I have been an audiophile for years. I have a new friend with an opera laserdisc collection. I had a blast watching and listening to his Met opera discs last week. I was surprised that the Laserdiscs seemed to have better sonics than many CD's or DVD's. I have just ordered a collection of opera LD from Craigslist. The problem is that I don't have a player. I would like a nice picture but really looking for the best sonics possible. It seems that the Pioneer Elite 97 is very well thought of here. I have been reading about the incredible Muse players but am wondering whether the Pioneer 97 would be a good starting point? Should I go lower in the food chain to get my feet wet. I would think that a player that would flip the disc would be something that would desirable. Is there anywhere to buy these machines that have been looked at by a technician.

Any and all comments would be appreciated. Bob

Contact Kurtis Bahr (krbahr here on the forums) or Duncan at Bayiew Electronics (who's fixed my player before).

Also, I don't know how much research you've done, but I'll recommend this just in case. You should check out this guide for tips on how to get a good LD image on a modern fixed pixel display.

Are you using an external DAC or one built into an AVR? If so, then the good news is that all you have to do for best sound is just get any LD player with an optical digital output. Just about any LD player will have above average sound used this way.

Video is another matter. Assuming you've thrown away your CRT things are going to get complicated...

I've dealt with Duncan of Bayview Electronics and can recommend him wholeheartedly. He added an AC-3 RF output to my Panasonic LX-900u player and also realigned/recalibrated the optics to eliminate all crosstalk on CLV discs plus he cleaned and lubricated everything and replaced the loading belt. It cost me $130 and the player now has a better picture than it did before and AC-3 LaserDisc's play flawlessly through the Dolby Digital decoder in my Denon receiver. The new RCA jack he added for the AC-3 RF output looks like it came built into the player - I've posted a picture of it below so you can see his modification work. You won't be disappointed if you buy a player from Duncan.

Whatever player you buy, make sure it has a coax or optical digital output so you can use an outboard digital converter. Modern DA converters have far surpassed those in LaserDisc players, which are now over 10 years old - and except for a few models - were never that good to begin with. If you want a player that has an AT&T Glass optical output you will have to buy one of the "high end" players, such as the Runco LJR I and it's replacement, the THX certified LJR II. Some of the models from Theta, EAD, MSB and Faroudja also offered the AT&T option. In most cases, except for the Runco, MSB and Faroudja, the video quality and features are lackluster since VERY low cost Philips/Magnavox players were typically used. The Runco's and MSB LS-2 Platinum had very good video quality - not as good as Pioneers very best, but very close and the very best of the non-Pioneer designed and built players - because the Runco's and MSB used the Panasonic LX-900 LD player as its starting point, with a low cost board added to the video output to fix the Panasonic's variable video level, the 900 can basically be considered to be the same player, especially if your television has Dynamic Contrast, which does the same thing the MSB board did to undo the black level changes - unlike the Runco/MSB players, the LX-900 only has a Toslink optical digital output, so if you want coax or AC-3 from it you'll need to have the player modded. Other than that single video output board and the audio modifications, there were no changes or additions made to the circuits of the 900 - THX gave their blessing, basically, to the stock LX-900 player - in fact, I was told by MSB that the THX specs were designed around the performance of the LX-900! The plain 900's only 'fault' was it didn't have the $6,000 price tag and hefty weight of the Runco. MSB did both the design and actual mods to the LX-900 for Runco and as stated above, sold the player under their own MSB label, just without THX certification - but with much better styling. For some odd reason, both MSB and Runco players removed the Jog/Shuttle dial from the front of the player, along with the direct access number keys. Besides Runco, MSB also did the video engineering for Theta, Faroudja and EAD on their players that incorporated upgrades to the video sections, although the upgrades were mostly replacement of stock parts with things like high speed opamps, tighter tolerance resistors, etc, in addition to adding the AT&T optical output. The Faroudja and one of the EAD models used the Pioneer Elite CLD-99 For its base player, keeping its, for the time, amazing 3D comb filter. But that comb filter is a poor performer now and since the 99 was just a more expensive version of the CLD-704, you are better off buying that if you can get one. The very best American combination player made was the Pioneer Elite CLD-97 - it even has auto-reverse. The very best single sided, LaserDisc-only player was the Pioneer Elite LD-S2, a player so good, and built so well, it was used as the basis of Pioneers MUSE Hi-Vision players. The LD-S2 was actually more of an engineering 'stunt' to see how far the engineers could push the LaserDisc formats performance. They knew it wouldn't sell in huge numbers, but it's technology, like digitizing the video for noise reduction and time-base correction, as well as adaptive 2D comb filtering, trickled down to lower cost players.

