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 Post subject: Final Approach (1991) does it have CDS audio?
PostPosted: 23 Aug 2023, 10:33 
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Hello!

I'm just wondering does anyone know if the Laserdisc for Final Approach uses the original theatrical CDS audio track?
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 Post subject: Re: Final Approach (1991) does it have CDS audio?
PostPosted: 23 Aug 2023, 16:23 
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Oh man, haven't heard of that title in a few years.
Laserbite used to watch the s**t out of that film, posted a bunch of info about it.
Try to use the search and see if he posted anything, I'll see what I can find out.
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 Post subject: Re: Final Approach (1991) does it have CDS audio?
PostPosted: 24 Aug 2023, 16:34 
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Thanks for the info. I had a look around and found positive comments on the sound on the Laserdisc. I'm going to try and get a copy I think. Is there a list of titles that have the CDS track on them? By CDS obviously I mean the 4.0/5.1 etc as CDS wasn't a 'format' as such.

I heard the Dick Tracy track this week (I got it on the DVD release) and it sounds absolutely fantastic.
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 Post subject: Re: Final Approach (1991) does it have CDS audio?
PostPosted: 24 Aug 2023, 19:08 
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Yeah I just bought a copy, didn't have it and don't see a DVD release, may not have searched long enough.
But I took the risk to get it, not sure if it will have that CDS on the LD and actually never heard of it before until you posted it so I'm sort of excited
even if I don't have a surround setup.
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 Post subject: Re: Final Approach (1991) does it have CDS audio?
PostPosted: 24 Aug 2023, 22:46 
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I got a copy on the way too. Good job you didn't spend long looking for a DVD or Blu Ray as there isn't one. It's only on Laserdisc and VHS. The Laserdisc is in the correct AR, the VHS is P&S and HiFi Stereo only so probably not worth hunting down.

The LD is reportedly superb on the audio front. I'm guessing because it was a CDS reference title on its theatrical release and hopefully that is what we will find on the Laserdisc. Supposedly its a good film too so I'm looking forward to watching it.

I'm hoping to collect all of the films that used CDS. There isn't many and the ones I do have so far are all superb. Dick Tracy on DVD is an absolute audio treat. Terminator 2 is good too, the Artisan R1 DVD, but I think Dick Tracy beats it. The Doors is another I have but haven't received yet.

Not too many more to get. :)
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 Post subject: Re: Final Approach (1991) does it have CDS audio?
PostPosted: 25 Aug 2023, 00:06 
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:lol: After my last post I did a search and could only find DVD-R copies.

Did search after your first post about the CDS and its interesting, sort of remember seeing Dick Tracy in the theaters but didn't know anything about the audio,
also it was a dumpy theater in NYC, I doubt it would have had the audio for the CDS.

Big thanks again to you ted, you post a bunch of weird stuff that I haven't seen or heard of or get me at the right time to buy an LD when I've decided
for the past year to never get another LD again :lol:
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 Post subject: Re: Final Approach (1991) does it have CDS audio?
PostPosted: 25 Aug 2023, 10:01 
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That's the fun thing about obsolete media, digging up all the curios! :D
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 Post subject: Re: Final Approach (1991) does it have CDS audio?
PostPosted: 25 Aug 2023, 12:18 
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OK, I give up. Is this really a format or a gag based on a really hard to Google name?
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 Post subject: Re: Final Approach (1991) does it have CDS audio?
PostPosted: 25 Aug 2023, 14:21 
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signofzeta wrote:
OK, I give up. Is this really a format or a gag based on a really hard to Google name?



Image

Oh certainly not a joke, it's the real deal. It was a sound system from Kodak that made it's debut in 1990 with Dick Tracy. Only a handful of films used CDS. I think the problem was reliability. Steven Speilberg apparently attended a test screening of a film (not sure what film, it might have been Dick Tracy I'm not sure) to see if he could be persuaded to use CDS (not to be confused with Sony's DSC system) for his 1991 film Hook. The test screening equipment broke down and he walked out and said he wasn't going to use it.

