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 Post subject: Re: Interfacing MUSE A-Mode 3+1 and B-Mode with modern equip
PostPosted: 12 May 2014, 00:02 
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xtempo wrote:
publius wrote:
disclord, I'm glad you finally got MUSE capability, & that my HV-MD2 guide is useful for you. I'm using an imported SP-D07 myself, hooked up to my TU-AHD100N, HIL-C2EX, and CLD-D704.

xtempo, since the D07 is the same as an American D99 aside from details of the power supply, any good stereo repair shop that handles Pioneer components should be able to fix it for you. I'm going to take mine in to get it cleaned up at some point.



I should have brought it when I first got it in the mail so I could get a refund. I am keeping it for the guy to repair sometime in the future when I have more money for repairs. the board was cracked in several places which is why there was no sound outputed. I wish people would ship there items better.


Just an update I was able to win another one less than what the repair shop said would take to fix it. I am thinking if this one is in bad condition would it be easy to put in the other case?
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 Post subject: Re: Interfacing MUSE A-Mode 3+1 and B-Mode with modern equip
PostPosted: 12 May 2014, 05:44 
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spiny-norman wrote:
Yeah so the icon is no meant to be taken literally.
But at the back of the players, were these 4 channels somehow disguised as just plain stereo (L+R cinch cables)?

The only "disguise" going on is with matrix stereo. In other words, on standard LD analog or digital audio, or MUSE B-Mode with Dolby Surround, the four channels are mixed down into two channels, & then the surround decoder takes that mix, & tries to reconstruct the original four. The quality of the result is limited, which is why discrete formats such as A-Mode 3+1 were created. Of course, the matrix technique can also take two-channel recordings which didn't start out as four channels, & spread them around the room, sometimes with amusing results.
But discrete formats always have multiple connectors of some kind in the analog domain. MUSE decoders generally have either 4 or 5 RCA jacks at the back panel for the A-Mode discrete multichannel audio, & external AC-3 & dts decoders typically have six (L, C, R, Ls, Rs, LFE).
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 Post subject: Re: Interfacing MUSE A-Mode 3+1 and B-Mode with modern equip
PostPosted: 12 May 2014, 12:51 
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publius wrote:
Of course, the matrix technique can also take two-channel recordings which didn't start out as four channels, & spread them around the room, sometimes with amusing results.
That is what confused me - I thought it was ALWAYS just a trick.
So are there LD players that make more of the 4 channel surround than just this matrixed system? Or is it already 'matrixed' on the LD? I mean, could the 3+1 really be a substitute for the 6 separate channels of 5.1 sound?
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Interfacing MUSE A-Mode 3+1 and B-Mode with modern equip
PostPosted: 12 May 2014, 15:33 
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spiny-norman wrote:
publius wrote:
Of course, the matrix technique can also take two-channel recordings which didn't start out as four channels, & spread them around the room, sometimes with amusing results.
That is what confused me - I thought it was ALWAYS just a trick.
So are there LD players that make more of the 4 channel surround than just this matrixed system? Or is it already 'matrixed' on the LD? I mean, could the 3+1 really be a substitute for the 6 separate channels of 5.1 sound?


Except for a DTS or Dolby AC-3 title that had 6 channels encoded down to 4, no, there is no other way for discrete channels to be present on a regular LaserDisc. The PCM tracks on a LaserDisc are ALWAYS 2 discrete channels only. And calling Dolby Surround, Circle Surround, Neural, Pro-Logic II and other matrix surround formats a 'trick' isn't really accurate - while there are limitations as compared to the original discrete channels, with a good Matrix Multiplier/Vector Cancellation based decoder, those matrix encoded channels can be largely recovered, but not all at the exact same instant - matrix surround decoders like Pro Logic II rely on the fact that we are not super great at localizing multiple simultaneous sounds coming from different directions - in each 'instant' in time we are locating only a single direction, but the decoders operate so fast we think we are hearing 3 or more separate channels (the Tate Directional Enhancement System used for SQ Quadraphonic recordings and in Dolby Stereo theater decoders until 1986 operated as fast as 1 to 3 milliseconds, which is fast enough to localize 200 to 300 sound events per second)
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 Post subject: Re: Interfacing MUSE A-Mode 3+1 and B-Mode with modern equip
PostPosted: 12 May 2014, 15:52 
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spiny-norman wrote:
That is what confused me - I thought it was ALWAYS just a trick.
So are there LD players that make more of the 4 channel surround than just this matrixed system? Or is it already 'matrixed' on the LD? I mean, could the 3+1 really be a substitute for the 6 separate channels of 5.1 sound?

