. Ten years ago, sure, but the SD stages on TVs being sold now are often pretty good.

We didn’t need a box in the 90s. Then all the TVs became monitors with horrible SD video circuitry. IMHO, with some new TVs you can go back to using nothing, such as the 2017 4K Bravia line.

I’ve never seen one of these magic machines in action but I also haven’t heard from anyone who has hooked one to a 2017 Bravia and can tell me first hand that the box was worth it so until we do I’m going with the “you’re nuts” theory on $4000 upscalers for LD.

I also watch mostly LDs.

That is the problem, those of us with "magic boxes" HAVE seen them vs modern TVs and KNOW they are worth the money. And a Lumagen isn't just an "upscaler for LD", it is the central hub which powers my (2) basement projectors, handles all of my LD, DVD, Blu Ray processing, color correction (3d lut calibration), enhancement (Darbee) and scaling to 1080p or 2160p (depending on the projector). While they certainly aren't for everyone it's a bit unfair for someone who has never seen one in action to say that we are "nuts".

And when it's time for the next TV-upgrade composite or s-video inputs might not be available.

You will always have Coax or Antenna and that will run anything your heart desires...
Cable television will always have that, and antenna too.
The Cable companies are cheap and will never change that cable.

rein-o wrote:

That's from a USA point of view I suppose.

Soon it will be a HDMI-only world in some countries.

Example in France: https://www.samsung.com/fr/tvs/the-frame-ls03/UE65LS03NAUXXC/

HDMI = 4
USB = 3
Component (Y/Pb/Pr) = None
Composite (AV) = None
Ethernet (LAN) = Yes
Optical sound output = 1
Antenna : Terrestrial/Cable/Satellite = 1/1 (shared with Terrestrial)/1
Ex-Link (RS-232C) = 1
Wi-Fi = Yes

The analog path is dying I think.

Julien

We didn’t need a box in the 90s.

anyway, re: the CII, please do not think that I didn't like it or anything
infact I found it amazing, but that issue of the inability to lock to film mode from an interlaced source it's no small thing

Author:	kassan [ 06 Nov 2018, 17:18 ]
Post subject:	Best Lumagen 21x4 alternative
hey guys so we know those are now gone, even at curtpalme I couldn't have afforded it anyway, or maybe I couldn't justify the price tag I don't watch TV at all, my DVD/BD collection is quite limited, LDs are my main thing but I just didn't want to spend nearly 3 grands for a marvelous piece of electronics merely to use a single analog input on it that said what do you think it's the best alternative? excluding the Crystalio II and the DVDO products the former (I used to own it, then sold it) doesn't force film mode, the latter I never liked it, way too aggressive scaling I was thinking to get a Pioneer DVR player and use its comb filter then output the 480i signal into an older Lumagen, such as the XD or XE will I lose much in terms of PQ?

Author:	rein-o [ 19 Nov 2018, 21:58 ]
Post subject:	Re: Best Lumagen 21x4 alternative
Unknown how to help with this one. From what I've read that PBiancardi like the Crystalio II, others love the lumagen but since that's out of most of our price ranges then I guess a DVD recorder but I doubt it will get you that much more that what you already have. How bad is the image you have now that needs to be upgraded that much more?? I feel that these lesser priced units are hit and miss, one needs to just get them test them out and move them back out to try others that may work for you.

Author:	gypsy [ 20 Nov 2018, 01:59 ]
Post subject:	Re: Best Lumagen 21x4 alternative
There really isn't a good answer for this unfortunately. Everything really good is well known at this point and lots of the good old gear is impossible to find for purchase. I'd love to get an Algolith Mosquito, but I doubt I ever will. I've always been disappointed when I've tried a processor that wasn't from Lumagen or DVDO with a couple caveats. I've never tried the Crystalio II, I'm sure pretty sure it's good though, based on what everyone says. And the IA-100 does what I want it to, rotates shmups and works well with projectors. I think I just need to fix something on mine, because there is an issue now that didn't used to be there before with the DVI output. So yeah, if you think DVDO's scaling is bad, I can't imagine liking the random crappy cheapo scalers. As far as DVRs, I'm pleased with one I got, it's way better than the Lumagen I have that I have been too lazy to calibrate. But I think it's worse than every DVDO I have.

