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| 9954tony |
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Posted: 24 Nov 2020, 20:10
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I am still "fine tuning" my setup, but things are steadily improving. Currently, the setup is (all coax is rg174):
1. 4300D (uncalibrated, but supposedly "new in box" when i bought it, and appeared as such)
2. tapping RF off of pickup rather than internal RF test point (avoids 90s era amplification circuitry)
3. inline 50ohm (51 actually) resistor
4. pre made OPA657 amplifier board with manual gain adjustment: LINK mounted in a project box, SMA connectors removed, coax attached to board, and to BNC connectors. Powered with 6 "AA" batteries in 2 3x holders: LINK
5. an inline 20ohm resistor (should probably be higher ohm, the amp amplifies a lot, and is easy to overload the ADC)
6. 13+mhz low pass filter from mini circuits: link coax connected to BNC connectors so it is removable.
7. BNC "T" connector and 50ohm termination ( i like to have the option to remove it, but could be integrated into modified card)
7. Capture card, PCIe CXADC card: LINK which is modified, removing onboard LPF, onboard 75ohm termination, BNC port added where one of the RCA jacks was, wire connecting to the DC blocking cap on the circuit board for the S-Video input. 28.636mhz crystal replaced with 40mhz: LINK for 40msps capture without driver modification.
Things i am still investigating:
1. using alternate (10.7+) LPF
2. improved connection to PCIe board (get closer to chip pin to reduce exposed trace, which can pick up interference)
3. my short captures are better than long ones at same settings, indicating maybe a heat sink is needed?
4. update the driver to do 40msps without changing crystal (progress made, but S/N is poor).
For those that "only have a laptop" would be interesting to know if something like this works: mini pcie to pcie
Chapter 33 of ggv1069:
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/666555924185350154/780850978411905074/unknown.png |
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| 9954tony |
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Posted: 02 Jan 2021, 20:36
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Technically speaking, LD players are designed to read warped discs. From "Pioneer Tuning Fork No.6", pg. 60:
a) Focus servo system Slight up and down fluttering of the disc is inevitable when playing because every disc has uneven and warped surface.
I have some pretty badly warped discs, that will play all the way through.
LDs have "tilt". The LD is so big and heavy, that it actually "droops" on the outer edges. The "tilt" compensator mechanism adjusts the head angle to compensate for this.
If one player will play your discs, and another will only play them for "a while", then it is probably the "tilt" mechanism being inoperative in the player that won't play the discs. A malfunctioning or inoperative "tilt" mechanism, will be exacerbated by a warped disc. |
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| 9954tony |
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Posted: 03 Jan 2021, 02:32
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@rein-o, i know you are probably right, and the OP is just using some kind of "slang" to describe the TV... BUT, when flatscreen's were first introduced, CRT manufacturers first tried to compete by actually making "slim" and "ultra slim" CRTs! Later they would just give up and make their own non-crts.
worlds-first-ultra-slim-flat-screen-crt-monitor
slimmer-tube-tvs-to-challenge-flat-panels
16x9 super slim CRT on the left:
https://av.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/20041020/fpd09.jpg
https://av.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/20041020/fpd10.jpg |
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| 9954tony |
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Posted: 05 Jan 2021, 21:12
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The original spec used an HeNe laser that is an even shorter wavelength than a DVD laser: HeNe=632 DVD=650nm. However, the aperture of the lens was also different (larger?). Interestingly to note: The original spot size of the HeNe LD player was smaller (1.5micrometers) than the later IR player spot size (1.6~1.7micrometers). However, the circuitry after the laser pickup in the HeNe players limits frequency response ( and therefore, ultimately, resolution).
