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 Post subject: The Final Chapter (full collection rot review)
PostPosted: 01 Feb 2023, 16:04 
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(aka HDDVD SUXX)

Took me the whole evening but I tested ALL my remaining HDDVDs tonight and... I have 21 survivors that "play".

Let me define what "play" means as I had no time to watch everything entirely:

  1. Insert the disc in the player, the disc gets detected as a HDDVD
  2. Movie starts playing
  3. Jump to the last chapter (to trigger a layer change)
  4. If still playing, rewind a few chapters to trigger the layer change again

Listing all the dead ones would be too long, so let's list only the winners:

Only 2 Warner survived !!

Eyes Wide Shut (1999) [129386] (Canada release)
Firewall (2006) [81027]

One Dreamworks made it: Disturbia (2007) [12441]

2007 DTS-HD Master Audio (2007) [---] (signed by Omar Hakim in NYC, even if rotted, I would keep it!)

Paramount:

U2: Rattle and Hum (1988) [07036]
Italian Job, The (2003) [07037]
Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow (2004) [07040]
Sleepy Hollow (1999) [11819]
Mission: Impossible: Ultimate Missions Collection [11993] (only the first movie played, more on this later)
Top Gun (1986) [13055]
Beowulf (2007) [13231] (Canada release)

Universal:

Miami Vice (2006) [61030032]
Darkman (1990) [61032834]
Carlito's Way (1993) [61032853]
Shaun of the Dead (2004) [61032931]
Unleashed (2005) [62031106]
Being John Malkovich (1999) [62101263]
End of Days (1999) [27783]
Tremors (1990) [27918C] (Canada release, not sure it would play entirely)

And 2 French releases:

Renaissance (2006) [3316685]
Terminator 2: Le jugement dernier (1991) [302 345-5]

What do they all have in common?

[1] Very little to no plastic decay inside the case
and
[2] No weird patterns that appeared/evolved on the data side of the disc over time.
and
[3] They often (even still sealed before test) had little to no insert/catalogs/etc. that might denote a different batch or production facility.

Side note: sealed or not sealed seems to make absolutely NO difference in the outcome of the test.

Among the dead ones, 69 would not even be recognized by the player => fail at step a)
2 would be detected as HDDVD but couldn't start playing => fail at step b) (both Universal)
3 would play but fail to reach the last chapter => fail at step c) (3 Universal incl. 2 combo discs)
3 would play the last chapter but fail at shifting back a few chapters with error => fail at step d) (Dreamworks, Paramount, Universal)

That would denote that the rot does not stabilize after some time but keep eating discs alive.
Most of my failed discs would previously fail at c) or d) 5 years ago, now most fail at a).

Among the 77 victims:

  • 33 Warner => death rate is 94% for me when considering all Warner titles I still have
  • 28 Universal => death rate 78%
  • 6 Paramount => death rate 46%
  • 3 Dreamworks => death rate 75%
  • 7 various labels => death rate 78%

R.I.P. (Rarely I Play) HDDVD.

Last update

I tried the DVD side of the few combo releases I own:

HDDVD dead, DVD playable:

Departed, The (2006) [111728]
Scorpion King, The (2002) [31304]
Children of Men (2006) [61030033]
Hot Fuzz (2007) [62100068]
Bourne Ultimatum, The (2007) [61101398]

HDDVD dead, not able to read the full DVD:

Appleseed Ex Machina (2007) [3000014884]
Letters from Iwo Jima (2006) [111299]
Ultimate Matrix Collection, The [---]

Julien
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 Post subject: Re: The Final Chapter (full collection rot review)
PostPosted: 01 Feb 2023, 16:18 
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Now let me explain what I call "case decay" and "weird patterns".

First let's start with 2 different clean, healthy cases from the survivor group:

Attachment:
OK_Case1.jpg
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Attachment:
OK_Case2.jpg
OK_Case2.jpg [ 47.21 KiB | Viewed 2903 times ]


A lot of Warner have flimsy cases that started to decay and reveal where the machines grabbed them during the packaging process:

Attachment:
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NotSoOK1.jpg [ 48.47 KiB | Viewed 2903 times ]

Attachment:
DustDecay1.jpg
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Clearly the case and the discs interact chemically, they have a good chemistry...

Attachment:
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The patterns can become wavy:

Attachment:
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Or like dots/drops:

Attachment:
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But there is a clear interaction between the case and the disc as evidenced on this dead Spartacus (unsealed minutes before) when I passed my finger:

Attachment:
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Attachment:
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=> Could have we saved some discs by getting them out and away from their red cases right after purchase?

