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laserdisc.ws
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Post subject: best laserdisc players for analog audio? Posted: 24 Apr 2018, 10:08 |
Serious fan |
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Joined: 05 Mar 2012, 03:43 Posts: 180 Location: Italy Has thanked: 16 times Been thanked: 12 times
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disclord was a great expert; here are some of his thoughts about analog audio on laserdisc: disclord wrote: For those who are interested, the absolute best analog audio for LaserDisc comes from Pioneer's first consumer player, the VP-1000 - and it's made even better with the addition of Pioneer's R-1000 outboard CX decoder and CX encoded discs. The analog sound from the VP-1000 has sparkling treble and gives the impression of rich, deep bass - although the bass actually rolls off below 40 Hz or so, the overall spectral balance is such that it doesn't sound rolled off - that's why I say 'gives the impression of...' and it has none of that boxy 'cardboard-like' sound that the solid-state laser diode-based players all seem to have. The top-loading, Helium-Neon gas laser based LD-1100 (and its Magnavox and Sylvania clones) and LD-660 are close to the VP-1000 in analog audio quality, but don't quite reach its incredible performance in the treble - they do have the benefit of having built-in CX Noise Reduction but, like every player until the solid state Pioneer LD-700 was introduced, CX must be activated manually since auto CX coding hadn't yet been created when the top-loaders were made.
One note about outboard CX decoder required for the Pioneer VP-1000, Magnavox Magnavision VH-8000 & 8005 and the MCA DiscoVision/Pioneer PR-7820 - only Pioneer's R-1000 decoder will properly decode CX encoded LaserDisc's. Phase Linear, Audionics and even Pioneer made outboard CX decoders designed for CX encoded LP's - and while the overall operation is the same, the LaserDisc version of CX is NOT compatible with the LP version of CX. CX was originally invented by CBS Labs as a noise reduction system for records that would provide 20 db of noise reduction when decoded, but if played without decoding the music wouldnt sound obviously altered like it does with DBX and Dolby noise reduction - which was something that prevented DBX encoded LP's from gaining mainstream acceptance since they sounded so terrible without decoding. Pioneer wanted even greater compatability for those without a decoder, so they changed the CX specifications, reducing the amount of noise reduction from 20db to 14db and altering the level at which the the compression changes from 2:1 to 1:1 - with CX-20 for LP's and CED VideoDiscs the compression changes at -40 below 0db reference level. With CX-14 for LaserDisc's the compression changes at -28db below 0db reference level. Changes were made in the control circuitry too that affect the attack and decay times of the compression/expansion and there were other changes as well. This means that a CX decoder for LP's will not produce acceptable sound quality with CX encoded LaserDiscs - and as I already mentioned, while there were several different CX decoders for LP's made by various audio companies, only one CX decoder for LaserDisc's was ever made by Pioneer.
disclord wrote: Its a shame that the analog audio performance of the VP-1000 wasn't continued in later players - the audio of the top loading LD-1100, 660 and the Magnavox and Sylvania clones of the 1100 is excellent, and better than the solid state players, but the VP-1000 is the absolute best. It does require the outboard CX unit to suppress the buzz from the HeNe laser tube that all tube laser players suffered from - but the buzz is about -40db down, even without CX encoding/decoding. There's also almost no bass below 40Hz on laser tube players - the tube creates a lot of noise below 40Hz that beats with the 30Hz wow the disc generates, so bass below 40Hz was simply rolled off. Full frequency response from the analog tracks didn't happen until the solid state laser was introduced. So, according to him, the laserdisc players with best analog audio output are: Pioneer VP-1000 (no internal CX decoder) Pioneer LD-1100 (and its Magnavox and Sylvania clones) Pioneer LD-660 (all top-loading, Helium-Neon gas laser based) Now, I'm curious to know if some solid state player have similar quality, and how big could be the difference from the most basic models, and top high-end ones; I have several players, and I'd like to discover which has the best analog audio among them: Pioneer HLD-X9 Pioneer CLD-D925 Pioneer CLD-2950 Pioneer CLD-600 Pioneer LD-V4300D Philips CDV-400 Philips LDP-600WS I bet (quite obviously) the HLD-X9, even if the LD-V4300D "could" have some advantages in comparison to the others - direct linear motor as HLD-X0, single sided and no CD compatibility as HLD-X0, X9 and other MUSE and NTSC top players, plus no digital features at all (don't know if analog TBC could help with analog audio, though!) Other notable models?
