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 Post subject: Question thread for help for new 2144 owner
PostPosted: 18 Apr 2018, 03:50 
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Hi everyone,
Got my 2144 in a few days ago. Had a few hitches with cabling problems but finally got it running last night.

I have some issues/questions and will probably have more as I continue to work with the 2144, so if I could get some input, that would be awesome!

I'll start with just a few. I was using a Lumagen VisionHDQ + Algolith Mosquito HD before this, so most of my descriptions will be in comparison to that setup.

1) The boost in resolution and better deinterlacing are amazing, but I am detecting a comparative lack of detail. Faces look like a photoshop "smear" effect is applied. You see less gritty pores and more smoothed shades, almost like people are made out of latex (similar to if the Mosquito noise reduction were turned up too high). Shutting off Darbee somewhat fixed this but not 100% by any means.

2) I would get rock-solid freeze-frames on my earlier setup but the 2144 freeze-frames are unstable. They shake, as if it is interpreting the two fields in different ways and causing a flickering back and forth movement. Similarly, while playing, particularly on composite, dark backgrounds sometimes tend to kind of "judder" back and forth between two different interpretations of the material.

3) I saw something about merged audio in the manual. Can I input a digital stereo track and analog commentary track and have them both come out the 2144 mixed on a single output port?

4) Is there no contrast setting? Do I instead use the Black and White levels with a PLUGE?
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 Post subject: Re: Question thread for help for new 2144 owner
PostPosted: 18 Apr 2018, 04:40 
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ruinatokyo wrote:
3) I saw something about merged audio in the manual. Can I input a digital stereo track and analog commentary track and have them both come out the 2144 mixed on a single output port?


I can answer for that one since that's precisely the re-cabling I did last night: Radiance and audio

Quote:
  • LD Player analog audio to In1 L/R
  • LD Player digital audio to TOSlink In1


Use Input 12 for Composite video and set 12A Audio Input to "TOS", 12B to "Analog 1".

Analog soundtrack will be converted to digital PCM, output in 96Khz to my A/V Amp over coax.

You can't however MIX 2 audio inputs, just choose A or B from the remote.

Julien
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 Post subject: Re: Question thread for help for new 2144 owner
PostPosted: 18 Apr 2018, 06:21 
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Thanks.

I answered #4 myself. From the manual: "To set the input’s black-level (also referred to as brightness) and white-level (also referred to as contrast) using the Lumagen controls, use a test pattern generator or select a PLUGE pattern."
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 Post subject: Re: Question thread for help for new 2144 owner
PostPosted: 19 Apr 2018, 01:14 
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And one more question for now.

Every time I shut the 2144 down, it loses HDMI sync or whatever you call it, and I can only get it to display again by shutting my TV off for 15 seconds and turning it back on.

Is there a setting to force mode/handshake or whatever to avoid this?
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 Post subject: Re: Question thread for help for new 2144 owner
PostPosted: 19 Apr 2018, 03:01 
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ruinatokyo wrote:
Every time I shut the 2144 down, it loses HDMI sync or whatever you call it, and I can only get it to display again by shutting my TV off for 15 seconds and turning it back on.


I never had that problem on my display.

What brand/model is it?

Julien
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 Post subject: Re: Question thread for help for new 2144 owner
PostPosted: 19 Apr 2018, 03:18 
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It's happening with my yamaha ysp-4400 avr and the sony bravia A1E oled. But I mean actually powering the 2144 off, not putting it in standby mode.

On that note, I wonder what the fan settings should be for the 2144. There is no "Auto" and no indication of which to use for which situation in the manual.
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 Post subject: Re: Question thread for help for new 2144 owner
PostPosted: 20 Apr 2018, 05:24 
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ruinatokyo wrote:
On that note, I wonder what the fan settings should be for the 2144. There is no "Auto" and no indication of which to use for which situation in the manual.


Even in a hot environment (Singapore...) I've never been able to actually hear the fan.
Just left the default setting untouched, no problem for me.

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 Post subject: Re: Question thread for help for new 2144 owner
PostPosted: 21 Apr 2018, 13:08 
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Most of my issues still stand to lesser or greater degree, but to do an FYI here.

I had strange issues with the 2144, including weird digital noise (colored lines and rectangles) when selecting certain menu options.

Lumagen told me it might be a corrupted firmware and to do a forced firmware upgrade in the “Boot Mode Update” as described in the Tech Tip that comes with each update and then to do a Factory Reset.

Choosing Factory Reset from the menu resulted in a black screen, so I did the direct command of MENU 0999 and all of the weird issues were solved.

Since then, I have also worried about heat, so I am keeping the fan on the default setting rather than LOW, and getting used to the sound of it.