Now, the chemistry mirror-case above is interesting. It is from Mission: Impossible: Ultimate Missions Collection [11993] where only the first movie was recognized by the player.

After cleaning carefully the dust deposit on both discs, M:I:2 and M:I:3 played again normally!

Updated death rate for Paramount => death rate 31%

I'll set the Paramount discs aside and see if some cleaning could help.
Maybe even dipping in water or light soap.
For all I care, they are already dead to me, can't hurt to try.

Julien
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 Post subject: Re: The Final Chapter (full collection rot review)
PostPosted: 01 Feb 2023, 16:30 
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Weird patterns #1 (the most common)

SPOTS that are inside the disc.

You cannot clean any of these patterns, they are inside the disc layers.

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 Post subject: Re: The Final Chapter (full collection rot review)
PostPosted: 01 Feb 2023, 16:34 
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Next is WASHED as if they cleaned the discs with a liquid too abrasive/acid that left permanent damages (usually Warner).

Attachment:
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 Post subject: Re: The Final Chapter (full collection rot review)
PostPosted: 01 Feb 2023, 16:37 
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Next is INSIDE OUT where the oxidation process seems to work its way through the inner hole and the edge.

That would be very similar to LaserDisc laser rot.

Attachment:
InsideOut1.jpg
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 Post subject: Re: The Final Chapter (full collection rot review)
PostPosted: 01 Feb 2023, 16:39 
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Next are FINGERS as if someone at the factory touched the discs with bare hands and left permanent marks as well.

First one was a used copy but second one was brand new.

Can't clean them either.

Attachment:
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Attachment:
Fingers2.jpg
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 Post subject: Re: The Final Chapter (full collection rot review)
PostPosted: 01 Feb 2023, 16:42 
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A mix of SMOKE, SCRATCH (brand new) and a strange 2COLORS on a sealed 2001 -- and this is not related to the printed pattern/design on the other side.

Attachment:
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 Post subject: Re: The Final Chapter (full collection rot review)
PostPosted: 01 Feb 2023, 16:44 
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And finally my favorite category: MODERN ART!

This U-571 really found a way to express itself freely.

Attachment:
Artsy1.jpg
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Attachment:
Artsy2.jpg
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 Post subject: Re: The Final Chapter (full collection rot review)
PostPosted: 01 Feb 2023, 18:18 
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I've had some DVDs with that washed image look to them, no issues and they played fine, even sold some and no complaints.
Wonder if the washed look that you mention is bad for these HDs only??
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 Post subject: Re: The Final Chapter (full collection rot review)
PostPosted: 01 Feb 2023, 23:00 
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Glad I bought only a couple HD DVDs at full price and converted them all to BD-R around 2010. Of course some of the BD-Rs rotted as well, but nothing that I care about that much.
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 Post subject: Re: The Final Chapter (full collection rot review)
PostPosted: 02 Feb 2023, 09:46 
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Turns out it was not only HDDVD.

A lot of Warner USA DVDs from 2006~2009 are also rotting.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CyLGHyuhA2mfhPr4Bkyj8RAapl_0LTmN/edit

And I remembered I got rid of 12 Warner HDDVDs few years ago so... let me amend the Warner Bros death rate to 96%.

Also, I was wrong (and probably picked the info somewhere without double-checking) about blaming Technicolor for the poor manufacturing quality.

Warner actually MOVED production to Thomson/Technicolor in Guadalajara, Mexico in 2010 (suspiciously after 4 years or horrific quality output!) from Cinram in Olyphant, Pennsylvania.

How to know where your disc came from?

  • Cinram USA = IFPI codes in 2U** and 2F**
  • Cinram Canada = IFPI codes in 60**
  • Thomson/Technicolor = IFPI codes in 2T**

They are tiny letters around the inner hole of each discs. My eyes are not good enough anymore so I just scanned it @ 1,200dpi and zoomed freely on the image.

For example: Goodfellas (1990) [80932] (DEAD, can't play anymore)

Attachment:
Matrix.jpg
Matrix.jpg [ 45.66 KiB | Viewed 2868 times ]


Now zoom in, apply 0.4 Alpha and invert colors:

Attachment:
IFPI.jpg
IFPI.jpg [ 15.92 KiB | Viewed 2868 times ]


IFPI 2UN3 => Cinram USA

I will modify the code to allow Matrix/IFPI information (similar to LD Mint Marks) and add a Manufacturing combo box.

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 Post subject: Re: The Final Chapter (full collection rot review)
PostPosted: 02 Feb 2023, 10:06 
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As a comparison, Shrek the Third (2007) [11792] is a Technicolor pressing.

