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| pbiancardi |
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Posted: 12 Jun 2020, 11:51
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So it took over a year and four players purchased but I finally have a perfectly working HIL-C1. Lucky #4 unexpectedly came in mint condition with a pretty professional looking AC-3 mod and factory remote.
My buddy Bill Deleo who gets all the credit for repairing this one has successfully built a Sony calibration jig so we can now scope calibrate both HIL-C1 and HIL-C2EX.
What we have figured out is that there may be a trick to swapping the laser assembly out, there is an angle that appears to be factory set that *might* have something to do with the issue. We have verified that the other players I have work by swapping in the laser from lucky #4 (first one to come that had a non dead laser). I have (2) NOS lasers that we have not been able to get working so they were either DOA or there is a trick to swapping them out. I also have (2) more NOS that will be tested soon.
The quality of the image coming from this player is second (and its a very arguable second) only to HLD-X0, no other Pioneer player can come close to this Sony.
https://i.postimg.cc/hjyTYdLN/1.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/prmzMLkr/2.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/15x27nv8/3.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/wThPCqr0/4.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/TPq3hvh9/5.jpg |
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| pbiancardi |
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Posted: 12 Jun 2020, 14:51
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forper wrote: Oh so f***en sweet. Congratulations.
Makes me sad that a working C1 or C2EX is such a reach. Well done though, you have overcome.
I dislike Pioneer and would love to go a pure Sony route for LD perfection.
C2EX pop up all the time and there are still NOS lasers so that is well within reach. |
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| pbiancardi |
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Posted: 01 Jul 2020, 17:14
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| Finally got to test out the Muse capabilities with this player and it does very well (much better than X9). Tested using fully recapped MSC-4000 and the results are outstanding. |
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| pbiancardi |
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Posted: 26 Apr 2021, 00:23
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I finally made something I find useable and presentable. I gutted an old Faroudja processor and put the eval board, Raspberry Pi (to auto run script), HDCP stripper (my HTPC has an issue with it), and power supply all inside.
Everything works with a front mounted switch and I also wired in the front "on" LED light and replaced the stock (loud) fan with a silent Noctua.
This is all in one solution, front switch powers on eval and Raspberry Pi which runs the eval board script with no user interaction required.
Eval 480i -> Crystalio II 480p -> HTPC / MadVR 2160p -> Projector
https://i.postimg.cc/TPhcKxnw/0425211502.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/Z558Qm7c/0424210637.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/wj4X8rnd/0424211355a.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/NMmmXjFg/0424211355b.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/Jh9jtk16/0424211355f.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/HLJQp2C8/0424211358.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/VvPT9vF4/0424211408.jpg |
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| pbiancardi |
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Posted: 02 May 2021, 14:43
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Not on FB.
That is both good news and bad on the pickups then: They are repairable, but time is of the essence if they have not been recapped.
I'll be pulling it and ordering replacement caps. I think repairing the corrosion will be the hard part though.
I think my buddy also removed the lens and cleaned it (there is some sort of "cover" that gets cloudy, way beyond my skillset. |
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| pbiancardi |
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Posted: 28 May 2021, 14:25
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| pbiancardi |
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Posted: 16 Jul 2021, 17:28
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Here is a new one, we talk so much about comb filters, upscaling, and processing in general when trying to improve the PQ of LD but we never really talk about the quality of the displays themselves.
I have a JVC-DLA RS2000 4k projector and I just added a Panamorph DCR anamorphic lens which makes a huge difference for 2.35 LD's.
This new generation of anamorphic lenses works by having the picture upscaled to 4096x2160p (17:9 native resolution of the projector) by either projector or external processor (I am using MadVR HTPC) then having the lens squeeze the picture back down to proper 2.35:1.
While not adding any actual additional resolution it does add a lot of pixel density because you are now using 2,000,000 or so pixels that would normally be completely wasted with black bars around the picture (all of the pixels are now used and concentrated into the 2.35:1 frame).
I think I have basically topped out the real time processing of LD with my Eval board / MadVR setup but this was a huge step up on the display end of things. Phone camera can not really show but it really is an amazing picture, even by my somewhat high standards -
https://i.postimg.cc/XJZKt65s/FB.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/3rvCB7YR/FB2.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/Kvh7pV85/FB3.jpg |
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| pbiancardi |
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Posted: 18 Jul 2021, 15:30
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All 3 pictures have horizontal lines, why is that???
