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Posted: 31 Mar 2018, 21:02 

A few years ago, I found this link for info on LD and bookmarked it: http://www.pvv.ntnu.no/~sao/movie_page/ld.html

Which lead me to: http://www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Contrib/EuropeLD/PALldFAQ.html which is now gone.

I was able to find a snapshot of the data from 2010 at: https://web.archive.org/web/20101206010523/http://www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Contrib/EuropeLD/PALldFAQ.html

maybe this information should be preserved at lddb somewhere?

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Posted: 26 Nov 2019, 17:43 

I connected with a seller in Germany and have a player on the way. Thanks all!

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Posted: 20 Dec 2019, 19:04 


I've never been happy with LD or VHS on modern displays. Thankfully, I've got an HD CRT in reserve.


A little off topic, but I have an LG OLED55E7P 55" TV that laserdiscs look really good on at my typical viewing distance (it's in the bedroom, so maybe 10 feet away?). Even just plugging into the composite, it has a great comb filter. I wish there was a way to capture it. Unfortunately, i don't often watch LDs in the bedroom.

I had DVHS/Dtheater, but sold them all when i got HDVDD (and later bluray) because they were only 1080i and took up more space. I can't remember, could you fast forward past the FBI warnings and previews on Dtheater? If so, then I put DVHS at the #1 spot! I recently threw in a bluray that had 6 mandatory previews before i could watch the movie, it did irritate me immensely.

When i switched from LD to DVD, i only had a 27" crt. The Signal to noise ratio was much better with DVD, and my screen was too small to see the compression, digitization artifacts, and Edge Enhancement. Now all those things are just gross.

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Posted: 24 Jul 2020, 17:54 

FWIW, i have accomplished a "proof of concept" by successfully decoding "something" using an RF capture i made with a LimeSDR (USB version).
https://ready.cs.washington.edu/~tandersn/ruckusframe.jpg

This process required nothing too complicated. Following internet instructions for installing LimeSDR on ubuntu, then ld-decode on ubuntu, and using "pothos flow" (a visual SDR block flow tool) to capture an rf file. Happycube added the compatibility for the file type (float32, thanks). I only have "broad strokes" knowledge of all the concepts, so it could only improve from here. This setup can be obtained with zero soldering. EDIT: [I did have to remove one component from the limesdr board to improve HF performance, this can be done with a screwdriver]. I bought everything, hooked it up, and fiddled with the GUI settings of Pothos Flow for the SDR until i saw something in the ~7Mhz range. https://ready.cs.washington.edu/~tandersn/pothosflow.jpg

While i realize for an actual archive capture, you would want to use the domesday duplicator board, for doing comparisons and tests, or to get your feet wet, this setup might provide a means to do that. the "domesday duplicator" is better and will provide the most fidelity, but this is an "off the shelf" solution that is available to anyone hesitant to put together the board.

I believe that the LimeSDR *may* be overkill at this point, because there are now cheap off the shelf frequency multipliers (shifter?) available (https://airspy.com/spyverter-r2/). Using such a device, you could use a cheaper SDR, and then just divide the signal in pothos flow.

DISCLAIMER: I can not confirm yet that this is a "full working solution". The "Ruckus" disc is in horrible shape, nothing in the setup has been optimized. I think that the capture the picture above is taken from, doesn't have a strong enough signal in the EFM, and possibly the analog audio.

Anyone reading this that has SDR knowledge, let me know. I literally just fiddled around with things until i got something ld-decode would accept. When i raised the gain past ~43 for the SDR, the signal actually disappeared!

Tony

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Posted: 17 Aug 2020, 22:48 

"just for star wars", i'd probably have to agree, not worth it... (thx 1138 is also only to be found in original form on LD AFAIK, "the abyss" is best on LD, but it will soon be out on bluray, Cameron just did a 4k scan of it).

The last time i watched star wars, i watched "the silver screen edition" which is an amateur scanned 35mm film print. It's not "great", but i prefer it to the (de)specialized versions. That may be because of my age though. Star Wars looked like a "film" in the theater, and the "silver screen edition" holds truer to that. The (de)specialized version is mostly made up from the bluray, iirc. The bluray was heavily processed, and looks more like the prequel style of movie making to me. Both of them have the annoying effect of turning the film grain into tiny little distracting squares though, which is one thing the LD will not. Those are most annoying on a theater size screen though.

