LaserDisc Database
https://forum.lddb.com/

Need advice on a LD player upgrade
https://forum.lddb.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=10258		 Page 2 of 3
Author:  dennish [ 16 Feb 2022, 23:43 ]
Post subject:  Re: Need advice on a LD player upgrade
dennish wrote:
No, none that I can detect anyway. Has never been an issue.


Been awhile since I played a LD but just tested a Non-RC3 and RC3 disc and had no audio delay issues.
Author:  ldfan [ 17 Feb 2022, 04:16 ]
Post subject:  Re: Need advice on a LD player upgrade
Well... that's good to hear. Most DVD Recorders will add milliseconds of delay as it processes the incoming analog video to MPEG. I assume you didn't make any kind of delay compensation on the AV Receiver (not that I know of any units that can make that adjustment)?
Author:  dennish [ 17 Feb 2022, 12:47 ]
Post subject:  Re: Need advice on a LD player upgrade
Other than running Audyssey I haven't made any setting changes in my AVR.
Author:  dennish [ 19 Feb 2022, 00:46 ]
Post subject:  Re: Need advice on a LD player upgrade
I have been out researching LD players to get smarter on what is what in various Pioneer models.

1. Pioneer seems to be the go-to brand and the major manufacture of LD players so this is my target brand.
2. For appearance I would prefer black as all my components are black. Not a deal breaker.
3. Dual sided play while ok it's not really all that, you still have to get up for side 3.
4. I don't think is MUSE is a must have as I don't own any MUSE laserdiscs and from what I understand titles are limited. Sounds like this was a Japan format.
5. RC3 is something I must have so the CLD-97 is out even though I understand it can be modified. Prefer not to do that.
6. Comb Filter, a topic that seems to get a lot of discussion and as many more different opinions. 3-D vs. 2-D seem to be the hot discussion topics.
7. I'm still confused on the Pioneer "Elite" brand, is this better or just more pretty?

I guess I'm looking at Pioneer --> Black --> RC3 --> Comb Filter????

My target list seems to be in no particular order.

Pioneer HLD-X0 Muse Hi-Def (1995) Japan Only
Pioneer Elite CLD-99 (1995) North America
Pioneer LD-S9 (1995) Japan Only
Pioneer HLD-X9 (1996) Japan Only
Pioneer CLD-R7G (1996) Japan Only

Are all those really Japan only units?

Dennis
Author:  dennish [ 19 Feb 2022, 02:41 ]
Post subject:  Re: Need advice on a LD player upgrade
From my travels on Tom's Guide and a conversation between three people back in 2005 one of them being Kurtis Bahr whose opinion I respect.

The just of the conversation was that the LD-S9 and CLD-D704 when using the composite output provided no difference in picture quality. However, when using the S-Video output the LD-S9 will look much better with an analog CRT TV. But if you're using HDTV chances are the comb filter on the HDTV are better so the advantages of the LD-S9 over the CLD-D704 are lost.

This got my brain to asking how does comb filters play into projectors? My projector is a Sony VPL-VW285ES.
Author:  ldfan [ 19 Feb 2022, 04:07 ]
Post subject:  Re: Need advice on a LD player upgrade
dennish wrote:
This got my brain to asking how does comb filters play into projectors? My projector is a Sony VPL-VW285ES.


If I am reading the spec sheet of your projector correctly that it does not incorporate a composite video input, there will be no comb filter built in. The only way to hook up an LD player to it would be what you already mentioned (Samsung upconvert DVD/VCR or DVDO VP50) but I don't think either have great comb filters on board.

And yes, the 704 and S9 were designed to Y/C separate the composite signal from the disc to create the S-Video signal but none of that really matters when using the composite out. However, another problem is that these players have a digitally reprocessed composite signal taken from the S-Video signal so neither player has a pure analog composite out which would be better when trying to scale up (the reason many people prefer a CLD-97 or LD-S2). In other words, you want to minimize the number of times the signal is changed by the time it reaches your display to reduce unwanted artifacts.
Author:  laserfanhld-gb [ 19 Feb 2022, 09:45 ]
Post subject:  Re: Need advice on a LD player upgrade
I have to agree with ldfan regarding the DVDO VP50 comb filter; I have previously owned one and it’s absolutely not one of its stronger points I’m afraid, you would have been better looking for a decent DVDO Duo or Edge processor rather than that one tbh (just ask teddanson ;) ) Actually you may have inadvertently done yourself a favour though now as you just rather narrowed your choice of players, and if it were me I would now look no further than an R7G running s-video into the VP50 then hdmi straight to the Sony - I think you will be more than happy with the results once you’ve tweeked the R7Gs various filter & NR settings to your own personal taste.
Author:  ldfan [ 19 Feb 2022, 10:01 ]
Post subject:  Re: Need advice on a LD player upgrade
laserfanhld-gb wrote:
I would now look no further than an R7G running s-video into the VP50 then hdmi straight to the Sony - I think you will be more than happy with the results once you’ve tweeked the R7Gs various filter & NR settings to your own personal taste.