Also I do hope all who are into LD know that when you use any device whether or not its an expensive device, you will always lose detail.
I'm not talking about lens, I'm talking about internal digital chip inside machine device zooming.
For example if I use my low budget priced projector, when compared to biancardi's setup looks like its from CVS.
I have a zoom feature on the projector, if I use that the picture gets slightly blown out and less detail.
If I can move the projector to a better position and just use the native resolution its miles better but the throw needs to be different.
In all honestly your LD image should look the same like it did back in the day when you had a mid to high end 27" or larger CRT as it would
on your new LED, LCD, projector or whatever modern device you are using, if it looks worse you either have a bad setup or
you need to adjust your settings.
So those horizontal lines are still a wonder why you get them on all 3 images when you really shouldn't be.
Is this due to the 4K? I don't have 4K my eyes are bad enough at my age that it doesn't get better.
bian-disclamer, I'm not trying to bash, I'm trying to ask questions and learn or I'm trying to post stuff I remember reading or have had
experience with on what equipment I could afford rather than 25-40K worth of equipment.
I think at tops my gear was in the 2000.00 range for all, TV, player, amp etc. I've changed gear over the years, not as much as bian but
also have read stuff and actually grew up with my father buying the LD player and few years later owning a superlflat Panasonic TV around 1992 or around there.
And that TV was the highest end from the actual time and ran LD through that and it was fookingamazing for the gear at the time.
GAOO Superflat System Panasonic TV (1993) [PA93-33P]
I'm not trying to win any competition on who had the best gear, I didn't my father did but we didn't have much so it all went into that TV if I remember right.
The frame is paused (actually still stepped) which is causing the lines. My Sony has a very clean direct out which doesn't get much if any digital manipulation so a paused frame looks like that. My intention is not to demonstrate the quality of the picture (I don't have a nice enough camera to do that). My intention is to show the different picture sizes from the same location and how my setup gets the picture from picture 1 to picture 3.
I can assure you I am not blind and do not have lines in my picture lol -
https://i.postimg.cc/BbPjWJGv/0718210934a-HDR.jpg |
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| pbiancardi |
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Posted: 20 Jul 2021, 12:20
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Yeah, there are several test patterns for the various settings. I have gone over the manual and the Curt Palme startup guide ad nauseam. The forums over there are not helpful. Everyone just accuses you of not reading the manual and offers zero advice. I'll just keep fiddling with it or go blind trying.
I sort of remember reading about some type of test screen that you can get from the internal, have you done that??
I know its not easy but worth it after its all done, wish I had one but then again I've been happy with my DLP which is decent for price.
I did it once and it was kind of a bear. I think the basic concept is you start with green only lit up get it straight and centered where you want it then add blue and line up with green then add red and line up with both. The concept is simple but it can be very difficult to do until you get the hang of it. The other thing I remember is you can set it up for widescreen if you want, it will just use a rectangular portion of the lenses instead of a square.
I am going to be in Austin this Friday - Sunday and probably have some time on Friday if you want a second set of eyes (I am not an expert but I have done it before). PM me if you are interested.
I remember the picture looking amazing -
https://i.postimg.cc/xdytC2t6/CRT.jpg |
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| pbiancardi |
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Posted: 09 Aug 2021, 13:24
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| I was going to say outrageous but then I started doing the math and price seems reasonable if not great. Problem being who in the heck has or is going to spend that amount all at once. |
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| pbiancardi |
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Posted: 02 Oct 2021, 01:41
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It's essentially the eval board but in a convenient package not requiring a PC or Raspberry pi to control. It's also much better at deinterlacing. Bunch of us got them for $35, guy was selling 15 or so of them.