You are mixing up different things.

DUAL MONO : 2 completely separate, unrelated channels of audio are recorded.

STEREO : 2 related channels of audio are recorded, one for each ear. On LD, they are recorded separately, on different analog carrier waves (NTSC) or as the two channels of a PCM digital recording identical to the audio on a Compact Disc (NTSC or MUSE), and can also be used for dual mono. By contrast, on LP or FM radio, the 'channel separation' is limited.

MATRIX SURROUND : 4 related channels of audio are mixed down to 2 channels, in such a way that they can be separated again, although the channel separation of the reconstructed audio will be limited. This works best when the channel separation of the 2 mixdown channels is high, so this type of reproduction from LD is superior to that from a matrix-surround LP.

DISCRETE SURROUND : more than 2 channels of audio (usually 4 to 6) are independently recorded, with full channel separation. On NTSC LaserDisc, this can be done by AC-3 coding (which replaces one analog audio channel) or dts coding (which replaces both digital audio channels). On MUSE Hi-Vision LaserDisc, this takes the form of DANCE A-Mode 3+1 Stereo, which is embedded in the video. On either NTSC or MUSE, this discrete multi-channel audio is output from an external decoder, not from the LD player itself.

There is only one situation in which multiple (more than 2) independent channels of audio are output from the LD player. Certain NTSC industrial players have one set of output jacks for analog audio only, & another for analog or (if present) digital audio. On such a player, it is possible to have two stereo (or four mono) soundtracks playing back simultaneously. In principle, four-channel discrete surround sound could be played back in this way, but to my knowledge it was never done in practice.
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 Post subject: Re: Interfacing MUSE A-Mode 3+1 and B-Mode with modern equip
PostPosted: 12 May 2014, 21:03 
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The first several years of consumer LaserDisc players with digital sound also had the dual digital/analog + analog only audio outputs. Since the FM audio tracks have an 80kHz bandwidth Pioneer was going to make the analog tracks into 4-channel discrete audio by adding an additional carrier with the front minus back info on the carriers and the sum of front and back as the main signal that all players could decode - with an outboard demodulator and 4:4:4 matrix decoder the discrete channels would be recovered. It was basically JVC's CD-4 Quadradisc system on LaserDisc. Pioneer has several patents for the system from around that time - I think we (Publius and myself) talked a lot about the system and studied the patents in-depth a number of years ago.
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 Post subject: Re: Interfacing MUSE A-Mode 3+1 and B-Mode with modern equip
PostPosted: 23 Jun 2014, 19:45 
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Is there an easy way to dematrix the sound back to 3 front channels and 1 rear channel (or 2 rear mono channels) again?
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Interfacing MUSE A-Mode 3+1 and B-Mode with modern equip
PostPosted: 24 Jun 2014, 01:15 
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spiny-norman wrote:
Is there an easy way to dematrix the sound back to 3 front channels and 1 rear channel (or 2 rear mono channels) again?

Every modern multichannel receiver has a dozen or more different schemes, such as Dolby Pro-Logic, to do exactly that. If you really must, you can build a Hafler Matrix circuit, but it's easier just to buy one of the literally thousands of components available for the purpose, everything from 1970s "quad" receivers to some of the truly esoteric professional stuff some LDDb members use. And you'll get better results, too.

In fact, the Pioneer SP-D07 / SP-D99 described extensively in this discussion thread has that as one of its functions, along with decoding AC-3 discrete surround, & handling the discrete 3+1 surround from MUSE A-Mode.
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 Post subject: Re: Interfacing MUSE A-Mode 3+1 and B-Mode with modern equip
PostPosted: 24 Jun 2014, 03:20 
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It would be nice to be able stay in digital domain all the way. I am guessing any muse decoder would have very primitive dacs the spd99 would digitize them again for time-delay, bass management and its dsp. Then once more converted to analog via 20 years old dacs. My ssp would digitize the multich input once more for room correction at least.
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 Post subject: Re: Interfacing MUSE A-Mode 3+1 and B-Mode with modern equip
PostPosted: 24 Jun 2014, 17:50 
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Well, unless you have two parallel PCM inputs on your receiver, I guess what you would need is something I proposed a while back : a microcontroller-based solution that will take the "bitstream out" from the back of the MUSE decoder, decode the DANCE audio to PCM, then stick that onto an HDMI output. What would you be willing to pay?
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 Post subject: Re: Interfacing MUSE A-Mode 3+1 and B-Mode with modern equip
PostPosted: 24 Jun 2014, 18:05 
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I would pay a few large on a working device.
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 Post subject: Re: Interfacing MUSE A-Mode 3+1 and B-Mode with modern equip
PostPosted: 24 Jun 2014, 18:28 
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publius wrote:
spiny-norman wrote:
Is there an easy way to dematrix the sound back to 3 front channels and 1 rear channel (or 2 rear mono channels) again?