Image

It's essentially 5.1 (at least that's as far as it got, or something like that, it was never fully maxed out I don't think) but lossless and (for 1990) the highest bitrate of it's era by some margin. Anything made for CDS was apparently sonically excellent. Which is why Final Approach, an obscure 1991 film with a very limited US theatrical release) received so many plaudits for it's incredible audio. I'm hoping it made it's way to the Laserdisc release because it's not available elsewhere except for VHS but I have no idea what that release would be like from an audio perspective. Video-wise it's P&S, with the Laserdisc being OAR so again it's the release of choice. There simply isn't anything better out there (perhaps a 35mm or 70mm print and a working CDS system I guess) other than DVD-R bootlegs.

Full specsheet is here (from In70mm):

Image

As you can see, it was leagues ahead of anything else at the time. Just a shame it didn't catch on. The full list of CDS films is as follows:

Title    Released    Notes

Sounds Like The Real World      ??.??.????      Released in 35mm and 70mm CDS
Dick Tracy      15.06.1990      Released in 70mm CDS and 70mm magnetic
Days of Thunder      27.06.1990      35mm anamorphic and released in 70mm CDS and 70mm magnetic
Flatliners      10.08.1990      Released in 35mm in Europe
Edward Scissorhands      07.12.1990      Released in 35mm CDS, 70mm CDS and 70mm magnetic
The Doors      01.03.1991      Released in 35mm CDS and 70mm magnetic
Hudson Hawk      24.05.1991      Released in 35mm CDS
Terminator 2: Judgement Day      03.07.1991      Super 35 released in 35mm CDS, 70mm CDS and 70mm magnetic
For The Boys      22.11.1991      35mm wide screen
Final Approach      ??.11.1991      35mm anamorphic and released in 35mm CDS
Universal Soldier      03.07.1992      Shown in CDS in Kinepolis, Bruxelles, Belgium      Released in 35mm CDS



The ones I know of at the moment are:

  • Dick Tracy - All DVD releases (the US/CA R1 has a bonus DTS track but the 5.1 on all releases is excellent), possibly the Blu Ray but I cannot confirm it. I did try the Apple TV version and it sounds a lot narrower, nowhere near the clarity of the DVD version.
  • Final Approach - The USA Laserdisc supposedly has it/uses it. I'll find out soon enough. The VHS I don't know, it's HiFi though.
  • Terminator 2: Judgement Day - The only release that has this is the R1 first run DVD from Artisan. Not sure about LD, far as I know no LD's have it. I have this DVD. It sounds phenomenal (but Dick Tracy is better imho).
  • The Doors - The special edition USA Laserdiscs have it apparently. The 15th Anniversary R1 DVD from Lionsgate has it. Everything else after it has been remixed/fiddled with.
  • For The Boys - Laserdisc might have it? Not sure. The DVD releases have it. Possibly the Blu Ray.
  • Universal Soldier - The new 4K and Blu Ray remasters from Studio Canal allegedly have it. It's a give away due to an audio wobble in the opening company logo credits apparently. Anything before that I have no idea.
  • Edward Scissorhands - Supposedly the DVD has it as it's a 4.0 track. I cannot confirm this though. The Blu Ray is the same it seems.
  • Hudson Hawk - The Blu Ray from Signal One is 4.0 and has it. Anything before that I don't know.
  • Flatliners - I don't know yet.
  • Days of Thunder - I don't know yet.

Proof:

Edward Scissorhands end credits:

Image


For The Boys end credits:

Image


Final Approach end credits:

Image


Terminator 2 end credits:

Image


Image


More information on Terminator 2 engagements here:

https://thedigitalbits.com/columns/history-legacy--showmanship/remembering-terminator2-judgment-day-25th/Page-2
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 Post subject: Re: Final Approach (1991) does it have CDS audio?
PostPosted: 25 Aug 2023, 14:59 
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Interesting. Yes, I guess it must have been really hot stuff in theaters for like 4 years.

