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rein-o
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Post subject: Re: So confused about surround sound on LaserDisc. Posted: 02 Jul 2018, 01:27 |
Jedi Master |
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Joined: 03 May 2004, 19:05 Posts: 8119 Location: Dullaware Has thanked: 1228 times Been thanked: 851 times
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Oh boy, welcome to the world of surround sound on LD. From what I remember you need to connect the red and white and then select the pro logic settings to get the surround sound, but remember you will get dolby surround which was a 4 channel setup on some older discs. Front left, right center and rear. The optical will be the same just on the optical out, but you need to make sure your disc is newer to use the digital channels. You shouldn't need any other gear unless you are doing AC-3 which I feel is not worth it. Keep us posted on what happens. There is a site http://www.mindspring.com/~laserdisc-forever/ which should help too.
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signofzeta
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Post subject: Re: So confused about surround sound on LaserDisc. Posted: 02 Jul 2018, 02:54 |
Jedi Knight |
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Joined: 14 Jan 2010, 09:44 Posts: 6006 Location: Ann Arbor Has thanked: 1306 times Been thanked: 1116 times
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You couldn’t have really looked all that hard...
If the disc says Dolby Stereo or Surround whatever, the pre-DD/DTS style, then they use matrix surround. You can use optical, SPDIF, or analog stereo, the settings are all the same. You either use Pro Logic or a further development of it like Logic 7 or Neo 6. As far as I know every surround receiver ever made will do this but then the new stuff is dropping so many features I don’t know what’s left on them anymore.
There are no settings on the player to this. It’s a completely passive thing. As long as the player is playing a matrixed surround track and you’ve hooked a surround receiver to its stereo output (digital or analog) then it’s working. If you go through the various mono modes (juat left or right) then it won’t work from the analogs. The digital outputs on LD players always work as long as the disc has digital sound and they always ignore the L/R thing.
There will not be as aggressive steering. L and R do most of the work.
_________________ All about LD care, inner sleeves, shrink wrap, etc.
https://youtu.be/b3O-vHpHRpM
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ldfan
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Post subject: Re: So confused about surround sound on LaserDisc. Posted: 02 Jul 2018, 03:52 |
Hardcore fan |
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Joined: 28 Jun 2014, 05:59 Posts: 1463 Location: San Francisco, CA USA Has thanked: 427 times Been thanked: 537 times
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Not sure about your particular Sony AV Receiver but on some older Sony AV Receivers one has to activate “Auto Format Decode (AFD)” to force any two channel audio source to activate Dolby Pro-Logic. Otherwise, the receiver only plays back two channel stereo (center and surrounds stay silent). Quite possibly, the “2ch/Multi” switch on your receiver is the same as AFD.
Also, on my Sony, SDP-EP9ES, surround processor it has a very similar functionality as AFD but it’s called “Mode” instead. In addition, Pressing the “Dolby Surround” button on the front panel will only push “surround” if the source is Dolby Digital 4.0 or 5.1 and “stereo” if the signal is PCM. I found this kind of odd when I first used this unit so it's understandable one can be get confused on how surround is activated on some AV gear.
But as signofzeta says, Pro-Logic surround will not sound as aggressive as a discrete 5.1 audio mix but overall sound quality on LD will be very good since two channel PCM sounds more robust due to lack of compression vs. lossy Dolby Digital.
Last edited by ldfan on 02 Jul 2018, 06:48, edited 1 time in total.
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thetmaxx
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Post subject: Re: So confused about surround sound on LaserDisc. Posted: 02 Jul 2018, 04:44 |
Knows how to post |
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Joined: 16 Apr 2018, 20:30 Posts: 8 Location: United States Has thanked: 9 times Been thanked: 0 time
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Thank you all so much. I am completely new to any kind of receiver/ surround sound stuff. Previously I've always just had a awai stereo running... Well, stereo....
I updated my receiver this morning and started digging in more looking for some of the stuff you guys mentioned... I found Neo:6 a DTS thing apparently and it defines it as extracting 7 point surround from a two channel input.... Mind blown. I had no idea that was a thing. This encoded audio stuff is a trip.