I guess these are the trials and tribulations of buying one used, but there it is.
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 Post subject: Re: Question thread for help for new 2144 owner
PostPosted: 22 Apr 2018, 07:28 
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Glad to hear you're getting things sorted. It's a good thing Lumagen are good with support.
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 Post subject: Re: Question thread for help for new 2144 owner
PostPosted: 24 Apr 2018, 14:57 
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hey
thanks a lot for sharing all this

I'll soon get a CRT pjt and was pondering to get a 21xx Luma scaler
however this got me worried
as I would like my output as analog-looking as possible
ruinatokyo wrote:
I am detecting a comparative lack of detail. Faces look like a photoshop "smear" effect is applied. You see less gritty pores and more smoothed shades, almost like people are made out of latex (similar to if the Mosquito noise reduction were turned up too high). Shutting off Darbee somewhat fixed this but not 100% by any means.

any news in this regard?

you seem to know what you're doing so my little contribution would probably make you laugh :lol:

however I do remember when the first batch of Radiance were released and NR was first added, many got lost by the zillions of different settings concerning NR (temporal and special), filters, sharpness and all
and would have liked a simple ON/OFF switch.
Did you go through and disabled all of them?

anyway I hope you'll get everything sorted ;)
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 Post subject: Re: Question thread for help for new 2144 owner
PostPosted: 26 Apr 2018, 01:16 
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kassan,
Things are getting better and better. I still have to buy a calibration disc to fix color/noise issues, but tweaking the settings is resulting in a better image day by day. It already far surpasses my HDQ/Mosquito for picture quality on most metrics. Never had LD looking better!

There is a swamp of settings, but I am used to that with the HDQ/Mosquito. But like with those, I tend to slowly dial in my favorite settings over time. Last night, I had to drop the 2D/3D noise reduction a bit when I was seeing trails of 3 faces when the person moved really fast. It also very slightly improved detail (which temporal noise reduction is apt to remove if on too high).

There's really no telltale "digital" signs to the picture unless you turn all settings on high or run the Darbee enhancer.
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 Post subject: Re: Question thread for help for new 2144 owner
PostPosted: 29 Apr 2018, 00:56 
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thanks for that
you know I'm a bit sorry that you started this thread looking for advice, then I kinda hijacked it

anyway I'm really, really glad things are getting better
I guess you can see those pores again and that latex-effect is gone?
for one moment I was almost happy that the HDQ was still better than the Radiance (Laserdisc-wise), as that can be had nowadays for a s low as $100-150
now I'll have to hunt again for a 21xx
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 Post subject: Re: Question thread for help for new 2144 owner
PostPosted: 01 May 2018, 08:42 
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No problem! Maybe this can help others that go 2144 for laserdisc!

I think I was used to the roughness of the HDQ. How can I put it...

At 4k, things are very very clear and detailed in tight up-close shots, so clear that you get kind of tricked that this is HD material, but as soon as the figures on-screen become small in wider shots, the LD doesn't have the detail, so the smaller figures have extremely less detail and the switch kind of screws with my mind: one shot looks like crystal clear 4k of a close-up face, but the next shot, people in the middle or background have blurred unrecognizable faces.

Whereas with the HDQ, going from LD resolution to 1080p is big but not that big, so there is a more evenness of quality. IMO You don't really notice the negatives in terms of detail as much on the HDQ, but it is lesser quality overall than 2144. Lesser but somehow it doesn't have the range from beautiful to featureless latex that makes it stand out.

But the deinterlacer, resolution and noise reduction on the 2144 do blow the HDQ away. Along with a few other things I'm forgetting.
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 Post subject: Re: Question thread for help for new 2144 owner
PostPosted: 31 May 2018, 10:02 
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HDMI handshake loss was being caused by turning the 2144 on before turning on the TV/AVR and setting the TV/AVR to the input for the 2144. Problem solved.
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 Post subject: Re: Question thread for help for new 2144 owner
PostPosted: 01 Jun 2018, 02:32 
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Curious if you've tried the Mosquito with the Lumagen? Myself I go LD Player to 2144 then 1080i to Mosquito then to Oppo UDP 203 then 1080p to display.

I find the Mosquito NR to be much better than 2144 just curious if others find same ??
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 Post subject: Re: Question thread for help for new 2144 owner
PostPosted: 01 Jun 2018, 03:42 
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pbiancardi wrote:
Curious if you've tried the Mosquito with the Lumagen?


Just for my information, the Canadian company behind the Mosquito devices (Algolith) was acquired by Sensio Dec. 2010 and then went bankrupt in April 2016 and you can only find 2nd hand devices in North America, right?