This picture, is from the Pioneer Tuning Fork series describing the early HeNe LD spec (1.5micrometer spot size):
https://ready.cs.washington.edu/~tandersn/nobackup/early_tuningfork_LD_track_specs.PNG
You can see from this diagram, that the pits/lands sizes are very small, nearly as small as a DVD, much bigger than a CD, but the track pitch is large, nearly the same as a CD. This works because of the analog nature of LD, the signal is interpreted as an RF signal, so the pits/lands being close together still generates a fluctuating waveform. However, the large spot size of the LD player makes this waveform "less than perfect", and so the reproduced image is not of the same fidelity as the master (lower signal to noise ratio). |
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| 9954tony |
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Posted: 04 Mar 2021, 02:39
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Is there a difference in transfer quality between films? Is there a way or label to know the type of transfer? does this have to do with CLV and CAD?
There can be a huge difference. I've seen it in all formats. "The Abyss" on DVD is crap (LD is better, and no bluray exists). The first "the fifth element" on bluray, was crap. Those are 2 i remember for certain, but there are many more.
Also, from earlier in this thread, this statement was made:
420 scan lines of LD is somewhat equivalent to 420x480
Technically, the term: "scan lines" refers to the vertical resolution, and is always 480 in NTSC. Secondly, the "420" is TVL, which _is not_ equivalent to the digital style Cartesian coordinate system. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Television_lines
TVL is defined as the maximum number of alternating light and dark vertical lines that can be resolved per picture height.[3] A resolution of 400 TVL means that 200 distinct dark vertical lines and 200 distinct white vertical lines can be counted over a horizontal span equal to the height of the picture. For example, on 4 by 3 inches (10.2 cm × 7.6 cm) monitor with 400 TVL, 200 vertical dark lines can be counted over 3 inches
So that's 420*1.3333333 for 560x480
https://www.burglaryalarmsystem.com/technology-news/cctv-tips-tv-lines-analog-vs-pixels-digital-resolution.html
(There's a table a ways down the page that has 420tvl = 560pixels)
I wanted to post this, because it is a common misconception when people come from the digital way of thinking, back to the analog. And i have no reason why they decided to do it this way in the first place. |
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| 9954tony |
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Posted: 09 Mar 2021, 00:39
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this sucks for the common consumer since he buys media assuming it is with a specific standard of quality. I remember viewing one title early on dvd and thinking "Whats different here over dvd?"
must be one of those bad transfers.
yeah. "The Fifth Element" was a favorite movie for me, for a long time. I ordered the bluray right away and was very disappointed.
I'm old enough to have bought my first LD player new in the store. At the time, i had a high end 27" TV. However, i now know that PQ from one LD player to another, varies a lot (i didn't really know that back then). PQ from one DVD player to another, doesn't vary that much. My first LD player was mid grade at best. So when I watched "The Abyss" on LD on my 27" TV, and then "The Abyss" DVD on my TV, in that setup, the DVD looked better. A lot better. The experience was pretty even across the board and my LD player and LDs went into the basement.
That was back in the latter half of the 90s. Fast forward about 20 years, and i have a 120" projection setup. I put in "The Abyss" DVD and it looks horrible. It's a non-anamorphic 2.35:1 title to start. It has severe edge enhancement, which is one of the things that made it "pop" on my 27" TV, but at 120" it just looks like halos around everything. It also suffers from some pretty bad compression artifacts, partly due to grainy film, partly due to bad mastering i think.
So now i have a much better LD player. And some broadcast grade composite decoders and noise reduction HW. The LD looks better on my current setup.
Edge enhancement was something they did on DVDs to make them look better on small screens. And it worked. The problem now, is no one uses small screens anymore! |
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| 9954tony |
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Posted: 19 May 2021, 02:53
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Player: Panasonic LX-900 revision 1995
Capture Device: Hauppauge PVR no longer works for me. For some odd reason it doesn't get along with my rx 5500 xt 4gb. Just recently downgraded from rx 5600 xt 6gb to this card and now Hauppauge has frame drop issues all the time. Even when I had my rx 5600 xt 6g I would have frame drops every so often issues but now it's to the point where the program isn't satisfactory at all. I used Elgato non-hd to do this capture. So don't judge the capture harshly since that limits my bitrate to around 2100 or so when on Hauppauge I was able to get about 5000 or more.