I've said this before in other threads, the best PQ i can get with LD is "composite straight into my LG OLED TV", which is maybe 3 years old? No processors needed. It looks like the newer LG OLEDs don't have composite anymore though, so i may have been lucky enough to score this right before they stopped offering it.

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Posted: 18 Aug 2020, 04:00 

Will play devils advocate here.....

When i first read this, i thought you meant, you'd play "Devil's Advocate" the movie, on laserdisc! lol. I was thinking you mentioned it, because the LD is the only version with the original wall art sculpture thing (again, iirc). So in a sense, that's another movie that has the original that wasn't ever released on dvd or bluray (but it is just a sculpture on the wall in the back of the guy's office).

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Posted: 23 Aug 2020, 19:02 

I've been buying MORE discs recently. Here' show that happened:

I used to buy a handful of movies per month, at the video store, the previously viewed ones. It was a family ritual, my kids and i would go down there, and pick out 3 or 4 or whatever the sale was, once a month or so. Then streaming started, and that slowed down. For a while, i didn't buy anything. I would just go on to netflix and watch it.

However, as more and more streaming services come online, the movies on netflix have plummeted (not counting netflix original content). I made the mistake of watching a movie on Hulu, and it ended up being the "edited for TV version", so hulu is out for movies for me. I have netflix, prime, and hulu. I am not going to get any more streaming services. I may not continue hulu at all. I'll keep prime, because i use that for the shipping, and prime video is just a perk. On Amazon prime, most times i go to watch something, they want to charge me (e.g. that particular movie isn't included in prime). So then i am in this position to pay amazon $10 to rent the HD, or $15-$20 to buy the bluray. I buy it. I recently bought "once upon a time in hollywood" and the downton abbey movie. This is seeming like an upward trend for me.

TL;DR: with the split up of the streaming into all these disparate services (so content being spread out among them), i'm now back to the point where buying the movie physically, seems more appealing than paying for a subscription to 20 different streaming services.

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Posted: 25 Aug 2020, 01:00 

The Abyss
https://ready.cs.washington.edu/~tandersn/nobackup/capsamps/720xabyss_cav_1000u_x75a1.png.jpg
https://ready.cs.washington.edu/~tandersn/nobackup/capsamps/720xabyss_cav_1000u_x75a3.png.jpg
https://ready.cs.washington.edu/~tandersn/nobackup/capsamps/720xabyss_cav_1000u_x75a5.png.jpg
https://ready.cs.washington.edu/~tandersn/nobackup/capsamps/720xabyss_cav_1000u_x75a6.png.jpg
https://ready.cs.washington.edu/~tandersn/nobackup/capsamps/720xabyss_cav_1000u_x75a7.png.jpg
https://ready.cs.washington.edu/~tandersn/nobackup/capsamps/720xabyss_cav_1000u_x75a8.png.jpg
https://ready.cs.washington.edu/~tandersn/nobackup/capsamps/720xabyss_cav_1000u_x75a9.png.jpg
https://ready.cs.washington.edu/~tandersn/nobackup/capsamps/720xabyss_cav_1000u_x75a10.png.jpg

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Posted: 25 Aug 2020, 05:23 

Okay, pulled out something special. This is the "anamorphic" version of "the fugitive". yes, that's right, it is one of those few sample promo discs from the USA that is anamorphic:

Fugitive, The (1993) [16904]

https://ready.cs.washington.edu/~tandersn/nobackup/capsamps/854xfugitive_anamorphic_2.png.png
https://ready.cs.washington.edu/~tandersn/nobackup/capsamps/854xfugitive_anamorphic_3.png.png
https://ready.cs.washington.edu/~tandersn/nobackup/capsamps/854xfugitive_anamorphic_4.png.png
https://ready.cs.washington.edu/~tandersn/nobackup/capsamps/854xfugitive_anamorphic_5.png.png
https://ready.cs.washington.edu/~tandersn/nobackup/capsamps/854xfugitive_anamorphic_6.png.png
https://ready.cs.washington.edu/~tandersn/nobackup/capsamps/854xfugitive_anamorphic_7.png.png

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Posted: 25 Aug 2020, 05:27 

...and more anamorphic laserdisc content. I forgot to change the IRE (this one is Japanese) so it is a little blown:

Test Disc for Wide Television, The (1995) [SRLW 1726]

https://ready.cs.washington.edu/~tandersn/nobackup/capsamps/854xtest_disc_for_ws_tv_6.png.png
https://ready.cs.washington.edu/~tandersn/nobackup/capsamps/854xtest_disc_for_ws_tv_11.png.png
https://ready.cs.washington.edu/~tandersn/nobackup/capsamps/854xtest_disc_for_ws_tv_16.png.png
https://ready.cs.washington.edu/~tandersn/nobackup/capsamps/854xtest_disc_for_ws_tv_17.png.png
https://ready.cs.washington.edu/~tandersn/nobackup/capsamps/854xtest_disc_for_ws_tv_21.png.png
https://ready.cs.washington.edu/~tandersn/nobackup/capsamps/854xtest_disc_for_ws_tv_23.png.png
https://ready.cs.washington.edu/~tandersn/nobackup/capsamps/854xtest_disc_for_ws_tv_24.png.png
https://ready.cs.washington.edu/~tandersn/nobackup/capsamps/854xtest_disc_for_ws_tv_25.png.png
https://ready.cs.washington.edu/~tandersn/nobackup/capsamps/854xtest_disc_for_ws_tv_26.png.png
https://ready.cs.washington.edu/~tandersn/nobackup/capsamps/854xtest_disc_for_ws_tv_32.png.png
https://ready.cs.washington.edu/~tandersn/nobackup/capsamps/854xtest_disc_for_ws_tv_34.png.png
https://ready.cs.washington.edu/~tandersn/nobackup/capsamps/854xtest_disc_for_ws_tv_37.png.png
https://ready.cs.washington.edu/~tandersn/nobackup/capsamps/854xtest_disc_for_ws_tv_39.png.png
https://ready.cs.washington.edu/~tandersn/nobackup/capsamps/854xtest_disc_for_ws_tv_40.png.png
https://ready.cs.washington.edu/~tandersn/nobackup/capsamps/854xtest_disc_for_ws_tv_41.png.png
(all 41 samples available in full size here: Test Disc Samples )

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Posted: 25 Aug 2020, 22:58 

Titan91,

I was waiting for someone more knowledgeable to respond, and they can correct me if i am wrong.

While the spec says the highest frequency is 9.31Mhz (or whatever it is), happycube once told me you needed about ~12.5Mhz of bandwidth, minimum, for the captures. I don't know why that is the case, but that is what i recall (iirc).

Nyquist-Shannon states the minimum, but that is the minimum with the most quantization noise/error. You can't go with the 10 bit 14.4MSPS mode, because it isn't high enough. period. So that leaves you the 2 8 bit modes. The higher msps will get you less quantization noise/error, so i'd go for that.

Just make sure your disk is fast enough to save it.

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Posted: 27 Aug 2020, 09:09 

Okay, all this talk got me curious. I did some captures and have some samples. Here is a comparison between 4 of the discussed versions:

This is an exterior woodland shot before they pick up inside the rebel base to talk about the attack, towards the end of the film (click on the magnifying glass, or you won't really see the difference).
https://ready.cs.washington.edu/~tandersn/nobackup/capsamps/swanh/compare4.png

Disclaimers:
1.There is something in my capture chain that makes the images stretched a little in the horizontal direction. Not sure what that is, the capture thing is secondary to me viewing it on my PJ. That makes everyone and everything look a little "plump".
2. My japanese definitive edition is lent to my daughter, so I didn't have it here to compare with.
3. this is a subjective comparison based on my hardware and capture chain. These LDs could look better, or worse, on someone else's hardware (wrt comparing to DVD).

What i see is this:
1. the compression artifacts in the DVD are very apparent and annoying (especially so in this particular scene).
2. The kurraray faces is super blurry, this is the DNR that everyone complains about, however, tonight, i would say my perception is that it varies from scene to scene (the extremeness of the DNR, and it was bad in that shot).
3. The fox technidisc pressing actually has a different AR! This makes it look better throughout, because it has more "picture elements" being displayed on the screen.
4. the JSC has the most detail of the LDs i tested.
5. the colors in the FOX technidisc are beautiful. Colors can be adjusted, so not sure how important that is.
6. the resolution/bandwidth of all the star wars LDs is pretty poor when compared to my captures of "the abyss". Unfortunate. ABYSS CAPS

I reset my capture chain components to factory defaults before i started this. All LD were captured the same, except the JSC had the IRE adjusted to account for their different level of black. Of course, my equipment does something to the picture, but let us agree that it does it equally to all the LD captuers (so not the DVD).