Author:	pbiancardi [ 20 Nov 2018, 02:41 ]
Post subject:	Re: Best Lumagen 21x4 alternative
It's so difficult to answer this because people don't seem to be able to put into words what exactly they want to accomplish. Some of us have tried lots of different just for the hell of it, I can make some recommendations if you just feel like messing around but I don't feel there is a great answer to "I want a better picture" (if that is what you are saying). There is a Faroudja DVP-1010 on eBay right now that is $100 or so, that would give good results but not sure how it would compare to whatever you are doing now. The C2 and the Lumagen are kind of big jumps above most else so when you ask for what's next in line, the answer is very cluttered.

Author:	kassan [ 20 Nov 2018, 03:14 ]
Post subject:	Re: Best Lumagen 21x4 alternative
thanks a LOT everybody for your answers I should have probably been more clear I agree sometimes, on most forums, newcomers are not really sure of they want and ask too vague questions -LD player is a Pioneer X1 -as I said I simply ruled out the CII and DVDO for reasons stated above same goes for the older Lumagen HDQ and its unsolved chroma crawl problem -I would really really like to get a 2124/2144 but they are out of my price range -This bit I forgot to mention, sorry: I just couldn't care less what it would look on a flat screen I'm planning to get a CRT projector, possibly a Sony G70 and that's my only concern The G70 "sweet spot" (I suppose you all know what that means, when it comes to CRT pjt) is 960p, anything higher would bee too soft, anything lower and you will see scanlines. -95% of what I see is either Anime or old Hong Kong movies that's why I was thinking X1--->DVDR-->Lumagen XD/XE/XS/Mini/2020-->CRT projector

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Best Lumagen 21x4 alternative https://forum.lddb.com/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=8104	Page 1 of 3

Author:	mimylovesjapan [ 20 Nov 2018, 03:59 ]
Post subject:	Re: Best Lumagen 21x4 alternative
I don't understand why you're not satisfied with CII for anime. for anime, in VXP mode (don't need to force film mode for anime) with NR in medium, I couldn't see difference between lumagen and CII.

Author:	pbiancardi [ 20 Nov 2018, 04:11 ]
Post subject:	Re: Best Lumagen 21x4 alternative
I don't know what to say if you didn't like the C2, it sounds like it would fit you perfectly and they are very versatile with projector resolutions (more than Lumagen). Did you try both Gennum and Faroudja deinterlacing? They are two very different looking options (especially if you use Faroudja True Life). For me personally if you don't like what C2 does for LD I don't see how you will ever be satisfied with anything.

Author:	mimylovesjapan [ 20 Nov 2018, 04:37 ]
Post subject:	Re: Best Lumagen 21x4 alternative
I agree. CII is clearly projector oriented. (thanks to the strong RGBHV out) For projector as the G70, and with mainly anime watch, you can't do better...

Author:	signofzeta [ 20 Nov 2018, 05:27 ]
Post subject:	Re: Best Lumagen 21x4 alternative
I’d recomend a new Bravia for like $1000. Plug your LD player straight into it. I’ve never seen one of these magic boxes in action but I have seriously hard time buying that they are worth that much bread. Ten years ago, sure, but the SD stages on TVs being sold now are often pretty good. We didn’t need a box in the 90s. Then all the TVs became monitors with horrible SD video circuitry. IMHO, with some new TVs you can go back to using nothing, such as the 2017 4K Bravia line. I’ve never seen one of these magic machines in action but I also haven’t heard from anyone who has hooked one to a 2017 Bravia and can tell me first hand that the box was worth it so until we do I’m going with the “you’re nuts” theory on $4000 upscalers for LD. I also watch mostly LDs.