these shots look a bit sharper than your Hauppauge ones. The bitrate isn't the only variable. A lot of composite devices have a low pass filter on the input. My Teranex 2D does this. If i use composite in, the signal is low pass filtered (detail is lost, the picture made softer), but if i use the component in, i retain all the detail. I'd have to see an A/B comparison to be completely sure, but to me, the Elgato seems to look better than the Hauppage. |
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| 9954tony |
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Posted: 31 Jul 2021, 18:07
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I've been working on a "No Solder Setup" using the CX card. I've got fairly decent results with the following:
USD $10 HD CCTV BALUN
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07TBWJB53
USD $11 SMA to BNC (need 2x sma male to bnc female)
https://www.amazon.com/Coaxial-Adapter-Female-Connector-Pieces/dp/B07T8LMHHQ
USD $8 BNC cable
https://www.amazon.com/BNC-Male-RG316-Cable-Inches/dp/B07MB89Z7R
(shortest you can live with)
USD $5 BNC 50ohm terminator
https://www.amazon.com/CESS-Coaxial-Connector-Adapter-Terminator/dp/B01ASF5D6M/
USD $6 BNC T Connector
https://www.amazon.com/Splitter-Connector-Double-T-Shape-Adaptor/dp/B06XHFGVXM
USD $7 3x AA battery holder with switch
https://www.amazon.com/Onwon-Pieces-Battery-Holder-Storage/dp/B07M8HTQ3F
USD $23 OPA657
https://www.ebay.com/itm/272936368386
USD $8 5db attenuator
https://www.ebay.com/itm/184973161399
USD $25 PCIe BNC CX card
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001286595482.html
USD $36 mini circuits BLP-10.7+ low pass filter
https://www.minicircuits.com/WebStore/dashboard.html?model=BLP-10.7%2B
Total without tax and shipping: $139
if you can solder you can save $20 making your own low pass filter (which is shown in the picture below):
USD $14 mini circuits sclf-10.7+
https://www.minicircuits.com/WebStore/dashboard.html?model=SCLF-10.7%2B
DISCLAIMERS:
A) There seems to be as much as a 2db SNR difference between CX cards, even of the same make and model. I've gotten the best results with cards ending in '3' or '1'.
B) My laserdisc player has not been calibrated yet, so SNR could improve if it is not optimally set now.
C) The level adjuster on the OPA657 is not the best value it could be for this use case (5k ohm). As such, the effective range you want to use is roughly 0 - 15%. If you go higher, the amplitude actually starts to go back down again.
D) To use this setup, you set the gain on the 657 knob while playing the strongest part of the disc (go to end of disc, play it, use leveladj and the opa657 knob to get leveladj at about 1 or 2), then go and start the capture.
E) I use a python script that adjusts the CX card gain in real-time while capturing CAV discs (which probably could be improved).
This is the setup, however in this picture, i am using a SCLF-10.7+ that i made instead of BLP-10.7+ and BNC cable.
https://ready.cs.washington.edu/~tandersn/nobackup/1280xno_solder.jpg.jpg
https://ready.cs.washington.edu/~tandersn/nobackup/1280xno_solder_2.jpg
The battery packs must be wired like this for the amp (not shown in picture above) to have -4.5/0/+4.5:
https://ready.cs.washington.edu/~tandersn/nobackup/batterieswired.png
This is the GGV1069 full disc readout from this setup (this is using the BLP-10.7+ and short BNC cable NOT the SCLF-10.7+):
https://ready.cs.washington.edu/~tandersn/nobackup/BlueCX3_NoCapNoTerm_8fsc_Balun_opa657_5db_blp107+_ex50t_ggv1069.PNG |
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| 9954tony |
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Posted: 28 Sep 2021, 04:27
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Thanks for the clarification. I posted my process because I don't have the resources to try the full domesday method, and I feel that the oversampling and processing I perform is certainly more than acceptable, so I thought it could help others in the same situation.