Also it can output 480i over HDMI so paired with a Lumagen 2143 you basically have a 2144. |
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| pbiancardi |
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Posted: 08 Oct 2021, 01:28
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So , anyone here both both the Kramer and the Radiance 2144?
care to comment on differences , pos. and neg. on Composite processing?
someone offered me a 2144 but if the Kramer is better at Composite I'll not go the Radiance route
As far as comb filter goes its the same. The Kramer cannot scale near as well though so if you want the best possible performance either 2144 or Kramer outputting 480i into a Lumagen / MadVR / other high quality scaler.
it has been said that the 2144 does not have all the controls for the comb filter settings than it could have.
so, does the Kramer unit offer more settings to get the best performance out of composite inputs?
I do already have a Radiance XS+ and do not necessarily need a 2144.
will get my Kramer next week.
a 2144 is being offered to me right now.
Thanks for the info
You can only change the comb filter registers with the eval board not the Kramer or 2144.
All we did was change the setting for eval to be slightly sharper which you may or may not like anyway. If you have a Kramer and feed 480i to your Lumagen I'd say your going to get about the best available results of anything. |
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| pbiancardi |
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Posted: 21 Dec 2021, 11:19
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Seems like a lot of work to add back something that never existed in the first place. Scanlines NEVER existed on film they were just a technological limitation of the home equipment at the time. I understand nostalgia but for the life of me cannot figure out why people go to such lengths to actively denegrate their picture.
It always seems to be the new LD fans who have some fond rememberance of a crappy picture from their youth but never remember that LD was supposed to push the boundary of home theater. |
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| pbiancardi |
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Posted: 21 Dec 2021, 15:41
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I just upgraded my screen to 130", now this is Laserdisc the way it was meant to be -
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| pbiancardi |
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Posted: 21 Dec 2021, 17:44
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Wait a minute, I saw this post before but didn't really understand it so I did a search on what a scanline is.
Why the hell would you add scanlines to your LD image at all?
I hated the scanline on my old videogames and was super happy when I bought my first arcade machine that didn't have them due to the resolution of the
monitor being different than our home CRTs at the time.
Is this like getting a CD player and having a filter to had skips and pops to your music when you playback so it sounds like a record?
LOL you think you are joking but you aren't - https://mynoise.net/NoiseMachines/dustyScratchedVinylNoiseGenerator.php |
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| pbiancardi |
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Posted: 07 Feb 2022, 15:30
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You guys need to get with the program, that is THE king of LD repair, if he's selling it you can bet it's top notch.
The king of LD repair lives a half hour away from me and I've never heard of him?
My only point is there is a whole new world of LD people out there pushing the boundaries of repair and modern system integration but a lot of people aren't following along for whatever reason (don't like FB???). These guys go way beyond minor repairs, they are full on board level technicians that can diagnose and repair faults most never dreamed possible (rebuilding "dead" lasers for example). To me this should be interesting for LD collectors who would like their equipment to work for the long haul.....
If I wanted to buy an X0 you can bet damn well it would be from the person that can repair any fault with it (even if it was at a markup over the Yahoo Japan price). Same person that got me a perfectly calibrated HIL-C1 and MDP-999 (you want to see complicated look inside one of those) sold this X0. |
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| pbiancardi |
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Posted: 09 Mar 2022, 13:20
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I decided to test this out based on a lot of positive feedback people seem to be giving this and other retro gaming devices for Laserdisc. As you can see the results are less than stellar and pretty much as expected (though the scanlines are at least a cool novelty that hides most of the issues). These are direct captures not camera and are zoomed in to "pixel peep" to highlight the differences. The color differences are because captures are taken before picture hits the calibrated display (and I didnt really spend much time calibrating the RetroTink). The RetroTink is set to its motion adaptive deinterlacing mode.
https://i.postimg.cc/KvksQFz5/275291656-4906678109446406-1273935109503637686-n.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/QMs4XTq6/275423775-4906678382779712-6048369681599235626-n.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/1zHW43Cy/275307141-4906678696113014-6862693924401128468-n.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/c4pkbjtG/275301400-4906677369446480-2367962199853531678-n.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/2Sn9Rwnb/275346423-4906677776113106-4157157406363316292-n.jpg |
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| pbiancardi |
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Posted: 10 Mar 2022, 13:11
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cplusplus wrote: The 5X-Pro is way too expensive for those results.
In fairness it is not designed for Laserdisc or video at all. I was just curious based on people saying it was good for LD so figured I would take a look. |
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| pbiancardi |
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Posted: 23 Aug 2022, 13:31
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New option if anyone is interested.
