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 Post subject: Criterion Collection going 4K UHD finally!
PostPosted: 19 Aug 2021, 07:02 
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Announced via their mailing-list few days ago:

https://www.criterion.com/shop/browse?popular=coming-soon

First 4K will be....

Citizen Kane
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Mulholland Dr
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Menace II Society
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 Post subject: Re: Criterion Collection going 4K UHD finally!
PostPosted: 19 Aug 2021, 11:48 
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Menace II Society is absolutely magnificent. I've not seen it in aeons but recall renting it on VHS around 1993/94 on a total whim, I knew nothing about the film the cover just got my attention. The tape ended up getting passed around friends before I had to bring the rental back. Everyone enjoyed it. It was around that time we were watching films like Do The Right Thing, White Men Can't Jump, Friday, Above The Rim, Boyz N The Hood and so on. All great films, different genres of course.

Having not seen Menace II Society since then I think I'll go for the 4K release. I already know what I'm in for, a great film, though now hopefully in the best condition it's ever looked. Day one buy for me. :thumbup:
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 Post subject: Re: Criterion Collection going 4K UHD finally!
PostPosted: 19 Aug 2021, 12:12 
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I guess this is nice but to be honest I have a hard time believing that there is any detail left in the negative of movies like Kane that I haven’t seen at 1080p. It’s like releasing Victrola compilations as quad rate DSD files. Eventually I’ll check it out but I’ll believe it when I see it.
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 Post subject: Re: Criterion Collection going 4K UHD finally!
PostPosted: 19 Aug 2021, 14:21 
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I can't believe such a company chose 2 of those 3 to be their first released.
Guess they do know who there customers truly are......

Sad part of CK is that its one of those films that is available on every format you can ever imagine, its not like one hasn't seen it or already owns
2 or more copies somehow.........
Or can't get it at a thrift store for .50 cents on the anniversary DVD, I think I passed it up once a few years ago for a buck, it was too much for me to spend.
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 Post subject: Re: Criterion Collection going 4K UHD finally!
PostPosted: 19 Aug 2021, 14:29 
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It might be good but i rather stick with BD unless its something I will treasure like AKIRA but I don't have a UHD player and my TV is apparently only 720p. Maybe if OZU was chosen I'd be more excited. I still got about 38-40 in my wishlist some OOP that I still need to get.
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 Post subject: Re: Criterion Collection going 4K UHD finally!
PostPosted: 19 Aug 2021, 14:45 
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rein-o wrote:
its not like one hasn't seen it or already owns
2 or more copies somehow.........


Confession. I've never seen Citizen Kane. :oops: I don't recall ever having seen Mulholland Drive either and I do like David Lynch films.

Derailing a little bit, does Criterion sell posters of any of their cover art? I have Foreign Correspondent on Criterion Blu Ray and I love the cover art a lot. I'd be keen to have a framed poster of it if such a thing exists.
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 Post subject: Re: Criterion Collection going 4K UHD finally!
PostPosted: 19 Aug 2021, 15:22 
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teddanson wrote:
rein-o wrote:
its not like one hasn't seen it or already owns
2 or more copies somehow.........


Confession. I've never seen Citizen Kane. :oops: I don't recall ever having seen Mulholland Drive either and I do like David Lynch films.

Derailing a little bit, does Criterion sell posters of any of their cover art? I have Foreign Correspondent on Criterion Blu Ray and I love the cover art a lot. I'd be keen to have a framed poster of it if such a thing exists.

you just have to look in the store and when they run out they don't restock so its limited
but at the moment no posters show up in the gift shop so i don't know the status of anything
https://www.criterion.com/shop/collection/325-gift-shop
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 Post subject: Re: Criterion Collection going 4K UHD finally!
PostPosted: 19 Aug 2021, 16:35 
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Watch Magnificent Ambersons first if you really like Welles.
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 Post subject: Re: Criterion Collection going 4K UHD finally!
PostPosted: 19 Aug 2021, 19:19 
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Kane is one of those movies that tends to “showcase” or lead or legitimize new formats. The thing is, at some point home video surpasses b/w film going through the jittery cameras of the early 40s and going much beyond that is pointless.

Something similar to this is 2001. There is an AC-3 version of 2001. Why? If you really know the film you know it’s entirely on mono elements spread across a very basic sound stage that Dolby Stereo has no problem replicating. The music was from mono or stereo sources. Enormous parts of the movie are either silence, music, or a guy breathing. There is no bass. The AC-3 can only hurt on a good system since the difference in steering has to be nearly zero and the quality of PCM is way better than AC-3.

Now 2001 is on 4K BR. Well, I hope you don’t mind the FX looking faker than ever because they will now that you have 4K resolution.

Akira would be the same way. Now I can see the mite that was crawling on the eyelash trapped under the cel. Terrific. Is this better?

