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 Post subject: Adding HD DVD players to the Hardware database
PostPosted: 10 Nov 2021, 09:33 
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Just started:

https://www.lddb.com/device/hddvd

But I was wondering what features would be interesting to add to differentiate/qualify players?

I think upscaling DVD to 1080i or having 1080p output was not common to all players.

Are there more HD DVD-specific features?

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 Post subject: Re: Adding HD DVD players to the Hardware database
PostPosted: 10 Nov 2021, 22:11 
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Upscaling DVDs to 1080i (or 1080p on later than first gen players) was a feature on all Toshiba HD-DVD players afaik, but it was only available through HDMI. With analog outputs you were limited to 480/576p at best. This is true to most, if not all, Blu-Ray players as well with analog video outputs.

Btw, Toshiba HD-A1 should be in the list. Submissions are currently disabled so I write it here basically. :P
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 Post subject: Re: Adding HD DVD players to the Hardware database
PostPosted: 11 Nov 2021, 02:18 
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nissling wrote:
Upscaling DVDs to 1080i (or 1080p on later than first gen players) was a feature on all Toshiba HD-DVD players afaik, but it was only available through HDMI. With analog outputs you were limited to 480/576p at best. This is true to most, if not all, Blu-Ray players as well with analog video outputs.


I added "1080p video" as an option, thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: Adding HD DVD players to the Hardware database
PostPosted: 11 Nov 2021, 20:49 
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I just submitted the HD-A1. A few notes that can be worth considering.

Most, if not all, HD-DVD players have ethernet capabilites. USB input is also common. Being able to tell which players that can bitstream Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA and HR would also be great. And also sorting what players that use HDMI 1.2 or 1.3 as this can be a real headache when trying to use these old players on modern systems.

As for YPbPr, it looks a bit confusing as both options are entitled identically yet have different images. And YUV should not be confused with RGB neither. It would make more sense to separate them by calling them "Component analog video YPbPr (BNC)" and "Component analog video YPbPr RCA" respectively. YCbCr can only be output through HDMI on HD-DVD players due to HDCP so having that option doesn't really make any sense.
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 Post subject: Re: Adding HD DVD players to the Hardware database
PostPosted: 12 Nov 2021, 04:52 
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nissling wrote:
Most, if not all, HD-DVD players have ethernet capabilites. USB input is also common.


Thanks for testing the "submit device".

=> Did you use the Preview feature?

I guess you didn't see the Controls IN/OUT section :-)

Attachment:
Controls.png
Controls.png [ 184.48 KiB | Viewed 165 times ]


I added the LAN port.

nissling wrote:
Being able to tell which players that can bitstream Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA and HR would also be great.
And also sorting what players that use HDMI 1.2 or 1.3 as this can be a real headache when trying to use these old players on modern systems.


Aren't these related issues? HDMI 1.2 can only output uncompressed audio so HDMI 1.3 would would be needed to Dolby/DTS/HiRes?

Should I split HDMI IN+OUT into HDMI 1.2 or 1.3 or 1.4 IN+OUT?
We'll just assume HDMI 2.0 is equivalent to 4K for most people.

nissling wrote:
As for YPbPr, it looks a bit confusing as both options are entitled identically yet have different images. And YUV should not be confused with RGB neither. It would make more sense to separate them by calling them "Component analog video YPbPr (BNC)" and "Component analog video YPbPr RCA" respectively. YCbCr can only be output through HDMI on HD-DVD players due to HDCP so having that option doesn't really make any sense.


The available selection is not restricted to what HD DVD players can handle but are the whole universe of available options within the database as of now.

I have yet to find a YUV output that is not RGB compatible or a RGB that is not YUV compatible, some older devices couldn't do both?

Which part is not clear between BNC/RCA pictures and YPbPr/YCbCr descriptions?

Attachment:
YUV.png
YUV.png [ 63.1 KiB | Viewed 165 times ]


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 Post subject: Re: Adding HD DVD players to the Hardware database
PostPosted: 12 Nov 2021, 08:08 
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admin wrote:
Should I split HDMI IN+OUT into HDMI 1.2 or 1.3 or 1.4 IN+OUT?
We'll just assume HDMI 2.0 is equivalent to 4K for most people.


I'll do an exhaustive split:

  • HDMI 1.2 OUT
  • HDMI 1.3 OUT
  • HDMI 1.4 OUT
  • HDMI Audio only OUT

Should we also apply this split to HDMI IN?

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 Post subject: Re: Adding HD DVD players to the Hardware database
PostPosted: 12 Nov 2021, 11:09 
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I must've missed the I/O section. That happens :)

admin wrote:
I have yet to find a YUV output that is not RGB compatible or a RGB that is not YUV compatible, some older devices couldn't do both?

Which part is not clear between BNC/RCA pictures and YPbPr/YCbCr descriptions?

I cannot remember seeing a single DVD, HD-DVD or Blu-Ray player with YPbPr that can do RGB on that specific output. However it's not uncommon that RGB and YPbPr can use a shared input on certain video processors, projectors and monitors so from that perspective it makes sense.

YCbCr gets a bit odd however since that signal is never transmitted through RCA. It's used primarily with HDMI and SDI (which has BNC), as well as DisplayPort and DVI but nowhere near as common.

As for HDMI versions, I am not completely sure whether or not all HD-DVD players that support HDMI 1.3 can bitstream DTS-HD and Dolby TrueHD. Especially considering how few players that in fact supported it (the only ones I remember are the HD-XA2 and HD-EP35). Reason why HDMI version can be of valuable information is that the HDMI EDID on modern receivers and TVs often cause handshake issues with older sources. This is especially true for HDMI 1.2 players.

