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elviscaprice
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Post subject: Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project Posted: 01 Oct 2013, 03:35 |
True fan |
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Joined: 28 Apr 2010, 23:23 Posts: 389 Location: Costa Rica Has thanked: 0 time Been thanked: 0 time
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tomtastic wrote: I doubt it from the capture method. There's more than 2 audio chs, plus the fact that there's more than one side to capture. Are you going to just let it keep capturing while you get up and change sides or discs? When you stop recording that's a separate asset.
Getting it in one capture is impossible without editing on the audio side and unless you want an extra compression stage you'll need to keep the sides on separate assets. Premiere isn't needed because video editing won't be needed. If you do use it, you'll have to render every single frame before it goes to Encore. Not saying you can't, just unnecessary. Actually this method isn't hard. It's pretty straight forward, except where the audio is concerned. If you could get all audio channels in 4 separate streams in one capture, then no problem. But it doesn't look like Black Magic will do that. You can have multiple audio/video tracks that will merge upon rendering. As far as the two sides or just one whole recording is a non issue. They can easily be merged together in Premiere. Of course the whole works shall be rendered after making adjustments with any masking issues, processing, you name it. Not a problem.
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tomtastic
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Post subject: Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project Posted: 01 Oct 2013, 04:28 |
Hardcore fan |
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Joined: 27 Oct 2011, 08:51 Posts: 1089 Location: Wichita, KS United States Has thanked: 0 time Been thanked: 3 times
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Right, but as I said, it's 50/month for the whole cloud suite vs. 20 for just Encore. And using Premiere adds another video compression level. The RAW video capture that's done is fine for the final output and as long as the framing is ok and Encore accepts the codec it should work as is and unedited. If there's a problem importing it there are other (free) methods of reencoding the video aside from Premiere.
For camera recording projects, yes Final Cut Pro, Premiere are needed to do the editing of scenes, but for this, the RAW capture video is fine for the final output. In Encore you can drop the audio tracks in under the video asset, then add the chapter markers in Encore, before this the audio can be split off and I can encode them into Dolby Digital and make sure each stream is in sync with the video. Why spend 50/month when 20 will do? I think substance said he had four MUSE titles so this might be a multi month project.
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msgohan
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Post subject: Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project Posted: 01 Oct 2013, 08:13 |
Serious fan |
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Joined: 15 Jan 2013, 22:44 Posts: 136 Location: Canada Has thanked: 5 times Been thanked: 1 time
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tomtastic wrote: And using Premiere adds another video compression level. Premiere supports installed system codecs (i.e. you can export using lossless as well as uncompressed). All of the cutting and joining can also be done in free software, but certainly not as intuitively as a nice NLE timeline.
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elviscaprice
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Post subject: Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project Posted: 04 Oct 2013, 05:43 |
True fan |
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Joined: 28 Apr 2010, 23:23 Posts: 389 Location: Costa Rica Has thanked: 0 time Been thanked: 0 time
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substance wrote: 1-capture video directly into component connections of intensity shuttle in 10bit and 8bit uncompressed format(2 separate captures) with audio through analog connections of intensity shuttle(2ch 24bit capture). Curious, why the 24bit capture with an analog connection? What are you getting from the Muse audio thru the analog? substance wrote: we are NOT trying to improve the quality of MUSE(you could just buy the Blu-ray versions). The point is preserving MUSE video as it plays on a MUSE setup. so 1080p24 conversion is not needed. video noise reduction, edge enhancement etc.. also defeats purpose.
Yes, but your not going to be capturing an analog signal to analog for playback on an analog tv. Your going to transfer to digital. You are right, you aren't going to improve the quality of Muse, but you can better prepare the analog picture transferred to digital, to look better in digital format. Different animals. A little bit of processing and edge cleanup will go a long way towards a better digital presentation. I would volunteer to give it a go in Adobe Premiere but I am soon, October 19th, back on my way to Costa Rica for the winter. Wouldn't hurt for someone else to take the raw capture and see what they could do compared to your untouched final output.