The MadVR Envy has very advanced AI based motion adaptive deinterlacing which HTPC does not have.
This makes 480i from Kramer 773 to MadVR Envy basically the best at this point. You get the near perfect deinterlacing (better than Lumagen / DVDO / Faroudja) as well as the proven best NGU (AI based) upscaling. I didn't even buy the Envy for Laserdisc but quite ironically I found improvements where I was not even looking.
The other amazing thing with the Envy is the AI based noise reduction that can work wonders for LD. Here is a quick video just showing me going through the steps of NR intensity - https://www.dropbox.com/s/x325dvd2yujad30/0809221839.mp4?dl=0
https://i.postimg.cc/xd1GQn5T/0811221856a-HDR.jpg |
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| pbiancardi |
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Posted: 30 Sep 2022, 17:06
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This is not exactly new information but it has become much more interesting. Several Onkyo AVR's have the ADV7844 comb filter (newer than ADV7842 from Kramer 773 and Eval Board and ADV7800 from Lumagen 2124 / 2144).
What makes this interesting now is I have identified several models which all appear to suffer from the same DSP chip issue which causes a “no sound” fault where the AVR loses the ability to output sound but……can still process video. These three models appear to be plentiful on eBay all with the same issue which makes them very cheap (under $100.00) to purchase and use as video processors for Laserdisc.
I have yet to test these but have researched old posts and videos, all of which seem to agree that the issue causes the amp section to not power on but the video side to work perfectly.
I am waiting on one of each (609 I got for $100.35 shipped, 709 I got for $66.96 shipped and 809 I got for $137.35 shipped). I will do testing next week and start to report back but I see no reason these should not work really well for Laserdisc, especially the 809 which has an HQV Vida chip specifically for upscaling low res content to 1080p. The obvious downside is big and bulky AVR which is only useful for video processing. At a time when all of the ADV7842 options are expensive / hard to get, this should be a cheap alternative.
Onkyo TX-NR609 / Onkyo TX-NR709
- Video path according to service manual composite -> ADV7844 -> Kyoto-G2H -> HDMI out
- ADV7844 is the excellent comb filter for LD https://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/ADV7844.pdf
- Kyoto-G2H Qdeo2 is used for upscaling and can also be found in Oppo BDP-103 and BDP-105 Blu-Ray players
- Can do proper LD zoom
- Can upscale to 4k (3840 x 2160)
- Composite / SVideo output is pure passthrough, no processing
Onkyo TX-NR809
- Video path according to service manual composite -> ADV7844 -> VHD1900 -> Kyoto-G2H -> HDMI out
- ADV7844 is the excellent comb filter for LD https://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/ADV7844.pdf
- VHD1900 (https://www.renesas.com/us/en/document/fly/idtflyr-vida-099) is HQV Vida which does upscale from 480i to 1080p and then Kyoto-G2H Qdeo2 does upscale from 1080p to 4k.
- HQV Vida in this model adds things like advanced noise reduction and picture enhancements which could make this higher quality upscaling than the NR609 / NR709
- Can do proper LD zoom
- Can upscale to 4k (3840 x 2160) and does so in two steps using two different video processors for maximum quality HQV Vida 480i -> 1080p and Qdeo2 1080p -> 4k
- Composite / SVideo output is pure passthrough, no processing
Temporary repair seems possible if you want to use the audio side also - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeboYI2qzhE&t=441s
Service manuals for video path info - https://www.dropbox.com/sh/3m0m6ag2awho36u/AADeibtR7XnlDFh8VUaV-kNwa?dl=0 |
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| pbiancardi |
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Posted: 03 Oct 2022, 12:56
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I received the 609 and the 809 and did some testing over the weekend. Both of these were advertised on eBay as "no sound" issue.
809 - works exactly as I theorized, the audio is dead but the video portion works perfectly
609 - completely dead, powers on but no audio or video
This means that purchasing a cheap "no sound" one is a gamble. My thought is that someone tried to repair the 609 I have by reflowing the chip but overheated it and killed the HDMI board entirely but I cannot know for sure. Once I get the 709 in I will have a better idea of the odds of getting one that works for video. I guess the wildcard will always be did the unit get shelved when it stopped working or did someone just say heck with it and indiscriminately fire up the board hoping to fix it? I know the 809 I have was just shelved per the owner, no amateur repairs attempted.