When I saw Do You Remember Love in 1080p I knew that was all I needed for any pre-digital anime.

Now superhero movies, that’s different. Also anything based purely on photography like nature things and such, very welcome in 4K. But do I need to see MASH in 4K? Transformers the Movie? Ghostbusters even?

For me the major upgrade of BR from DVD wasn’t the number of pixels it was the quality of the image overall. DVD just…looks terrible. And although later players do it wonders it’s always obvious that the bit rate is too low. BR pretty much eliminates this as it also increases the resolution. For me I just don’t need 4K if it’s not Blue Planet or sports. I need it for none of my favorite movies that I can think of.
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 Post subject: Re: Criterion Collection going 4K UHD finally!
PostPosted: 19 Aug 2021, 23:48 
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I always thought the biggest advantage of UHD wasn't the added resolution but the HDR...which is pretty pointless on a black & white film.
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 Post subject: Re: Criterion Collection going 4K UHD finally!
PostPosted: 20 Aug 2021, 01:09 
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takeshi666 wrote:
I always thought the biggest advantage of UHD wasn't the added resolution but the HDR...which is pretty pointless on a black & white film.

Less of a point, sure, but HDR has to do with both luminance and color. It allows for more detail retention in both very bright and very dark parts of the screen compared to SDR. I'm not an expert, but as I understand it black and white film has more dynamic range than SDR video.

The other big advantage of UHD is that H.265 is a lot more efficient than H.264. I think even with the resolution bump, a well-authored UHD-BD has fewer compromises to make with bitrate, which is great if you love grain.
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 Post subject: Re: Criterion Collection going 4K UHD finally!
PostPosted: 20 Aug 2021, 02:28 
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signofzeta wrote:
Something similar to this is 2001. There is an AC-3 version of 2001. Why? If you really know the film you know it’s entirely on mono elements spread across a very basic sound stage that Dolby Stereo has no problem replicating. The music was from mono or stereo sources. Enormous parts of the movie are either silence, music, or a guy breathing. There is no bass. The AC-3 can only hurt on a good system since the difference in steering has to be nearly zero and the quality of PCM is way better than AC-3.


I think you picked the wrong example.

2001 was mixed for 6 magnetic stereo tracks for the 70mm version, making it the perfect candidate for an AC3 (and sadly a DTS release that was cancelled) since discrete materials were available to make a surround remix. Surround or Stereo version would be downmixed.

They were quite many blockbusters mixed in 6-track surround for 70mm prints and, no surprise, most of them were among the first 5.1 LDs and DVDs since the remix was easier (not easy though!) to produce. It was a novelty to push new hardware/decoders/TV screens and the LD retained the PCM stereo tracks anyway, no harm done!

https://www.imdb.com/search/title/?sound_mixes=70_mm_6_track

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 Post subject: Re: Criterion Collection going 4K UHD finally!
PostPosted: 20 Aug 2021, 11:25 
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It may have been a six track master but they don’t use it that way and nothing was recorded that way. They didn’t have multichannel music, the entire OST was from things previously released as records. They aren’t quad. Almost nothing pans around the soundscape ever and really at no place it in the movie is there even a scene where sound could pan other than perhaps the part with the monkeys and that is mostly silence. Everything is either barely stereo or pretty much mono. Space is silent in 2001. Breathing is from a mono mic spread 360. It’s a waste of six track, a waste of AC-3, etc. Nobody who knows this movie should be excited about sound upgrades to it. Star Wars? Totally. This is like releasing Annie Hall in Dolby Atmos.
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 Post subject: Re: Criterion Collection going 4K UHD finally!
PostPosted: 20 Aug 2021, 16:17 
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Man this makes me want to spin up 2001 the criterion box I own again.
I remember always sitting up until midnight when they would play it OTA when I was a kid. Seeing the monkey scene and then passing out
and thinking this was the most amazing thing I had ever seen.

SW and Jaws are like made for TV when you compare it to 2001 period.
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 Post subject: Re: Criterion Collection going 4K UHD finally!
PostPosted: 20 Aug 2021, 20:44 
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I love the movie. I’ve seen it 40 times in the last couple of years. It’s so good LOUD.
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 Post subject: Re: Criterion Collection going 4K UHD finally!
PostPosted: 20 Aug 2021, 20:45 
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signofzeta wrote:
It may have been a six track master but they don’t use it that way and nothing was recorded that way. They didn’t have multichannel music, the entire OST was from things previously released as records. They aren’t quad. Almost nothing pans around the soundscape ever and really at no place it in the movie is there even a scene where sound could pan other than perhaps the part with the monkeys and that is mostly silence. Everything is either barely stereo or pretty much mono. Space is silent in 2001. Breathing is from a mono mic spread 360. It’s a waste of six track, a waste of AC-3, etc. Nobody who knows this movie should be excited about sound upgrades to it. Star Wars? Totally. This is like releasing Annie Hall in Dolby Atmos.