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msgohan
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Post subject: Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project Posted: 26 Oct 2013, 10:18 |
Serious fan |
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Joined: 15 Jan 2013, 22:44 Posts: 136 Location: Canada Has thanked: 5 times Been thanked: 1 time
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So I just learned 1035i uses nonsquare sampling. I was wondering why it would have been 1.85507...:1 aspect ratio, but it is regular 16:9 using nonsquare samples the same way as 480i and 576i. It also uses different colorimetry than the regular Rec.709. From two editions of Charles Poynton's book. Quote: HD equipment based on 1125/60 scanning and 1920×1035 image format, with nonsquare sampling, according to SMPTE 240M, was deployed for several years. That system is obsolete. (It can now be considered as a 1035i variant of 1080i30 or 1080i29.97 having 1035 picture lines instead of 1080, nonsquare sampling, and slightly different colorimetry.) Quote: The SMPTE 240M standard for 1125/60.00/2:1 HDTV was adopted in 1988. The 1125/60 system, now called 1035i30, had 1920×1035 image structure with nonsquare sampling: Pixels were 4% closer horizontally than vertically. After several years, square sampling was introduced into the SMPTE standards, and subsequently, into ATSC standards. 1920×1035 image structure has been superseded by 1920×1080, and square sampling is now a feature of all HDTV studio standards. So if you want to get picky, your 1920x1080 capture (with 45 lines of letterboxing from 1035) will need to be horizontally squished to 1840x1080 and then pillarboxed (creating a windowbox) for proper playback on all of our HD equipment that assumes a 1080 signal uses square pixels... Or inverse-telecined and interpolated vertically. I'm not sure if there is any way to account for the slightly different colorimetry. The ColorMatrix Avisynth filter offers no option to do the conversion from SMPTE 240M and brushes it off saying "the error will be small". The coefficients can be specified when you encode with x264 or MPEG-2, but I don't think decoders bother to implement them.
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tet
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Post subject: Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project Posted: 01 Nov 2013, 19:05 |
Knows how to post |
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Joined: 01 Nov 2005, 09:32 Posts: 10 Location: Germany Has thanked: 0 time Been thanked: 0 time
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What an awesome project! After many months of absence I found the time to stop by and it seems I found the most interesting HiVision project since years. Allow me to chime in some thougths... Audio: The Pioneer HM-D101/ Hitachi MD-20 decoders have digital audio outputs (Coax and SPDIF) over which they transmit 2x 2channel digital bitstream audio. This is likely the best source for capturing the audio signals. However, I never used this type of connection as I think none of my amps can handle the 3+1 channels over 2 bitstream lines correctly. The TU-MDC100 seems to have a digital jack as well (3.1 digital output over a single coax RCA port). Same here, I never bothered to connect it to my amps digital inputs. So I cannot confirm they are useful for digital audio captures. A few years ago I bought an M-Audio "Firewire 1814" analog/digital sound capture device. Something like this could be used here, but I never tried that. Picture: In terms of picture quality the Close Encounters disc is a bit disappointing. Many dark scenes with a low detail level (plus green tint on some player+decoder combination). I recommend Dances with Wolves, Cliffhanger or Chaplin, or the Panasonic discs (BTTF1/3/3 or Breakfast at Tiffanys), if you have the chance to acquire one. On the other hand the Scenery or Test Discs are far superior to the movies. I have Jumanji (and *some* other titles). Jumanji looks great, could be interesting to capture this one. Some time ago 2 Muse-enthusiasts and I did a side-by-side comparison with different decks (HLD-X0, HLD-X9, HLD-1000 - all in my possession) and decoders (HV-MD2, HM-D101, TU-MDC100, TU-AHD100, MSC-4000 - first three in my possession) and it turned out that some combinations worked very well, and some did not. I preferred the HLD-X0 connected to the Panasonic TU-MDC100 (3rd gen decoder) over all other combinations - I believe this is the best stand alone decoder as far as PQ is concerned, and the coax audio output seems promising. This player+decoder combination also showed very little of the greenish tint some HV-LDs seems to create on some players (e.g. Lawrence of Arabia - if played on the HLD-X9). Sometimes the MDC100 shows up on auctions for cheap as it became useless since the BS-9 satellite shutdown. The longer you spend your spare time with LD and HV-LD the more equipment and LDs you end up with - at least that's what happened to me. You're in for some very rewarding hours with an interesting technology. I think I'll try to stop by from time to time if my little spare time allows and see if I could be of any help.