I don’t think it’s possible to put exactly that onto an LD though in which case I’m not sure the magic is going to be there.
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 Post subject: Re: Final Approach (1991) does it have CDS audio?
PostPosted: 25 Aug 2023, 15:23 
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Yeah that's why I'm not hedging my bets for Final Approach LD to have the CDS track 'exactly' per se. But from what I understand, whatever is on that disc does use the CDS master for whatever is on that Laserdisc. Which is probably why it reportedly sounds so fantastic.

We'll see. Whatever the outcome, it's either the Laserdisc or the VHS if you want to own the film, it's not available anywhere else. No idea why.

The DVD's definitely do have the CDS tracks. I guess being an entriely digital process from source to disc authoring? I don't know enough to comment for certain, my knowledge just isn't anywhere near as storng as other folks here. LDDB member sdraper was the one that got me in to CDS through his YouTube channel. I saw T2 Artisan there and managed to find a copy for a nice price. Then Dick Tracy I got for next to nothing so I could test the DVD before trying to get the expensive Blu Ray. Dick Tracy blew my socks off. The sheer width and separation of the sound on that DVD (taking format limitations in to consideration) is quite something. The Club Ritz shootout is superb, but there's a better demo. The opening scene of the film in the Club Ritz, with one of the bosses slurping oysters. Madonna is singing in the background, but the boss guy keeps slurpring up oysters. Each slurp is perfectly separated and ripples out of the centre channel very clearly while the busy background music sits very comfortably around the other channels.

I've not watched T2 or Dick Tracy entirely in CDS yet, but at the moment I prefer Dick Tracy, but both discs are impressive imho. I'm excited to see what the other films might sound like. Especially Final Approach. It even sounds good in compressed YouTube Potatovision.
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 Post subject: Re: Final Approach (1991) does it have CDS audio?
PostPosted: 25 Aug 2023, 16:15 
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Just by way of update. I stand corrected on Hudson Hawk. All DVD and Blu Ray releases are Dolby Stereo 2.0. However some releases have a Russian 4.0 track on them.

Edit:

Some conflicting information on the Blu Ray. Apparently it does NOT use the discrete 5.1 CDS theatrical track, no home video release ever has allegedly, but instead features a 4.0 surround track matrixes to 2.0. More here:

https://thedigitalbits.com/item/hudson- ... no-2022-bd

In essence you are probably best off not worrying about getting Hudson Hawk for the CDS track until a new release, if any, emerges that uses the CDS audio and states that clearly. So for now, if you want the film, any version will do I suppose.
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 Post subject: Re: Final Approach (1991) does it have CDS audio?
PostPosted: 26 Aug 2023, 13:16 
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Picked up a USA Laserdisc copy of Hudson Hawk there just to see what the story is with it. Unfortunately none of the releases seem to be in OAR, only the French release. Not a big deal, I just want to check out the sound quality and it was cheap-ish enough.

The Blu Ray is definitely matrixed 4.0 to 2.0 though. I'm not quite sure how that works, can someone explain it a bit better for me? It's clearly not going to be the CDS track tucked away in there as it's not a discrete 5.1 track but what's the 4.0 > 2.0 about? Just matrixed in to 2.0 so that a relevant AVR decoder could play back in quadrophonic surround if possible? That's Pro Logic though right? Argh, this stuff melts my head when audio gets messed around with!
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 Post subject: Re: Final Approach (1991) does it have CDS audio?
PostPosted: 26 Aug 2023, 13:48 
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Here's a frustratingly ambiguous Wikipedia quote that could potentially explain the 4.0 mystery:

Quote:
Not all films with CDS soundtracks used all 5.1 channels; some, such as Edward Scissorhands (1990), used only the 4 channels that were supported by Dolby Stereo.

Whoever wrote this didn't site a source, so it might not even be correct, but if Hudson Hawk is included in "some," that would be consistent with 4.0 being the most channels that have shown up on home video.
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 Post subject: Re: Final Approach (1991) does it have CDS audio?
PostPosted: 29 Dec 2023, 21:53 
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I own the ac3 version of T2 and I'm pretty sure it is CDS due to the split second/echo surrounds. The dvd in the steel tin uses the same mix
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