_________________ FanRes - restoring wrong movies, one title at the time! blog.spoRv.com - a blog about video restoration…
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elahrairrah
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Post subject: Re: best laserdisc players for analog audio? Posted: 25 Apr 2018, 00:25 |
Young Padawan |
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Joined: 30 Aug 2005, 15:38 Posts: 3425 Location: New Jersey Has thanked: 79 times Been thanked: 152 times
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krbahr wrote: TThe newer Panasonics like the LX-900U has the common supply but I was thinking the better capacitors, cannot remember. All these newer players used the same IC to create the right/left analog audio so it’s what is around them. Theoretically then would the Runco LJR II transport (w/o the DAC) be very good for analog audio as were not the power supplies upgraded from the LX-900?
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laserdisc.ws
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Post subject: Re: best laserdisc players for analog audio? Posted: 25 Apr 2018, 07:43 |
Serious fan |
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Joined: 05 Mar 2012, 03:43 Posts: 180 Location: Italy Has thanked: 16 times Been thanked: 12 times
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Any opinion about sound quality - subjective, of course - is welcome, so thanks to all! admin wrote: ...the internal 20-bit DAC (Burr-Brown 1702K/PK) used by the X9 and X0 Julien, actually X9 uses 1702P-J (IIRC) which had a tiny bit lower quality than 1702K
_________________ FanRes - restoring wrong movies, one title at the time! blog.spoRv.com - a blog about video restoration…
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admin
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Post subject: Re: best laserdisc players for analog audio? Posted: 25 Apr 2018, 10:09 |
Site Admin |
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Joined: 07 Aug 2002, 23:37 Posts: 4569 Location: Tokyo Has thanked: 299 times Been thanked: 1166 times
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laserdisc.ws wrote: Julien, actually X9 uses 1702P-J (IIRC) which had a tiny bit lower quality than 1702K My bad, I was just quoting the page linked above that must be a typo: Quote: The X9 has the high-quality "K" "P" select version of the 1702. The X0 has the highest-quality "PK" version. Found substance's post with the right list, listing correctly 1702 P. Master list for DAC chips used in LD playersJulien
_________________ HARDWARE DATABASE HLD-X0/9 LD-S9 OPPO 105/205 SL-1200G LDD-1 MSC-4000 R2144 PONTUS II C45 MC257
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laserdisc.ws
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Post subject: Re: best laserdisc players for analog audio? Posted: 25 Apr 2018, 10:25 |
Serious fan |
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Joined: 05 Mar 2012, 03:43 Posts: 180 Location: Italy Has thanked: 16 times Been thanked: 12 times
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admin wrote: My bad, I was just quoting the page linked above that must be a typo
Well, I guess it's normal; how can someone remember everything in a forum with thousand posts? Unless you are Sheldon Cooper, of course! Great post by substance, by the way! Now, waiting for an "analog audio tracks - best sounding laserdisc players" chart!
_________________ FanRes - restoring wrong movies, one title at the time! blog.spoRv.com - a blog about video restoration…
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laserdisc.ws
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Post subject: Re: best laserdisc players for analog audio? Posted: 25 Apr 2018, 20:51 |
Serious fan |
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Joined: 05 Mar 2012, 03:43 Posts: 180 Location: Italy Has thanked: 16 times Been thanked: 12 times
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He's sorely missing... each time I read (often re-read) his messages, I always think he would eventual add something, but he can't anymore... Next week I'd like to take some time, and made few captures using several of my players. It will be great if anyone else would do the same, so we can build up a comparison between more than few players; I think one or two minutes will be enough to get an idea of how good (or bad) one would sound. About software, one title that almost anyone has, like Jurassic Park, Alien/Aliens, Terminator 2, would do? Pioneer CX decoder: if I eventually will find an used VP-1000 for this purpose - capture the analog tracks, nothing else - I'll surely need it; just in case, as it seems you don't use it anymore, may you mind to sell it?
_________________ FanRes - restoring wrong movies, one title at the time! blog.spoRv.com - a blog about video restoration…
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admin
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Post subject: Re: best laserdisc players for analog audio? Posted: 26 Apr 2018, 04:58 |
Site Admin |
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Joined: 07 Aug 2002, 23:37 Posts: 4569 Location: Tokyo Has thanked: 299 times Been thanked: 1166 times
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krbahr wrote: (I would have to check service manuals for 3090 thru 702) As a practical example, I took a good look at the CLD-D925 service manual to find out which chip was used as a DAC: Toshiba TC9400FA quick Google search shows that it's used also in the CLD-3760KV. DV-505, DVL-909, DV-S9 (common service manual) shows 1 x Pioneer PD2029AM(L)DVL-919 has 1 x Pioneer PE8001A (also in DV-717) LD-S2 is 2 x Fujitsu MB40778Etc. Julien
_________________ HARDWARE DATABASE HLD-X0/9 LD-S9 OPPO 105/205 SL-1200G LDD-1 MSC-4000 R2144 PONTUS II C45 MC257
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