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publius
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Post subject: Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project Posted: 01 Nov 2013, 19:59 |
Hardcore fan |
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Joined: 23 Sep 2003, 18:14 Posts: 1391 Location: United States Has thanked: 39 times Been thanked: 21 times
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tet wrote: Audio: The Pioneer HM-D101/ Hitachi MD-20 decoders have digital audio outputs (Coax and SPDIF) over which they transmit 2x 2channel digital bitstream audio. This is likely the best source for capturing the audio signals. However, I never used this type of connection as I think none of my amps can handle the 3+1 channels over 2 bitstream lines correctly. The TU-MDC100 seems to have a digital jack as well (3.1 digital output over a single coax RCA port). Same here, I never bothered to connect it to my amps digital inputs. So I cannot confirm they are useful for digital audio captures. A few years ago I bought an M-Audio "Firewire 1814" analog/digital sound capture device. Something like this could be used here, but I never tried that. Checking the TU-MDC100 manual, it appears that there is (in addition to two pairs of switchable 2/4 channel audio outputs) the standard "bitstream" jack (RCA), two coaxial digital audio jacks (RCA) for left+right & center+surround, & one "3-1 Stereo" jack (mini-phone M3). This latter, I have reason to believe, does not provide a multichannel digital audio output. Instead, it simply transmits a voltage signal when A-Mode 3+1 Stereo is being output, for the use of some Japanese multichannel receivers which had an auto-switching function between 2-channel (with Pro-Logic or other processing if wanted, probably) & 4-channel input modes. This could be easily enough checked with an oscilloscope.
_________________ MUSE decoder information and user guides LD player connexion guide
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publius
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Post subject: Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project Posted: 02 Nov 2013, 02:25 |
Hardcore fan |
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Joined: 23 Sep 2003, 18:14 Posts: 1391 Location: United States Has thanked: 39 times Been thanked: 21 times
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Yes, 1035×1920 pixel matrix, 16:9 aspect ratio, with non-square sampling. But it's actually more complicated than that. Firstly, MUSE drops a total of three lines (I need to check, but I recall two at the top of the frame & one at the bottom), so that each field has a number of active lines divisible by four, for the subsampling process to work correctly. Secondly, MUSE cuts off the very far ends of each line, 15 samples at the MUSE master rate of 44.55 MHz, which is equivalent to 25 samples at the HD master rate of 74.25 MHz. msgohan wrote: So I just learned 1035i uses nonsquare sampling. I was wondering why it would have been 1.85507...:1 aspect ratio, but it is regular 16:9 using nonsquare samples the same way as 480i and 576i. It also uses different colorimetry than the regular Rec.709. And the colorimetry defined in the MUSE spec (see ITU-R BO.786) is different yet again, partly because an inverse gamma correction is performed on the RGB components, which are then matrixed in quasi-linear form, & there is some strange processing — amplitude of the quasi-linear difference signals is doubled, then clipped, so highly saturated colours can become inaccurate in value & lose resolution. There is also a 'transmission gamma' applied which is different for Y & C (to reduce the effect of channel noise in dark regions), & to reduce the cost of digital signal processing, early encoders applied the C gamma before subsampling, which leads to a certain amount of chroma noise & chroma-luma interference.
_________________ MUSE decoder information and user guides LD player connexion guide
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