Not sure what matrix surround is, but it sounds like I'm getting closer.
Honestly at this point, it's no wonder these never took off for the average movie viewer. You guys wouldn't know it by my lack of comprehension on this topic, but I'm an enthusiastic a/v guy/ computer person, but have just never played with surround sound of any kind in my 34yrs on this Earth. Lots to catch up on.
So if you had my setup, would you run it on optical, coax, or l/r rca cables? I'm still just blown away that surround can be extrapolated from two channel analog.
Thank you for you patience with a noob -chris
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signofzeta
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Post subject: Re: So confused about surround sound on LaserDisc. Posted: 02 Jul 2018, 15:34 |
Jedi Knight |
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Joined: 14 Jan 2010, 09:44 Posts: 6006 Location: Ann Arbor Has thanked: 1306 times Been thanked: 1116 times
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thetmaxx wrote: Thank you all so much. I am completely new to any kind of receiver/ surround sound stuff. Previously I've always just had a awai stereo running... Well, stereo....
I updated my receiver this morning and started digging in more looking for some of the stuff you guys mentioned... I found Neo:6 a DTS thing apparently and it defines it as extracting 7 point surround from a two channel input.... Mind blown. I had no idea that was a thing. This encoded audio stuff is a trip.
Not sure what matrix surround is, but it sounds like I'm getting closer.
Honestly at this point, it's no wonder these never took off for the average movie viewer. You guys wouldn't know it by my lack of comprehension on this topic, but I'm an enthusiastic a/v guy/ computer person, but have just never played with surround sound of any kind in my 34yrs on this Earth. Lots to catch up on.
So if you had my setup, would you run it on optical, coax, or l/r rca cables? I'm still just blown away that surround can be extrapolated from two channel analog.
Thank you for you patience with a noob -chris When home theater began in the 80s there was zero relationship to computer people, probably because computers were so bad back then they had no place in it. (A VCR beats a monochrome computer with 8k pretty handily). The computer people invaded in the 2000s, after DVD, when everything went digital, and they started to be attracked to things they found familiar like “megabytes” and how many bits of color information were being seen. By then everything was automatic so they never needed to put any logic into (ironically). And the prices dropped so much so fast no noobs would bother with old stuff. AV nerds mainly were audio nerds and expanded. They may be computer people (I have an uncle who left me some gear who was a computer programmer for the state) if they were left single too long. There is a great deal of genius in analog electronic engineering. You should look into it. Surround Sound goes back at least to the late 40s. As I sort of didn’t really plainly say, when using old sources they will be stereo until you switch to Pro Logic. Pro Logic is the only system really designed to be used with matrixed LD but you can also use Pro Logic II, Logic 7 or Neo 6. You’ll find the field more dynamic but there may be weird artifacts. If so, go back to regular Pro Logic. I use Neo 6 most of the time. Neo 6 is just Sony’s branded ProLogic. It comes with many things that play DTS. Harmon Kardon invented Logic 7 I think. They do basically the same thing as the analog Dolby boxes did in the 70s but because they are digital there is more going on with steering different dynamics and of course converting it to more than four speakers. I usually use Neo 6. As for what sounds, you’ll have to try them all and tell us. If one version of something was flat better the others in everyone’s opinion in every situation then there would just be an HDMI port and obviously that didn’t exist back then. Also, while digital sound connections are better than analog ones overall, the DAC in you $800 player from back when people used analog sound and had huge stereos might be better than the one in your receiver that cost half as much. Probably not when the receiver is so much newer, but it happens. So sometimes analog out sounds best. You also have to hook up the analogs anyway because many discs have no digital sound and the player won’t send it over digital. Most of us here have three audio paths to the receiver: Analog outs: for main sound on old movies, for commentary isolated sound, etc on later discs. Also used when you like what the DAC is putting out more than the one in your receiver. Digital outs (SPDIF or TOSLINK): for main sound on newer LDs and for DTS AC-3 out: goes to demod, for Dolby Digital movies. As for another question you had, if you have a digital out on this player and that receiver you can play DTS discs with no extra gear. When introduced DTS were very high end discs that needed special gear but Sony has done so well than their code is built into every receiver now.