Here's a picture of the AC-3 RF output that Duncan (Bayview Electronics) added to my Panasonic LX-900 LaserDisc/CD player:

Wow. That does look pro!

Yes, I've been totally thrilled with it and still marvel at how good his work is. Plus, the RF out works just like the "real" AC-3 RF out on my DVL-700, properly muting and unmuting when pausing or using FX, etc. and my Sony SDP-EP9ES demodulator has never had a single problem locking up to its signal, nor have I ever heard any of the chirps, drop-outs or unwanted noises that I've read about with other after-market AC-3 mods. He uses the Pioneer chip, so it's the same circuit as used in Pioneer models with AC-3 built in. Duncan did such great work on my Panasonic, and at such a fair price, that I can't wait until I have enough money to have my DVL-700 refurbished by him. It needs the laser optics realigned and possibly a new spindle motor as well as loading belt and rubber disc mat.

I'm also going to buy an LX-900 that has minor problems to use as a parts machine in case Duncan needs to repair mine in the future since parts are no longer available.

I've been more than happy with my minor investment in the Panasonic - it beats the pants off every other player I own - the only better players are a very few Elite models which I'll never be able to afford unless someone gives me a CLD-97 or I win lotto - and I don't play lotto.

HLD MUSE player have multi-bit best in class(at the time) dacs. They dont play CDs and CDVs. Most of those opera discs you mention are 12" CDV discs. Although Muse players would give you the best sound and video for laserdisc, they are not the best players for you. CLD-97 on the other hand will play everything except muse discs. CLD-95 is a little older than 97 with lesser picture quality but have the multibit dacs. CLD-97 has single bit burr browns. 95 sounds warmer due to multibit dacs. If sound quality is your piority and only after above average picture, Philips CDV-488 is a great player. it uses Philips TDA 1541A-S1 Select Grade 16bit 4X oversampling D to A converters. You are an audiophile you must have heard of these. It is a fully analog player with very pure video out. there is a switch on it that you can defeat all digital processing except TBS. I am not sure if it uses analog type TBS or digital. It is not a very well known player so you can find it cheap next to nothing.
If you are going to use an outboard DAC then follow disclords advice. Runco, Panny 900u, Pio 97, MSB, Faroudja players are very good. You will see panny 900u and cld-97 for sale more often as they are not as rare as those butique players. Pioneer still provides parts so can be repaired. Panny stopped support long ago.

I also greatly recommend buying your player form duncan or kbahr. or send your unit in for alignment and tweaks. I know Kbahr uses philips cdv-488 as second player to cld-97. you can ask him about its performance.

The Philips 488 uses an analog CCD based TBC. It's digital circuitry rolls off the high frequencies slightly, softening the picture a tiny bit when compared to the non-processed image. I had one for many years and really liked it, especially the remote. The only thing I didn't like was the picture had higher noise in the dark parts of the image, something Joe Kane confirmed in tests of the 488.

so i have a question.
i have an CLD-R7G which i think is a great player.
but why is it that everybody always skips this one??
when i sent it to duncan to get repaired he said something that people prefer the picture of the R7G
over some other higher end players, or something like that.

i know it has nothing to do with value, as i've seen other players sell for close or more to the value of the R7G.

so did i miss something? or is it just harder to find so nobody talks about it?

It supposedly uses the power supply of a CLD-D606

o.k. so it uses the same power supply, i'm sure this is not the only LD player ever made in the world that uses the same power supply.

but why does it get passed by when people are asking for a good player?

Well, I don't have a R7G, so I'm only basing this off of what I've read, but I'd assume the CLD-D606 power supply (thus one would assume, similar noise levels) would put it below the usual LD player recommendations (you know, like the CLD-D704, LX-900, CLD-97, etc.)

R7G and S9 reads LD-G text as well if you are planning to import japanese lds. S9 I believe will not read CDV and CDs. I dont know if R7G reads CDVs. Where are you located? I know someone local who might be selling his Philips CDV-488. Last time I spoke with him he was looking to get $20-40 bucks for it. This is a single side player but very musical.