Mosquito was the Noise Reduction/Edge Enhancement stand-alone device (RGB and HDMI versions, specs PDF + User Manual).
Dragonfly was their Video Processor (Specs PDF).

Algolith looked like early an early DarbeeVision type of company (patents and devices)?
Will 4K kill Darbee the same way?

(Edit: substance already did a round of detailing => Internal Photos of Algolith Mosquito HDMI video enhancer.)

Julien
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 Post subject: Re: Question thread for help for new 2144 owner
PostPosted: 01 Jun 2018, 10:43 
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admin wrote:
pbiancardi wrote:
Curious if you've tried the Mosquito with the Lumagen?


Just for my information, the Canadian company behind the Mosquito devices (Algolith) was acquired by Sensio Dec. 2010 and then went bankrupt in April 2016 and you can only find 2nd hand devices in North America, right?

Mosquito was the Noise Reduction/Edge Enhancement stand-alone device (RGB and HDMI versions, specs PDF + User Manual).
Dragonfly was their Video Processor (Specs PDF).

Algolith looked like early an early DarbeeVision type of company (patents and devices)?
Will 4K kill Darbee the same way?

(Edit: substance already did a round of detailing => Internal Photos of Algolith Mosquito HDMI video enhancer.)

Julien



I think substance has 2x Lumagen with Mosquito between them, if OP has one sitting there I suggest trying it after the 2144 and before another HDMI scaling device.
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 Post subject: Re: Question thread for help for new 2144 owner
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2018, 05:00 
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I have 2x Lumagens (Down from 3) and the Algolith Mosquito HDMI. The Mosquito has the best video noise reduction for SD video(digital and analog) by far.

It has the following registers available to the user

2D (Spatial) 0-12 (processing on static areas, 0 is no processing, 12 is the most processing)

3D (Temporal) 0-12 (processing on areas with motion, 0 is no processing, 12 is the most processing)

DNR(digital noise reduction) or MNR( mosquito noise reduction) mode
- DNR mode is gaussian filter (blurring effect) which is more suitable to hide film grain and video noise. This mode is suitable for high bitrate digital video with grainy film source or analog video with video noise (and film grain perhaps). modest use removes video noise and does a great job of leaving the film grain intact but aggressive settings can remove film grain too. (This mode can also help with macro blocking)
-MNR mode is for compressed digital video with mosquito artifacts. These artifacts usually appear near sharp edges and light to dark transitions. Analog video is immune to this. Only to be used with DVDs or Cable/Sat Tv

Block noise 1-4 (This is for heavily compressed digital video - simply don't watch garbage video)

Enhancement 0-12 (This is similar to Darbee processing, I believe its very successful if not as good as Darbee)

Contrast enhance on or off(This applies contrast boosting, blacks are inkier whites are brighter, again similar to Darbee)

My take:

I use 2D on 3-6 but more so on 3-4. I use 3D on 0-2 but generally on 1. I use MNR for DVD and DNR for LD. I have block noise at 0, enhancement on 0 and Contrast enhance off. I am a purist, I don't artifically stretch color space or sharpen edges. If you decide to use agressive 2D settings, you can offset the softness with enhancement function. I don't use the Mosquito on HD video.

As you can tell, the mosquito is highly adjustable. All other noise reduction settings on other devices are as simple as low, mid, high or 1-5. Here you have multiple aspects of noise reduction in many increments. There is also a split mode which splits the screen into two. one side processed, the other side pass through. You can compare it's effects. Up to modest settings, the mosquito causes no detail loss what so ever. It does an amazing job of removing noise and ignoring detail.


It works best if its fed a progressive video. I have my Radiance 2144 output 480p into the mosquito and the mosquito is connected to Radiance pro 4999 which scales it to 4k60.
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 Post subject: Re: Question thread for help for new 2144 owner
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2018, 17:13 
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I'm just curious now, has anyone tried to make a LUT for the 2144 to maintain SMPTE-C within Rec.709? I know this is more or less an impossibility due to the green primary being so different, but I think it would be an interesting take on this subject. Personally I'm not using LUTs at all for my OLED or other TVs.
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 Post subject: Re: Question thread for help for new 2144 owner
PostPosted: 10 Jun 2018, 10:29 
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My experience with the Algolith Mosquito was that the Lumagen does 90% of the work then the Mosquito gives you an extra 10% on top of that.

It really cleaned up the picture and somehow magically fixed details that had been lost in the noise.

But personally I had to use very low settings on the Mosquito otherwise it had a tendency to create artificial features. The numbers seem pretty close to the ones substance mentioned.
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