I would certainly love to attempt better conversions, but I don't have the finances to obtain more LD players (my only working player is a CLD-D606). If there are better ways to convert from that player, I'd certainly like to hear about them.
You may have it as best as you can with what you have. I should have said: "most blackmagic cards low pass filter the COMPOSITE input", i don't know if they low pass filter the svideo input. So by using SVIDEO out of the player, you may not be hindered by that resolution softening of the BM card. Or you could have a card that doesn't cause it to soften. Only way to tell for sure is to try it both ways (composite and svideo) with a high resolution test pattern and also compare to what you see with your eyes when it is connected directly to the TV. I noticed a higher resolution when I plugged directly into my TV rather than my BM cards/devices, and then it was seconded by another user i was talking with. The svideo out of my 1000u is _poor_ quality so i don't use it, but the 1000u has a nice high resolution composite output.
You can get a decent ld-decode RF capture method setup for under probably $75 if you can solder. under $150 if you can't. (using CX card) |
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| 9954tony |
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Posted: 21 Jan 2022, 22:08
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What is there worth preserving that was released on HD-DVD?
I can understand LD as you have something like Daicon or Goodbye New York as they have never been released on anything else unless you are OK
streaming them on Youtube.
it's just the cost of bluray replacement really, i guess. If you figure $15 average cost of replacement bluray title, times 150, that's $2250 USD.
I've heard some talk that certain titles of HDDVDs are "truer to source" than the bluray version, but i don't know how much so.
I'm not buying anymore HDDVDs, haven't bought any in long long time. I was mostly an "early adopter". |
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| 9954tony |
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Posted: 27 Jul 2023, 22:52
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Thanks!
Curious to know now if AC-3 and DTS are effectively decoded now, or if there are plans to decode them in the future.
https://github.com/happycube/ld-decode/issues/622
looks like AC3 is done, although still some minor issues on some discs.
https://github.com/happycube/ld-decode/pull/772
and DTS as well.
DTS also mentioned on the wiki https://github.com/happycube/ld-decode/wiki/ld-process-efm
The ld-decode wiki hasn't been updated, but --AC3 is shown in the help: $ld-decode --help
usage: ld-decode [-h] [--start file-location] [--length frames] [--seek frame] [--PAL] [--NTSC] [--NTSCJ] [-m mtf] [--MTF_offset mtf_offset] [--noAGC] [--noDOD]
[--noEFM] [--preEFM] [--disable_analog_audio] [--AC3] [--start_fileloc start_fileloc] [--ignoreleadout] [--verboseVITS] [--RF_TBC] [--lowband]
[--NTSC_color_notch_filter] [--V4300D_notch_filter] [-d deemp_adjust] [--deemp_low deemp_low] [--deemp_high deemp_high] [-t threads] [-f FREQ]
[--analog_audio_frequency AFREQ] [--video_bpf_high FREQ] [--video_lpf FREQ] [--video_lpf_order VLPF_ORDER] [--audio_filterwidth FREQ]
infile outfile
Extracts audio and video from raw RF laserdisc captures
positional arguments:
infile source file
outfile base name for destination files
options:
-h, --help show this help message and exit
--start file-location, -s file-location
rough jump to frame n of capture (default is 0)
--length frames, -l frames
limit length to n frames
--seek frame, -S frame
seek to frame n of capture
--PAL, -p, --pal source is in PAL format
--NTSC, -n, --ntsc source is in NTSC format
--NTSCJ, -j source is in NTSC-J (IRE 0 black) format
-m mtf, --MTF mtf mtf compensation multiplier
--MTF_offset mtf_offset
mtf compensation offset
--noAGC Disable AGC
--noDOD disable dropout detector
--noEFM Disable EFM front end
--preEFM Write filtered but otherwise pre-processed EFM data
--disable_analog_audio, --disable_analogue_audio, --daa
Disable analog(ue) audio decoding
--AC3 Enable AC3 audio decoding (NTSC only)
--start_fileloc start_fileloc
jump to precise sample # in the file
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