Do not really want to get into this again as there are people that think this is the best player as it has the most advanced 3D Adaptive filter Pioneer put into a LD player. It is basically a CLD-59 with the upgraded 3D Adaptive filter and Pioneer did sharpen the picture with the R7G over the 59 so it is an improvement over the 59. In my mind a good player but I have a lot of players I'd rather own.

Now my preferences are for a natural non-digitized picture, smooth film-like background. This comes with the power supply and board design. The LD-S2, HLD-X0, CLD-95 and CLD-97 are the machines I really like and I personally prefer a CLD-97 in my system.

If you like the DVD looking digitized picture then the R7G should be looked at but I'd rather own a CLD-D704 as I have a Pioneer Elite Plasma and the 3D Adaptive filter in that is newer than the one in the R7G.

When you start comparing the higher end players you are now getting into personal preferences. I accept others love the R7G, I have worked on one and formed my opinion from that one.

If you use an external DAC then you just need the PCM output. If you are using the LD Audio Outputs then if you like Multi-bit DACs verses bit-stream then the player to get are the CLD-95, HLD-X0, HLD-X9, or LD-S2. My best Audio player is a CDV-488 which I removed the output decoupling caps after I balanced the DAC output to get 0VDC offset. This opened the top end.

An incredible machine is the HLD-X0 if you can afford it.

BTW if you want more opera LDs I have some I'd sell.

i don't have much in the way of saying one player is better than the other but the ones i have had.
i've only ever had 4 players, 2 were older than the R7G and one was the DVD/LD combo.

so are you saying that you prefer players like the CLD-95 and 97 since they were older and don't have as much digital parts inside?
more of like an analog system inside so there is less filtering etc?

and you mention the digitized picture like a DVD?
when i had the CLD-3070 and the R7G playing side by side i felt that the picture was sharper on the R7G.
but i didn't and still don't really notice it being more DVD like.

i don't want to cause any issues but i just want to know for myself.
thanks,

The older players had digital parts in them also. The difference is Pioneer with designs like the HLD-X0, LD-S2, CLD-95, CLD-97 built quality linear power supplies which are lower noise than the newer switching power supplies but run hotter and take up more space and designed the other boards to minimize noise. The newer players use switching supplies and have decent board lay-outs but not as high end as the previous mentioned players. Then Pioneer depended on DNR to lower the visual noise levels. Understand about this time the dollar verses yen dropped so the Pioneer had to find ways to manufacturer and still ask the same price. Switching power supplies are cheaper to make, output less heat, and take less space. The issue I have is they inject more noise in an analog world, they are great for digital.

What I'm saying is if you like the analog filmlike look the X0, S2, 95, 97 are the way to go. If you like the Digital look the newer players are fine. It's all personal preference.

I have a professional power conditioner that uses "virtual battery" technology to feed power to the outlets, completely decoupling anything connected to it from the AC wall outlet and any noise present in the power line. I've never used it until today, so I decided to see if it would make any differemce and I hooked my Panasonic LX-900 to it and have been totally amazed at the lowered luminance noise - while the actual effect is different, the resulting drop in visual noise is like going from no noise reduction to the Mode 2 setting of the 900's Digital Field Noise Reduction. I can't believe that the power source could make such a difference. Chroma noise is likewise reduced slightly but it made absolutely no difference in picture sharpness.

Since the power conditioner has 3 outlets on it I've also plugged my Pioneer LD-1100 top-loading LD player and Denon AVR-3808 receiver to it. The 1100 showed an improvement too, although not as great - I assume because the improvement in noise on the 900 was reduced high frequency luma and chroma noise and the 1100 only has a 4.2MHz bandwidth, so there's no high frequency noise to reduce.

I was given the power conditioner and it cost over $400 but I wish I had more so all my equipment could be run from one - the improvement is that visible and dramatic.

oh, o.k.
unfortunatly the X0 and S9 are out of my price range and even if i do have the money
i will never get them since i have other things to put that money towards.

as for the 95 and 97 i'll keep an eye out for a cheap one to see if i like it better.
i've always been happy with the R7G but i understand what you are saying,
also it's easier now to get players to test them side by side and sell if you don't like one.

Really? I've been curious about power conditioners for a while, but I've never given them a shot because I read a lot of conflicting opinions. What was the power conditioner and do you leave in an old house?