I personally think it's a good idea to specify the HDMI versions both for inputs and outputs. :)
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 Post subject: Re: Adding HD DVD players to the Hardware database
PostPosted: 12 Nov 2021, 14:20 
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nissling wrote:
YCbCr gets a bit odd however since that signal is never transmitted through RCA. It's used primarily with HDMI and SDI (which has BNC), as well as DisplayPort and DVI but nowhere near as common.


Then we have to tell Pioneer they mis-labelled their DVL-9xx players ;-)

Image

nissling wrote:
I personally think it's a good idea to specify the HDMI versions both for inputs and outputs. :)


I'll add the split later tonight!

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 Post subject: Re: Adding HD DVD players to the Hardware database
PostPosted: 12 Nov 2021, 14:21 
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Haha, that's a new one. :lol:
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 Post subject: Re: Adding HD DVD players to the Hardware database
PostPosted: 13 Nov 2021, 05:16 
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I'll second that noting which players can bitstream TrueHD and DTS-HD Master is a worthwhile addition. I'm pretty sure it was limited to the XA2, A35, and their clones.

I'm also not sure if it's too in-the-weeds, but it may be worth tracking firmware versions along with what was fixed/broken/added/removed in each version.

If you need pictures, I have an Onkyo DV-HD805 which is a somewhat uncommon Toshiba XA2 clone. The Integra DHS-8.8 is another and, I'm fairly certain, identical to the Onkyo HD805 other than the brand name at the top-left corner.
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 Post subject: Re: Adding HD DVD players to the Hardware database
PostPosted: 13 Nov 2021, 13:21 
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shopkins82 wrote:
I'll second that noting which players can bitstream TrueHD and DTS-HD Master is a worthwhile addition. I'm pretty sure it was limited to the XA2, A35, and their clones.


From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DTS-HD_Master_Audio:

Quote:
Over HDMI 1.3 (or higher) connections as the original DTS-HD Master Audio bitstream, with decoding and DAC both done by the AV receiver. (This is the transport mode required for DTS:X playback.)


HDMI 1.3 would not automatically guarantee that lossless multi-ch formats could be passed over HDMI undecoded?

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 Post subject: Re: Adding HD DVD players to the Hardware database
PostPosted: 13 Nov 2021, 20:16 
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I know HD-A30 has HDMI 1.3 but is not able to bitstream TrueHD and DTS-HD MA. Apparently, it comes down to whether the HDMI transmitter chip used in the specific model supports bitstream output or not. The HD-XA2, HD-A35, and their clones (Onkyo and Integra XA2 clones) are the only models that can bitstream TrueHD and DTS-HD MA.

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/ ... d-player-0
Quote:
As mentioned the player does decode 5.1-channel Dolby Digital Plus and TrueHD, and outputs these signals as multichannel PCM over HDMI. It does not decode DTS-HD Master Audio, which has almost no presence on HD DVD anyway, nor does it transmit either format as native bitstreams over its HDMI 1.3 output. It also lacks multichannal analog outputs, so for high-res audio it's HDMI or bust.

I know a number of you are probably scratching your heads, and wondering if I really meant to write that this player's HDMI 1.3 output can't transmit TrueHD and DTS-HD MA as native bitstreams. It's true. TrueHD and DTS-HD MA are optional in the HDMI 1.3 spec, and my understanding is that source component manufacturers can choose HDMI transmitter chips with or without hardware level support for bitstream transmission of these codecs, and that even with a transmitter that is hardware capable the player's firmware must also support bitstream transmission. I don't know what the case is here, but as of now bitstream support isn't enabled here, and as with other next-gen player manufacturers, Toshiba only makes this feature available in a more expensive model.
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 Post subject: Re: Adding HD DVD players to the Hardware database
PostPosted: 14 Nov 2021, 06:49 
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shopkins82 wrote:
Apparently, it comes down to whether the HDMI transmitter chip used in the specific model supports bitstream output or not.


And now my head is spinning..! :-)

But thank you for the clarification.

So what we can do is:

1/ Add individual standards to the "Audio Processing" module (DD+, DD TrueHD, DTS-HD, etc. )
2/ Add HD DVD module specific for "TrueHD over HDMI" and "DTS-HD Master Audio over HDMI"

It would look something like this: Integra DHS-8.8

Would that work?

Julien
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 Post subject: Re: Adding HD DVD players to the Hardware database
PostPosted: 15 Nov 2021, 14:56 
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The Admin validation code is live now so I added all the pending entries:

Integra DHS-8.8
Onkyo DV-HD805
Toshiba HD-A1
Toshiba HD-A2
Toshiba HD-A20
Toshiba HD-A3
Toshiba HD-A30
Toshiba HD-A35
Toshiba HD-E1
Toshiba HD-EP10
Toshiba HD-EP30
Toshiba HD-EP35
Toshiba HD-XA1
Toshiba HD-XA1
Toshiba HD-XA2
Toshiba HD-XA2
Toshiba HD-XE1
Toshiba HD-XF2
RCA HDV-5000
Toshiba RD-A1
Toshiba RD-A300
Toshiba RD-A301
Toshiba RD-A600

You may now submit new entries for validation => https://www.lddb.com/submit.php

Or submit updates with the same process as for discs.

Julien
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 Post subject: Re: Adding HD DVD players to the Hardware database
PostPosted: 23 Nov 2021, 07:13 
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Submitted update for the Onkyo HD-805.

Included links to the User Manual and Service Manual. Forgot to include that the remote is model RC-715DV and that IR codes are identical to the Toshiba HD-DVD codes.
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 Post subject: Re: Adding HD DVD players to the Hardware database
PostPosted: 25 Nov 2021, 15:23 
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shopkins82 wrote:
Submitted update for the Onkyo HD-805.


Full update allowed me to debug further my updates validation code, thanks!

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