Author:	pbiancardi [ 20 Nov 2018, 11:33 ]
Post subject:	Re: Best Lumagen 21x4 alternative
signofzeta wrote: I’d recomend a new Bravia for like $1000. Plug your LD player straight into it. I’ve never seen one of these magic boxes in action but I have seriously hard time buying that they are worth that much bread. Ten years ago, sure, but the SD stages on TVs being sold now are often pretty good. We didn’t need a box in the 90s. Then all the TVs became monitors with horrible SD video circuitry. IMHO, with some new TVs you can go back to using nothing, such as the 2017 4K Bravia line. I’ve never seen one of these magic machines in action but I also haven’t heard from anyone who has hooked one to a 2017 Bravia and can tell me first hand that the box was worth it so until we do I’m going with the “you’re nuts” theory on $4000 upscalers for LD. I also watch mostly LDs. That is the problem, those of us with "magic boxes" HAVE seen them vs modern TVs and KNOW they are worth the money. And a Lumagen isn't just an "upscaler for LD", it is the central hub which powers my (2) basement projectors, handles all of my LD, DVD, Blu Ray processing, color correction (3d lut calibration), enhancement (Darbee) and scaling to 1080p or 2160p (depending on the projector). While they certainly aren't for everyone it's a bit unfair for someone who has never seen one in action to say that we are "nuts".

Author:	sethp3d [ 20 Nov 2018, 13:41 ]
Post subject:	Re: Best Lumagen 21x4 alternative
pbiancardi wrote: That is the problem, those of us with "magic boxes" HAVE seen them vs modern TVs and KNOW they are worth the money. And a Lumagen isn't just an "upscaler for LD", it is the central hub which powers my (2) basement projectors, handles all of my LD, DVD, Blu Ray processing, color correction (3d lut calibration), enhancement (Darbee) and scaling to 1080p or 2160p (depending on the projector). While they certainly aren't for everyone it's a bit unfair for someone who has never seen one in action to say that we are "nuts". And when it's time for the next TV-upgrade composite or s-video inputs might not be available.

Author:	gypsy [ 20 Nov 2018, 14:46 ]
Post subject:	Re: Best Lumagen 21x4 alternative
pbiancardi wrote: That is the problem, those of us with "magic boxes" HAVE seen them vs modern TVs and KNOW they are worth the money. And a Lumagen isn't just an "upscaler for LD", it is the central hub which powers my (2) basement projectors, handles all of my LD, DVD, Blu Ray processing, color correction (3d lut calibration), enhancement (Darbee) and scaling to 1080p or 2160p (depending on the projector). While they certainly aren't for everyone it's a bit unfair for someone who has never seen one in action to say that we are "nuts". I run almost everything through my DVDO Duo in my main set-up. From what I've seen of the scaling of Lumagen, I'd love one of these newer units but I'm not buying into 4k yet.

Author:	rein-o [ 20 Nov 2018, 15:29 ]
Post subject:	Re: Best Lumagen 21x4 alternative
Well to be fair you are nuts to spend 3K on a unit to watch an LD. But then again that's your deal and if it makes you happy who cares. sethp3d wrote: And when it's time for the next TV-upgrade composite or s-video inputs might not be available. You will always have Coax or Antenna and that will run anything your heart desires... Cable television will always have that, and antenna too. The Cable companies are cheap and will never change that cable.

Author:	admin [ 20 Nov 2018, 15:45 ]
Post subject:	Re: Best Lumagen 21x4 alternative
rein-o wrote: You will always have Coax or Antenna and that will run anything your heart desires... Cable television will always have that, and antenna too. The Cable companies are cheap and will never change that cable. That's from a USA point of view I suppose. Soon it will be a HDMI-only world in some countries. Example in France: https://www.samsung.com/fr/tvs/the-frame-ls03/UE65LS03NAUXXC/ HDMI = 4 USB = 3 Component (Y/Pb/Pr) = None Composite (AV) = None Ethernet (LAN) = Yes Optical sound output = 1 Antenna : Terrestrial/Cable/Satellite = 1/1 (shared with Terrestrial)/1 Ex-Link (RS-232C) = 1 Wi-Fi = Yes The analog path is dying I think. Julien