_________________ All about LD care, inner sleeves, shrink wrap, etc.
https://youtu.be/b3O-vHpHRpM
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admin
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Post subject: Re: So confused about surround sound on LaserDisc. Posted: 03 Jul 2018, 07:59 |
Site Admin |
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Joined: 07 Aug 2002, 23:37 Posts: 4569 Location: Tokyo Has thanked: 299 times Been thanked: 1166 times
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thetmaxx wrote: Fantastic dissertation. I really appreciate it and you've clarified so many questions. I'm going to be playing with the connections and outputs/inputs and I'm sure I can impress the wife yet! Good luck on increasing your WAF! Julien
_________________ HARDWARE DATABASE HLD-X0/9 LD-S9 OPPO 105/205 SL-1200G LDD-1 MSC-4000 R2144 PONTUS II C45 MC257
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takeshi666
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Post subject: Re: So confused about surround sound on LaserDisc. Posted: 03 Jul 2018, 09:41 |
Absolute fan |
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Joined: 01 Feb 2018, 02:41 Posts: 2001 Location: Finland Has thanked: 186 times Been thanked: 390 times
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signofzeta wrote: As for another question you had, if you have a digital out on this player and that receiver you can play DTS discs with no extra gear. When introduced DTS were very high end discs that needed special gear but Sony has done so well than their code is built into every receiver now. I think there are receivers/amps with built-in AC-3 demodulation you can find on the second hand market but those won't be the cheap ones.
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sjoerg
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Post subject: Re: So confused about surround sound on LaserDisc. Posted: 03 Jul 2018, 21:35 |
True fan |
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Joined: 24 May 2016, 01:40 Posts: 297 Location: NY USA Has thanked: 18 times Been thanked: 29 times
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takeshi666 wrote: signofzeta wrote: As for another question you had, if you have a digital out on this player and that receiver you can play DTS discs with no extra gear. When introduced DTS were very high end discs that needed special gear but Sony has done so well than their code is built into every receiver now. I think there are receivers/amps with built-in AC-3 demodulation you can find on the second hand market but those won't be the cheap ones. Actually there are some that can be found quite cheaply, the problem is most are 20+ years old and pretty lacking in features compared to more modern receivers.
_________________ -LD Collection
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signofzeta
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Post subject: Re: So confused about surround sound on LaserDisc. Posted: 03 Jul 2018, 22:30 |
Jedi Knight |
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Joined: 14 Jan 2010, 09:44 Posts: 6006 Location: Ann Arbor Has thanked: 1306 times Been thanked: 1116 times
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takeshi666 wrote: signofzeta wrote: As for another question you had, if you have a digital out on this player and that receiver you can play DTS discs with no extra gear. When introduced DTS were very high end discs that needed special gear but Sony has done so well than their code is built into every receiver now. I think there are receivers/amps with built-in AC-3 demodulation you can find on the second hand market but those won't be the cheap ones. I wouldn’t buy a receiver just for its ability to handle AC-3. There are so many more important factors. Maybe if it was a particularly nice model Pioneer with copper chassis and such...
_________________ All about LD care, inner sleeves, shrink wrap, etc.
https://youtu.be/b3O-vHpHRpM
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ldfan
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Post subject: Re: So confused about surround sound on LaserDisc. Posted: 04 Jul 2018, 03:43 |
Hardcore fan |
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Joined: 28 Jun 2014, 05:59 Posts: 1463 Location: San Francisco, CA USA Has thanked: 427 times Been thanked: 537 times
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takeshi666 wrote: I think there are receivers/amps with built-in AC-3 demodulation you can find on the second hand market but those won't be the cheap ones. I personally think the better option is an AC3-RF equipped Dolby Digital surround processor that also includes several S/PDIF inputs and an S/PDIF output. As I have said in other posts, they can just be used as a digital switch box (processor will do nothing) to couple up with a more modern day AV Receiver. Thus, you can have an AV Receiver w/ all the latest surround codecs and still have the ability to process LaserDisc Dolby Digital as well as DTS . In addition, one can usually find these gems for less than a standalone AC3-RF Demodulator.