As far as picture quality goes so far 809 is top notch. I use MadVR Envy for upscaling so that does not really matter to me so much but if someone wants an all in one solution to go from 480i composite input to 1080p HDMI output the 809 would be a really good solution. Onkyo vs Kramer 773 for comb filtering would be the same but for deinterlacing Onkyo (HQV Vida) may have a slight edge and for upscaling I think Onkyo has a clear advantage. I am not a huge fan of the Kramer, to me it is more of a presentation device than one designed specifically for home theater. We don't really know what processor Kramer is using, we do know Onkyo 809 is using HQV Vida.
I did some comparisons of 480p output vs 1080p output vs 1080i output on the Onkyo and on my specific setup I will choose between 1080p and 1080i. The Envy picks quality of algorithms according to available GPU power and 480p60 -> 4k60 is very GPU intensive so if I can send it 1080p60 to start I end up with higher quality results (because Envy can use better algorithms and HQV Vida is doing a good job from 480p - 1080p). The Envy also has AI based motion adaptive deinterlacing (described as similar to Faroudja DCDI but using AI) which is really good so 1080i from the Onkyo may be a good compromise to take a little of the workload off of Envy but still allow it to shine with what it does best.
Onkyo 4k output is a no go for LD, it can only do 4k24, 4k25, or 4k30 so unless you can feed it a 24p signal its no good. There is no way to IVTC LD in real time nor can the Onkyo do any sort of frame blending to force film mode onto the 480i60 LD signal.
More to come, hopefully I get a working 709 and can see how that does with upscaling (no HQV Vida in the mid range 709). |
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| pbiancardi |
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Posted: 04 Oct 2022, 13:53
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One of the things that really intrigues me is the ADV7842 / 7800 devices (Kramer, Lumagen, Eval Board) all appear to cut off information at the top of the picture. I always assumed this was issue with the ADV chips since all devices that use those chips look similar. When I looked at the Onkyo (ADV7844) I noticed the picture was not cut off at the top. I have been debating whether the picture on the other devices was just shifted up or if there was actual missing information.
I think I have proven that the other devices actually clip picture information. Here is both captures overlaid onto one another, when lining up the bottom of the picture everything matches perfectly but by the time we get to the top the Kramer has gone crazy and cut off picture information (even looks like the right side is cut off also). I do not have Eval or Lumagen here to test but I assume they would have same result.
Not sure if this is hardware or software related and who corrected this (Onkyo or ADV), but I think we can say the Kramer, Eval, and Lumagen all cut off information. If the picture was just shifted I should be able to shift it back and have everything line up.
https://i.postimg.cc/Df4mybyJ/TV-CAM-device-20221003-210454-317.png |
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| pbiancardi |
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Posted: 08 Nov 2022, 20:44
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Quick Update:
The Kramer VP-730 arrived yesterday.
It was very easy to hook up and get it up and running.
First impression is that there is a very noticeable improvement in color and clarity.
It didn't come with a remote, but I was able to easily access the remote functions through my universal remote.
I'm using a logitec Harmony remote - very surprised that it had no problem connecting at all.
There are a few things in my set up I want to play around with and I have a lot to learn about the settings, etc.
It cost me around $60.00 on ebay + shipping.
So far it was worth every penny.
1st set up question:
What is the recommended picture resolution setting?
Kramer is brutal at scaling so ideally you would want to output 480i/p and let something better do the scaling, here are upscaling test pattern for Kramer vs Onkyo vs MadVR -
https://i.postimg.cc/zv68tYY1/Kramer.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/gJMYh6Mj/MadVR.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/mZ5L2Cz6/Onkyo.jpg |
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| pbiancardi |
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Posted: 21 Feb 2023, 14:30
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noogie-man wrote: pbiancardi wrote: I have two words for anyone still using Lumagen products - MadVR Envy. what is this device, what does it do? what does it improve? where do I buy one?
It is hands down the best video processor ever made - the upscaling blows Lumagen completely out of the water.
madvrenvy.com |
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Thanks list