That is actually a good point to make.

Although we are accustomed to the thinking that S-Video should be avoided on LD, many of the later generation Y/C Separators (it’s what we should be calling them in LD players since they work in reverse to a comb filter) do a decent enough job (at least to me) without having to spend a fortune on a Lumagen processor.

Also, using the S-Video of the R7G (or S9) to a VP50 whose only job at that point would be to scale up the image will reduce the multi processing I mentioned vs if you went all composite as planned (remember there is no further comb filtering being done when a signal comes out S-Video).
Author:  jakeheke [ 19 Feb 2022, 10:05 ]
Post subject:  Re: Need advice on a LD player upgrade
R7G with a DVDO Duo with good settings i can claim is good value
Author:  dennish [ 19 Feb 2022, 13:11 ]
Post subject:  Re: Need advice on a LD player upgrade
If I'm understanding all this correctly the laser reads the information on the laserdisc and sends that to the Y/C separators or comb filter where magic happens than the information is sent to both the Composite out and S-Video out???????????

On older Flat screens I recall seeing.
Composite - Good
S-Video - Better
HDMI - Best

The VP-50 Pro I have inbound was not overly expensive so I'm ok with giving that a try for now, I checked all my normal go-to places (eBay, Craigslist, FB Marketplace) and didn't see any DUO or Edge for sale. Granted all this legacy equipment is 12 to 25 years old and hit and miss on what you get, guess that's why we call it a hobby.

So the $100 question is should I use Composite or S-Video out of the DVL-909 and into the VP-50 Pro?
Author:  takeshi666 [ 19 Feb 2022, 14:05 ]
Post subject:  Re: Need advice on a LD player upgrade
Composite.
Author:  dennish [ 19 Feb 2022, 18:21 ]
Post subject:  Re: Need advice on a LD player upgrade
On AVSforum back in 2012 there was a thread asking about the CLD-R7G as an entry level player in the LD world. Kurtis stated that the CLD-R7G was not a holy grail but was a player that people preference. He preferred the CLD-97 for a dual sided player and the LD-S2 or HLD-X0 for a single sided player. He went on to say that if you really wanted to see an eye opening unit to buy the HLD-X0.

The CLD- R7G was produced from 1996 – 1999 for the Japan market and was the LD deck Pioneer designed last, in 1997, two years after the high-end models LD-S9 and HLD-X9. As such, it incorporates the final advances in LD player technology: later generation 3-Dimensional Y/C Separation, not found on any model ever to be on sale in North America. It has a NEC #3 chip (assuming 3D comb filter).

The HLD-X0 was produced from 1995 – 1999 for the Japan market. The player is able to decode NTSC Laserdisc signal internally and separate Y/C using its 1st generation NEC PD6480FG 3D motion-adaptive comb filter. It can also lock onto the MUSE signal on Hi-Vision discs and transport it to a MUSE decoder. It has the Burr-Brown 1702 Digital to Analog audio convertors which was the best at the time. HLD-X9 also has the same 1702 DAC but it is the K version. HLD-X0 has the PK version which is the highest quality version. The player also has a separate power supply for its audio section for better isolated noise floor. It has a NEC #3 chip #1.

The CLD-R7G is offered on eBay from Japan only for $520 to $800 (5 units). The HLD-X0 is offered on eBay from Japan only for $3,000 to $3,600 (2 units).
The avg. delta between the two players is $2,640 so comparing apples to apples if I kick out the MUSE function of the HLD-X0 and the dual sided play of the CLD-R7G what is the difference between to two players?

Downside on the HLD-X0 is that it will not fit in my Strong FS Series 27U AV rack it would have to set on top. Player is 18.5” wide and my rack shelf is 17.5” wide. The CLD-R7G is 16.5” wide.
Author:  dennish [ 19 Feb 2022, 18:31 ]
Post subject:  Re: Need advice on a LD player upgrade
The HLD-X9 measures in at 17.3" wide so this player fits my AV rack, really haven't done any research on this player.