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audioboyz1973
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Post subject: Re: So confused about surround sound on LaserDisc. Posted: 04 Jul 2018, 11:07 |
Advanced fan |
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Joined: 16 Jun 2015, 15:40 Posts: 825 Location: Australia Has thanked: 105 times Been thanked: 95 times
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signofzeta wrote: "Neo 6 is just Sony’s branded ProLogic. It comes with many things that play DTS. Harmon Kardon invented Logic 7 I think. They do basically the same thing as the analog Dolby boxes did in the 70s but because they are digital there is more going on with steering different dynamics and of course converting it to more than four speakers. I usually use Neo 6."
"As for another question you had, if you have a digital out on this player and that receiver you can play DTS discs with no extra gear. When introduced DTS were very high end discs that needed special gear but Sony has done so well than their code is built into every receiver now."
I wasn't aware of any link between Sony and DTS? Didn't Sony have their own multichannel system (SDDS) in the theatre market competing against DTS?
_________________ Looking for Hi-Vision Discs (MUSE or HDVS).......
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thetmaxx
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Post subject: Re: So confused about surround sound on LaserDisc. Posted: 08 Jul 2018, 04:51 |
Knows how to post |
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Joined: 16 Apr 2018, 20:30 Posts: 8 Location: United States Has thanked: 9 times Been thanked: 0 time
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As I was a bit disappointed in the Sony 1070 I bought, due to the lack of inputs... They expect you to hook everything up via HDMI. Should just be a HDMI sweetish box really. Anyways... I was looking for specific AC3 receivers, yes they are old. Yes they don't have HDMI connection. But OMG, they have so many inputs, multiple optical, RF, companies, RCA, etc. But way over priced. Like $1000 all day long. It would work great for me.. LD player, NES, Nintendo Wii, and a HTPC, most of my stuff is not HDMI compatible actually .
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signofzeta
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Post subject: Re: So confused about surround sound on LaserDisc. Posted: 08 Jul 2018, 05:12 |
Jedi Knight |
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Joined: 14 Jan 2010, 09:44 Posts: 6006 Location: Ann Arbor Has thanked: 1306 times Been thanked: 1116 times
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audioboyz1973 wrote: signofzeta wrote: "Neo 6 is just Sony’s branded ProLogic. It comes with many things that play DTS. Harmon Kardon invented Logic 7 I think. They do basically the same thing as the analog Dolby boxes did in the 70s but because they are digital there is more going on with steering different dynamics and of course converting it to more than four speakers. I usually use Neo 6."
"As for another question you had, if you have a digital out on this player and that receiver you can play DTS discs with no extra gear. When introduced DTS were very high end discs that needed special gear but Sony has done so well than their code is built into every receiver now."
I wasn't aware of any link between Sony and DTS? Didn't Sony have their own multichannel system (SDDS) in the theatre market competing against DTS? I seem to have been confused. I somehow associated DTS with Sony.
_________________ All about LD care, inner sleeves, shrink wrap, etc.
https://youtu.be/b3O-vHpHRpM
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takeshi666
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Post subject: Re: So confused about surround sound on LaserDisc. Posted: 08 Jul 2018, 08:51 |
Absolute fan |
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Joined: 01 Feb 2018, 02:41 Posts: 2001 Location: Finland Has thanked: 186 times Been thanked: 390 times
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signofzeta wrote: I wouldn’t buy a receiver just for its ability to handle AC-3. There are so many more important factors. Maybe if it was a particularly nice model Pioneer with copper chassis and such... What's your take on the Yamaha DSP-Z9?
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