What i couldn't capture, is this"
1. the JSC is very "noisy". You notice it when watching it in motion, but it is hard to capture in the stills.
2. the JSC has more cross color artifacts than the FOX or FACES (i don't know why)
3. The Faces has a smeary greasy look when watching it in motion, that i can't capture in a still. it is like the movement of the "color" portion lags behind the movement of the luma portion.
4. The DVD looks quite good in 70% or more of the shots, better than LD, but when it is worse, it is so worse (compression noise/artifacts) that i hate it.
5. the DVD has some jaggies which implies it was composite master, but it has no cross color artifacts ???

i would say, that my opinion stands, that i like the FOX Technidisc best still. The AR isn't that much different to bother me. The JSC is too noisy, and the FACES is too smeary. The GOUT DVD is too "compression artifacty". That's just my personal preference though.

I took 14 stills of each, at as close to the same time as i could, and you can view/download them here: SWANH Comparison

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Posted: 27 Aug 2020, 17:37 

The US faces art is crap anyway, I've seen better cover art on kids colouring books.
The Kurraray pressed faces have the same covers. They are US releases pressed at a different plant.

Wow...faces look like crap.
Sometimes. It varies from "crap" to "bothersome" depending on the scene.


Let me again posit my theory that there is no actual discernible difference between the kurraray faces (Japanese pressing) and the Pioneer faces (USA Pressing)
I don't have the non Kurrary faces to compare. It is a question i have been curious about. There might be differences, but they might be moot because of the DVNR.

No, its possible that they are superNTSC but they did so much other stuff to them that they screwed the pooch.
I want to say, that 5 or so years ago, i did a deep dive into this, and somehow determined that they weren't/couldn't be. On 2 fronts:

1) I can't recall all the specifics, and of course, i can't be 100% positive, but it was something like this: SuperNTSC discs have to be mastered from a component (D1) tape. The faces were made from the same master tape as the definitive edition. The Definitive edition was mastered from a composite tape. The Definitive edition was manufactured way before anyone was using SuperNTSC for laserdiscs (1993). The only thing here, in #1, that is a "fact", is that the source has to be component. Everything else here, is stuff i read / dug up, and can not be verified 100%.

2) Using my SuperNTSC decoder, I didn't achieve any better result in viewing them and in my most recent comparison above, it appears on par with the FOX disc WRT cross color and jaggies. If it was SuperNTSC, it should be better.

That being said, yes, it is possible that they "screwed the pooch" as you say, and negated any benefit.

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Posted: 02 Sep 2020, 05:36 

"Ask not what you can do for SuperNTSC, but what SuperNTSC can do for your laserdiscs". I've mentioned SuperNTSC a few times, so i thought i share some SuperNTSC captures done with my SuperNTSC decoder: Faroudja CFD-SN (I've also figured out why, and how to correct, the aspect ratio of my pictures).

There's probably no reason to watch this movie on laserdisc, although i have heard that it is the only true theatrical release, the DVD and all later releases are altered somehow... this is the first SuperNTSC example: Star Wars: The Phantom Menace (1999) [PILF-2830]

https://ready.cs.washington.edu/~tandersn/nobackup/capsamps/ep1/ep1_1000u_cfdn_t2d_1.png.png

https://ready.cs.washington.edu/~tandersn/nobackup/capsamps/ep1/ep1_1000u_cfdn_t2d_3.png.png

https://ready.cs.washington.edu/~tandersn/nobackup/capsamps/ep1/ep1_1000u_cfdn_t2d_6.png.png

https://ready.cs.washington.edu/~tandersn/nobackup/capsamps/ep1/ep1_1000u_cfdn_t2d_10.png.png

https://ready.cs.washington.edu/~tandersn/nobackup/capsamps/ep1/ep1_1000u_cfdn_t2d_11.png.png

All 16 samples

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Posted: 04 Sep 2020, 04:07 

Is it the best quality capture?