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Author:	sethp3d [ 20 Nov 2018, 16:19 ]
Post subject:	Re: Best Lumagen 21x4 alternative
admin wrote: rein-o wrote: You will always have Coax or Antenna and that will run anything your heart desires... Cable television will always have that, and antenna too. The Cable companies are cheap and will never change that cable. That's from a USA point of view I suppose. Soon it will be a HDMI-only world in some countries. Example in France: https://www.samsung.com/fr/tvs/the-frame-ls03/UE65LS03NAUXXC/ HDMI = 4 USB = 3 Component (Y/Pb/Pr) = None Composite (AV) = None Ethernet (LAN) = Yes Optical sound output = 1 Antenna : Terrestrial/Cable/Satellite = 1/1 (shared with Terrestrial)/1 Ex-Link (RS-232C) = 1 Wi-Fi = Yes The analog path is dying I think. Julien Yep, composite, s-video etc is gone in tv's over here in Europe. I helped some guy on facebook how to hook up his VHS to his new TV. he had to use the antenna output on the VHS-player.

Author:	rein-o [ 20 Nov 2018, 18:40 ]
Post subject:	Re: Best Lumagen 21x4 alternative
Yeah, the cable companies use the coax antenna connector but then you need that cable box with that coax, but could run HDMI from the cable box to your set. But still need that basic connector somewhere. I guess they could figure out how to connect antennas for OTA into your HDMI?

Author:	kassan [ 21 Nov 2018, 05:50 ]
Post subject:	Re: Best Lumagen 21x4 alternative
I can't thank you enough for all your help and information this little community truly is amazing anyway, re: the CII, please do not think that I didn't like it or anything infact I found it amazing, but that issue of the inability to lock to film mode from an interlaced source it's no small thing that's why I sold it to get a Lumagen (not without some regret) also I will use a HDMI Moome card with the projector so I couldn't use the analog outputs anyway signofzeta wrote: We didn’t need a box in the 90s. well, while I agree in spirit with your post, I have to say in the 90s we all had 21" TVs, 25" max on screens that small, LDs always looked good but with, say, a 100" screen then all imperfections will come out so you need to take care of it and a good scaler is pretty much the only way to accomplish that

Author:	mimylovesjapan [ 21 Nov 2018, 07:58 ]
Post subject:	Re: Best Lumagen 21x4 alternative
- for a 960p projector, you don't need to get a HDMI board, isn't ? Keep your money for the upscaler. - you can always buy it again if you regret it. - you can have film mode is you desactivate VXP mode. After desactivate VXP, the quality is near a DVDO edge, but a little bit better in my experience. The only issue then is the green taint of the screen. you cna resolve it by increase reds.

Author:	pbiancardi [ 21 Nov 2018, 14:23 ]
Post subject:	Re: Best Lumagen 21x4 alternative
kassan wrote: anyway, re: the CII, please do not think that I didn't like it or anything infact I found it amazing, but that issue of the inability to lock to film mode from an interlaced source it's no small thing I am kind of lost on this one? I have never had any issue with C2 film mode? You realize you can custom set the film bias right?

Author:	substance [ 21 Nov 2018, 15:10 ]
Post subject:	Re: Best Lumagen 21x4 alternative
There is a bug in the gennum vxp gf9450 chip that CII uses. Even in the forced film mode, it will switch to video when it thinks the source is video. Bad edits will causes this although the source is film. This is the reason CII offers Faroudja fli2312 chip. Faroudja chips remains in film mode ignoring flags and cadence. This is a hardware problem on the gf9450 chip which later they fixed in the next version gf9452 which Lumagen units have. Gf9452 also offers better cadence detection and better noise reduction (mosquito nr). Lumagen was still not pleased with the film mode and they wrote their own code in the fpga. When you switch to film mode, it bypasses gennum vxp and uses the lumagen algorithm for locked film mode. Faroudja chip on the CII is very good in forced film mode however has a color shift bug. I made separate calibration to overcome this.