Every modern multichannel receiver has a dozen or more different schemes, such as Dolby Pro-Logic, to do exactly that. If you really must, you can build a Hafler Matrix circuit, but it's easier just to buy one of the literally thousands of components available for the purpose, everything from 1970s "quad" receivers to some of the truly esoteric professional stuff some LDDb members use. And you'll get better results, too.

In fact, the Pioneer SP-D07 / SP-D99 described extensively in this discussion thread has that as one of its functions, along with decoding AC-3 discrete surround, & handling the discrete 3+1 surround from MUSE A-Mode.
Sorry, I should have said: Is there an easy way to CAPTURE that signal. A decoder that does a good job AND has another output than just speakers.
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Interfacing MUSE A-Mode 3+1 and B-Mode with modern equip
PostPosted: 26 Jun 2014, 03:17 
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spiny-norman wrote:
Sorry, I should have said: Is there an easy way to CAPTURE that signal. A decoder that does a good job AND has another output than just speakers.

I guess I'm not sure what you want. You want to take a stereo audio signal from LD, which is actually a downmixed four-channel audio signal, then upmix it back to four channels, & record the four channels? If so, anything with multichannel "pre-outs" will do, including the aforementioned SP-D07/SP-99D. It has RCA jacks for Left, Right, Center, Surround Left, Surround Right, & LFE (subwoofer) channels.

substance wrote:
I would pay a few large on a working device.

I may hold you to that. I've been doing some electronics lately, & this is just the kind of thing to sink my teeth into.
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 Post subject: Re: Interfacing MUSE A-Mode 3+1 and B-Mode with modern equip
PostPosted: 26 Jun 2014, 04:05 
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I did say I would pay for it when you first proposed it a while back.

I will pay parts+labor for your time. Let me know when you come up with a number.

I would even pay more if you can modify the msc-4000 to have
hdmi with video+audio or
Hd-sdi with embedded audio or
Seperate hdmi audio out.

I am assuming muse is digital up until component video output. It might be possible to tap into the stream before d/a video converters.

As for audio, I want to think the decoder converts dance to pcm at one point before its dacs. I dont think sony made dacs which can handle dance natively.
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 Post subject: Re: Interfacing MUSE A-Mode 3+1 and B-Mode with modern equip
PostPosted: 26 Jun 2014, 07:49 
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The problem is just that nobody yet has found a source for an MSC-3000/4000 service manual. Without schematics, one is more or less probing blind. Come to that, I can see where the video DACs are, & I know what their clock frequency is, but there are a bunch of custom ICs with no datasheet to be found. On the other hand, I currently have two slightly different 3000s ; maybe I can 'sacrifice' one to test out those mods.
So far as the audio is concerned, I just think it would be easier to build an outboard box. Obviously you could take the two PCM digital outputs & run them through some kind of circuit to multiplex them into the format HDMI calls for, but my ultimate objective is to build an FPGA-based MUSE decoder. That would probably have a similar form factor to an AC-3 RF demodulator, but with HDMI output. Implementing the audio decoding routine would be a step toward that.
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 Post subject: Re: Interfacing MUSE A-Mode 3+1 and B-Mode with modern equip
PostPosted: 13 Dec 2014, 13:55 
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May I ask a rather simple question? How can I get ANY sound out of Dances with wolves in a simple way? I only have HLD-X9 (connected for Analog, Digital and ac-3) and MSC-4000 decoder. Sound is connected directly to Pioneer AVR, not trough decoder . I get it for Top Gun and Cliffhanger, but not for Dances with wolves and Twins.
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 Post subject: Re: Interfacing MUSE A-Mode 3+1 and B-Mode with modern equip
PostPosted: 14 Dec 2014, 22:20 
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Also, how dated is DAC of SP-D07 exactly? Does it sound bad to your ears? The unit was priced 1200 $ new. Are you sure it hasn't the same DAC as X9?
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 Post subject: Re: Interfacing MUSE A-Mode 3+1 and B-Mode with modern equip
PostPosted: 16 Dec 2014, 08:32 
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seroxx wrote:
May I ask a rather simple question? How can I get ANY sound out of Dances with wolves in a simple way? I only have HLD-X9 (connected for Analog, Digital and ac-3) and MSC-4000 decoder. Sound is connected directly to Pioneer AVR, not trough decoder . I get it for Top Gun and Cliffhanger, but not for Dances with wolves and Twins.