Attachment:
Matrix.jpg
Matrix.jpg [ 41.97 KiB | Viewed 2868 times ]

Attachment:
IFPI.jpg
IFPI.jpg [ 31.67 KiB | Viewed 2868 times ]


It's hard to see but it says TECHNICOLOR IFPI 2TV6.

Attachment:
IFPI-zoom.jpg
IFPI-zoom.jpg [ 11.11 KiB | Viewed 2867 times ]


And a better example with Red Dragon (2002) [61031286] where both layers are visible.

Attachment:
IFPI2.jpg
IFPI2.jpg [ 51.4 KiB | Viewed 2861 times ]


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 Post subject: Re: The Final Chapter (full collection rot review)
PostPosted: 02 Feb 2023, 10:24 
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Wow, catastrophic.
Good hard earned money gone to the dumpster.
Obviously tech not built to last.
Has this issue / problem been rectified in existing newer media ?
Curious....

Cheers to the membership.
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 Post subject: Re: The Final Chapter (full collection rot review)
PostPosted: 02 Feb 2023, 10:40 
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admin wrote:
Also, I was wrong (and probably picked the info somewhere without double-checking) about blaming Technicolor for the poor manufacturing quality.


Only half wrong!

Quote:
Cinram owned pressing plant in Olyphant, PA, operated under this name between 2003 and 2015. Formerly known as the WEA Mfg. Olyphant pressing plant which was purchased by Cinram in Oct 2003. Technicolor Home Entertainment Services bought Cinram's North American operations in November 2015 and renamed the plant to Technicolor. The plant closed on May 1, 2018


So it was Technicolor... but only from 2015.
For the HDDVD period that is of interest for us, it was Cinram, ex-Warner.

So... Warner divest the plant to another company but keeps using them.
Quality drops to the point where even Warner moves to another Technicolor plant.
Quality must have been so bad that they eventually had to sell out to Technicolor to survive...
And died 3 years later.

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 Post subject: Re: The Final Chapter (full collection rot review)
PostPosted: 02 Feb 2023, 14:34 
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admin wrote:
I will modify the code to allow Matrix/IFPI information (similar to LD Mint Marks) and add a Manufacturing combo box.


Done.

Ex:

Syriana (2005) [80792]
Shrek the Third (2007) [11792]
Goodfellas (1990) [80932]
Red Dragon (2002) [61031286]

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 Post subject: Re: The Final Chapter (full collection rot review)
PostPosted: 02 Feb 2023, 17:00 
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admin wrote:
admin wrote:
I will modify the code to allow Matrix/IFPI information (similar to LD Mint Marks) and add a Manufacturing combo box.


Done.

Ex:

Syriana (2005) [80792]
Shrek the Third (2007) [11792]
Goodfellas (1990) [80932]
Red Dragon (2002) [61031286]

Julien


Thanks Julien for your tireless efforts on this database. I will check my Swedish dead releases to see what Matrix/IFPI information they have.
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 Post subject: Re: The Final Chapter (full collection rot review)
PostPosted: 02 Feb 2023, 17:05 
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Yeesh! The failure rate on these seem worse than DiscoVision!

At the very least I can say I got into this format with very little overhead thankfully and spent less than $10 on all of the discs I got.

I guess I should see how many of my discs still actually play.

The most recent one I got Chicago and Earth Wind and Fire - Live at the Greek plays fine.

Of course, I only tested it in my HD-DVD drive in my desktop. I'll need to see if it plays in my HD-XA2.
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 Post subject: Re: The Final Chapter (full collection rot review)
PostPosted: 03 Feb 2023, 17:18 
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Since I went through a lot of scanning to get the Runout/IFPI, I'll use them to add visuals!

Ex: Fugitive, The (1993) [80957]
Image
Image

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 Post subject: Re: The Final Chapter (full collection rot review)
PostPosted: 03 Feb 2023, 20:59 
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That disc is also cracked!
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All about LD care, inner sleeves, shrink wrap, etc.

https://youtu.be/b3O-vHpHRpM
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 Post subject: Re: The Final Chapter (full collection rot review)
PostPosted: 04 Feb 2023, 06:32 
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signofzeta wrote:
That disc is also cracked!


Yes, I saw that when scanning.

I'm very careful with my stuff... so I would imagine the materials used to manufacture these discs are getting easy to crack of just shrinking!

What a complete s**t show HDDVD was... and of course they all got away with it and never compensated people who bought player and discs.
All while claiming "buy genuine discs, it saves jobs" (not ours) or "piracy is a crime" (my Chinese HDDVD bootleg works just fine!).

Julien
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