It is very good for the cost. However, i have one that i bought to test (not sure if it is exact same YMMV), and it "softens" the picture, reduces the luma resolution. Here i captured using the composite to hdmi converter i got from amazon:

https://ready.cs.washington.edu/~tandersn/nobackup/capsamps/comp2hdmi/comp2hdmi.png

Compared to using a Harris X75 with OPT-A3D:

https://ready.cs.washington.edu/~tandersn/nobackup/capsamps/comp2hdmi/x75.png

Notice the medals on the Captain's chest. For the first one, the individual lines are blurred together, but for the x75, you can make them out. However, it is getting hard to find good composite equipment these days. It's all used, old, surplus, on ebay.

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Posted: 19 Sep 2020, 04:56 

i didn't find an entry in lddb, which made me kind of want to buy it, but I don't speak Taiwanese...

LAWRENCE OF ARABIA

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Posted: 25 Sep 2020, 23:21 

According to wikipedia : "Later "SP" and "OS" models ran Off-SPeed, making them technically friendly for 24-frame telecine film transfers to D1 tape - and allowing a single tape to provide both NTSC (525 vertical lines) and PAL (625 lines) masters at one time."

So D1 could do 24 fps as well.

Some of the attributes you associate with SuperNTSC could just be from improved mastering techniques. My Abyss, The: Extended Version (1989) [0896885] SuperNTSC LDs are noisy in dark scenes, for instance. Conversely, I have a superntsc decoder, CFD-SN (2 actually). I recently did some A/B comparisons with Kurraray Faces vs. FOX technidisc pressing vs. JSC. The technidisc and Faces were about the same for cross color artifacts, but both were way better than the JSC. This tells me that there are other factors that contribute to the cross color artifacts, because there is no way the Star Wars: A New Hope (FOX) (1977) [1130-85] technidisc pressing is SuperNTSC.

My Criterion Armageddon: Special Edition #384 (1998) (Uncut) [CC1548L] looks horrible. Really bad cross color artifacts. It is the last criterion disc. Pressed in 1999 at Kuraray. So just because it checks all the boxes, doesn't mean it is SuperNTSC, sadly. Was very disappointed in that LD. It has other issues too, bad smearing.

I wish there was a truly definitively way to tell, like there is with PAL+ (extra lines of resolution in the blanking area), but i haven't found any.

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Posted: 26 Sep 2020, 03:52 

Y/C multiplicative bandwidth expansions ^^^ Emphasis mine. ^^^
I'm pretty sure the full color bandwidth is only "after"; "bandwidth expansion" by a SuperNTSC decoder, so you wouldn't easily detect it from the RF the domesday decoder gets (also, if you didn't see in the ld-decode thread, i actually used a LimeSDR to capture and decode the LD RF). The RF bandwidth on the LD is finite, that extra color bandwidth isn't in the raw signal, but "encoded" in the base signal. Similar to how AC3 is "encoded" into one analog channel, but you need an AC3 decoder to get it. I have that book that he quoted, and read it about 5 years ago. I won't state it as fact, but that is best i can recall.
[edit]I found the reference: and spectrum expansion in the decoder. see post below for the link to the paper where this reference is from.[/edit]

signal without NTSC artifacts.
This is referring to cross color/raindbowing and jagged diagonal lines, which to me, is the big benefit.

In my posts in the screencaps thread with "episode one" and "first contact", those shots look good, with minimal jaggies and cross color, because i used my SuperNTSC decoder. I don't have a lumagen or super fancy anything like that. If i play the JSC through that setup, every star in the space scenes is a different color. I had intended to post caps from my Armageddon criterion, assuming it was SuperNTSC by the stats it has, but when i started looking at them, it was bad. My fairly recently purchased 4k TV looks good, but i can't capture that.

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Posted: 26 Sep 2020, 04:10 

From IEEE: NTSC and beyond by Y.C. Faroudja
The NTSC composite signal, which emerges from a standard encoder (Fig. 3), has three distinct deficiencies in descending order of importance, as follows:
1. Cross color
2. Cross luminance
3. Limited chroma bandwidth
You may not be able to download that, unless you have access. My affiliation with the University grants me access, so i have downloaded a copy here:
NTSC and beyond by Y.C. Faroudja If you want a copy, download it and save it, i can't promise how long it will be there.

This a paper where Y.C. Faroudja talks about NTSC, and how Cross Color is the #1 thing to solve, cross luminance the #2 thing to solve, and limited chroma the #3 thing solve, with SuperNTSC.
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