It's really very simple. Take the "red" & "white" audio jacks on the back of the MSC-4000 (ignore the other colours, & it doesn't matter which of the two sets you use). Connect them by a stereo audio cable to an unused analog stereo input on your receiver. Alternatively, connect the orange jack labelled "CH1,2" with an appropriate cable to an unused coaxial digital input on your receiver.
See the links in my signature for a more extensive treatment.
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 Post subject: Re: Interfacing MUSE A-Mode 3+1 and B-Mode with modern equip
PostPosted: 11 Jun 2015, 12:47 
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I found this now defunct stand alone dts encoder online. Its model number is creative home theater connect dts-610. It has 5.1 analog inputs and coaxial digital output. You feed it 5.1 analog and it converts to 5.1 dts at 1.5mbps.

I am going to use this on my muse decoder. Feed its 5ch into dts610 and hopefully it is smart enough to detect no subwoofer and spit out 5.0 dts. I can then connect this coax into my lumagen video processor which can merge this stream onto hdmi output with video combined.

My later project will be bypassing dts-610s analog to digital conversion and feed the two digital outouts from muse decoder directly into the fpga.
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 Post subject: Re: Interfacing MUSE A-Mode 3+1 and B-Mode with modern equip
PostPosted: 20 Jun 2015, 16:41 
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I had more time to test this device. Finally we have a solution!

Make: Creative Labs
Model: Home Theater Connect DTS-610

It's a small box approximately 7"x7"x1.5". It has two buttons in the front. One for power and another for switching modes. 1 digital coax input and 1 output, 1 digital optical input and 1 output. 6 analog inputs for 5.1ch configuration. it has no remote control and no possibility of operating it remotely.

Note: Optical and coax inputs are solely for pass through. It can only use 1 at a time. So feeding two coaxial from the muse decoder simultaneously isn't possible.

Sony muse decoder I have has 5ch analog output. I can feed these into 5.1 input( leaving .1 unplugged), the unit produces a fixed signal of DTS 5.1 at 1.5mbps in 44.1kHz. Settings can not be changed. This is a strange choice as 48kHz is used for movie soundtracks. Since Muse soundtrack in A mode 3+1 is 32kHz, this is not an issue. Another issue is this decoder expects .1 subwoofer channel which Muse soundtrack doesn't have. One work around is setting your front speakers to small in your AV receiver. This will apply bass management and redirect bass to your subwoofer from the front channels.

The pass through mode is nice as some Muse discs have B mode which 2ch only. In this case you can pass through 2ch audio directly into your AV receiver. This switch saves an input on your AV receiver.

I experimented with various input options. If I feed only 2 front channels into 5.1 analog input, the device outputs DTS 2.0. If I connect the center channel then outputs 3.1(automatically enabling .1 although no Lfe is connected). If I connect one of the rear channels, it outputs 4.0( 2 fronts 2 rears). I couldn't get it to output 4ch in 3 fronts 1 mono rear.

Dance encoding on Muse is 1.3mbps and this device does 1.5mbps. It is a good match in my opinion. Unfortunately DTS-610 is no longer made and it is not widely available on used market but you can see one for sale time to time. Apparently its ability to output 4ch in 2 front and 2 rears configuration attracts quadrophonic audio enthusiasts so there is some competition when 1 is available for sale. I bought mine used from amazon for $40 shipped. It retailed $200 new and blown out for $70 after it was discontinued.

Technical info:

I opened it up and I found the below:

Sharc SST melody series microprocessor and some flash memory. This type SST processor is for encoding/decoding DTS/DD/THX and various other DSP functions such as delay, bass management.

There are 3 - Philips 24bit 96kHz 2ch analog to digital converters.

All components, given the retail price of this thing at $200 looked very promising. I am convinced the analog to digital converters can be by passed and the unit can be fed digital directly from the Muse decoder. It appears the biggest bottleneck in this setup is the digital to analog converters that are over 15 years old in the Muse decoder.
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