Found this:

The HLD-X9 is Pioneer's last Muse Hi-Vision LD player, only sold in Japan and never exported officially. Muse high definition discs, due to their very high density, require to be read by a laser beam of shorter wave-length than regular LDs: the 670nm red laser of the X9 not only plays Hi-Vision, but was also described as reading standard NTSC LDs better than any non-Muse player can, seeing through rot, better tracking defective discs ! It easily beats all models that ever were on sale in North America or Europe, including the Elite CLD-97 and CLD-99, thanks also to the use of an advanced, second generation High Resolution 3D Y-C separation filter. This player only handles LDs (12" and 8"), not CDs nor DVDs, and the clamping mechanism is optimized for this duty, instead of being a compromise between all formats. On CAV discs, access to individual picture fields is possible (half a frame), giving crisp, non flickering pause and step modes. On CLV discs, it will display the frame number (from 0 to 29) and the field (1 or 2). If you have a large collection of LD or plan buying Hi-Vision discs, this is the player you need. Needless to say, it has all possible outputs (two sets of S, composite, stereo; AC-3 RF; coaxial and optical; 2 Muse). Remote and all screen info in English. Only weak point is the rather slow side change (no "quick turn" mode).

Ebay examples seen to be priced in the $2,000 range and also from Japan. Production years were 1996 to 2002
Author:  laserfanhld-gb [ 19 Feb 2022, 19:07 ]
Post subject:  Re: Need advice on a LD player upgrade
Simple answer from me is if you already have a VP50 on its way then save yourself a lot of time money and effort and just focus on finding a nice R7G (or as ldfan suggested an S9) forget the X9 its comb filter isn’t on a par with the 7G. On the other hand if you intend at some point to replace with a DVDO Edge or Duo or even Lumagen 2144 (good luck finding one!) then its a different story but also a very much more expensive one. Trust us on the 7G, coupled with the VP50 it will give you by far the best bangs for your buck!
Author:  dennish [ 19 Feb 2022, 21:00 ]
Post subject:  Re: Need advice on a LD player upgrade
Thanks for the feedback, my OCD lends to me over analyzing everything I warp my brain around in this hobby. I agree dollar for dollar the R7G is a good choice.
Author:  dennish [ 19 Feb 2022, 23:25 ]
Post subject:  Re: Need advice on a LD player upgrade
I have located both Pioneer LD-S9 and CLD-R7G in North America, cost point and condition (very good) is about the same.
Author:  rein-o [ 19 Feb 2022, 23:40 ]
Post subject:  Re: Need advice on a LD player upgrade
dennish wrote:
I have located both Pioneer LD-S9 and CLD-R7G in North America, cost point and condition (very good) is about the same.

Get the R7G you can cannibalize parts from more players than the S9 for the future.
Also as a past owner of an R7G I can say its easier to get to adjusting and fixing if you haven't done it before.
Author:  ldfan [ 21 Feb 2022, 00:07 ]
Post subject:  Re: Need advice on a LD player upgrade
dennish wrote:
If I'm understanding all this correctly the laser reads the information on the laserdisc and sends that to the Y/C separators or comb filter where magic happens than the information is sent to both the Composite out and S-Video out???????????


True on models from the CLD-D703 and later.

Before that, I believe the S-Video signal was derived after the composite signal was processed. And these are the players where the S-Video signal is always more inferior than the composite so you should always use the latter in most cases.

dennish wrote:
On older Flat screens I recall seeing.
Composite - Good
S-Video - Better
HDMI - Best


Yes. That is the general rule of thumb for just about every other source except LD (even S-VHS definitely looks better on S-Video since the luminance & chrominance data are stored separately from one another on the tape). In addition, you are missing "Component Video" that falls between S-Video & HDMI.

dennish wrote:
So the $100 question is should I use Composite or S-Video out of the DVL-909 and into the VP-50 Pro?


It depends. Try both and see how it looks to you. I don't know what type of Y/C Separator is used on the DVL-909 but I think I recall it might be similar to the VP50's comb filter. So both could look the same and if that was the case I might say go S-Video just to avoid double processing.
Author:  shopkins82 [ 25 Feb 2022, 19:20 ]
Post subject:  Re: Need advice on a LD player upgrade
I have a D704 I'm ready to part with... I'm about 30 miles across the AL/GA border right off I-20. It's working great, I'm just done with LD. Sounds like you don't need it, but I have a Denon AVD2000 demod/decoder as well, and around 50 discs you're welcome to peruse too.
Author:  substance [ 25 Feb 2022, 20:32 ]
Post subject:  Re: Need advice on a LD player upgrade
I know these 2005-2008 era AVS threads. I was there. I am substance pretty much everywhere except on AVS where I have a different username. I can tell you most of what was discussed there is now out of date. 2017+ era TVs are much better. You should not need an in-between device any longer unless you want the best of the best which will cost you more than what you paid for your TV and some more. Even then it will be a marginal improvement.

The players discussed on here are very good. I would put CLD-97 higher on your list and add DVL-H9 somewhere near R7G. AC-3 is highly overrated in my opinion. Titles with AC-3 are all available on Blu-ray for much cheaper with immensely better video and sound. LPCM soundtracks are which Laserdiscs offer something interesting even today.
Page 2 of 3 All times are UTC [ DST ]
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/