I want that silence coming from all 32 speakers.
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 Post subject: Re: Criterion Collection going 4K UHD finally!
PostPosted: 28 Jan 2022, 20:52 
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As far as UHDs are concerned, I feel that classic three-strip Technicolor films use HDR better than new release blockbusters. The Red Shoes is absolutely worth getting the 4K version for the luscious Technicolor.
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 Post subject: Re: Criterion Collection going 4K UHD finally!
PostPosted: 29 Jan 2022, 13:11 
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Regarding the HDR vs SDR thing, there are big misunderstandings regarding the actual benefit in opting for the later format.

All SDR viewing rely on that the display, monitor, projector or whatever you're using to watch the content behave like a CRT in how the input signal is being transferred to actual light ouput. It is called Power Law and is basically a more efficent way to utilize the bit depth than having a linear transfer function. Mathematically speaking it is very simple but in practise it never gets right as the reference grade CRTs that set the standards for many years are almost impossible to emulate accurately in this regard. In a home enviroment you will never get the same kind of precision, both as far as the technology goes but also when taking the enviroment into consideration.

HDR on the other hand utilizes a PQ tone curve, in which the stored data has precise light level output and therefore cannot result in just any kind of image. It's absolute and takes away all the headache that the CRT references causes us colorists. Also this makes it much easier to keep shadow detail visible without sacricing blacks.

In addition to the nominal luminance values, you also have much better headroom as you can do HDR mastering with 1000 or 4000 nits as targets (realistically speaking, tho I believe only the Dolby Pulsar offer 4000 nits). A lot of people seem to think that HDR is always supposed to be super bright and that old features shot on film therefore have no reason to be presented in HDR. This couldn't be further from the truth. Negatives from Kodak offer extremely good dynamic range. Even typical Eastmancolor (5247, 100T) can be overexposed by many steps without losing any highlights and it will all be present once the OCN has been scanned as long as the telecine operator knows his thing. Then doing the color timing in SDR is just kind of... The wrong way, considering how limited power law really is. The HDR grades I've done have been very conservative with most information at 150-200 nits and below, but the extra headroom makes it so I don't have to compromise on the APL to avoid clipping highlights whenever there are bright objects. Things like spotlights, fire, explosions, direct reflections etc are a pain to get right in SDR but in HDR you can focus on getting the APL right and then just let the highlights get brighter. Hell, you can limit yourself to 300 nits and will benefit greatly instead of opting for SDR which only is 100 nits peak brightness.

Then we also have higher bit depth, which in the case of the Criterion releases goes up to 12 bits thanks to Dolby Vision FEL (normally 10 bits with HDR10). The wider color gamut is also great for analog film as BT.709 is, once again, limited to what a color CRT from the early 60s was capable of (yes, I know that SMPTE-C came first along with NTSC but BT.709 is almost identical to EBU). I've seen plenty of UHDs and with exception for the light cannons from Sony, which you can check out here, HDR brings so many improvements to the home experience that I could only dream of for many years. It's not just an improvement, it's a revolution. Previously mentioned Akira and 2001 are spectacular on UHD. Also I loved how Anatomy of a Murder, Dr. Strangelove, Deep Red, True Romance, The Social Network, Scream, King of New York and Casino looked in HDR. There has never been a better time for film enthusiasts.

I've got both Menace II Society and Mulholland Dr on UHD from Criterion and they are some of the very best releases on the format. It took them a long time to get into this format but now they've done a bang up job and for that they deserve kudos.
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 Post subject: Re: Criterion Collection going 4K UHD finally!
PostPosted: 29 Jan 2022, 14:36 
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….the Social Network? You love that?

I’ve never seen it, quite on purpose, but it looks like the 21st century version of Carnal Knowledge, that is something that briefly fascinated America for a short time in a moment of ignorance but now seems childish and genuinely unpleasant to watch and the sooner it becomes a lost film the better.

Like I said, I haven’t seen it but it has one of the most annoying writers in history creating a script for one of the most annoying actors in history so that he can play one of the most annoying people in history. Seems like torture, Nails on a Chalkboard: The Movie, regardless of format.
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 Post subject: Re: Criterion Collection going 4K UHD finally!
PostPosted: 29 Jan 2022, 15:20 
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Talk about missing a point on purpose. The Social Network looks fantastic on UHD thanks to its implementation of HDR. It's a night and day difference. As for detail and sharpness it is pretty much identical to the existing Blu-Ray which is to be expected. But yes, I am very fond of the film itself too. Can't see why anyone would care about what anyone has to say about a film without even seeing it, tho in the end it is only your loss.
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