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 Post subject: My Pioneer CLD-D925
PostPosted: 28 Sep 2011, 17:53 
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This was my first ever player. I won it in an eBay auction in early May of last year. It came in a well looked after and scratch-free condition, likewise the remote was also pristine. Clearly it had been well maintained. I had done a lot of research for this purchase, my first ever machine, as I wanted it to...

Be PAL/NTSC capable
Play both sides of a disc
Have a digital optical out
Be AC3 capable
Not require me so sell a kidney

I won this fine machine for £55 (around $90US) and, knowing what postal delivery services are like :thumbdown: I collected it in person. It was not a longh trip, about 40 minutes down the M1 to Milton Keynes and a very pleasant fellow called David. He demo'ed it and all loooked well so back home it came. IT LOOKED MASSIVE sitting next to my son on the back seat of the car!!!!

I have not looked back since. I now have a total of 9 machines. Two are in set-ups and working every few days each, three are straight swap-outs should anything go wrong with my current machines, three are 'functional in themselves but bought really to be broken for spares should the need arise' and one is a 'still gives AC3, NTSC and BOTH SIDES' last resort spare. I have a Meridian 519 Demod and a spare Yamaha demod. Now, not any one of my machines can be considered 'reference' 'Elite' LD-S' or 'LD-X class, being mainly from the upper mid-range, but I would not change them, and I do not for one second regret buying them.

In service I currently have my Pioneer DVL-909 and the aforementioned CLD-D925.

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 Post subject: Re: My Pioneer CLD-D925
PostPosted: 28 Sep 2011, 19:54 
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I've always liked the Pioneer CLD-D925 model and builtup a decent stockpile of that machine myself.

Currently I have:
Seven Pioneer 925's
Four Pioneer 909's
One Pioneer 919
Two Pioneer 2950's (one needs a bit of tuning)
One Pioneer 780 (that died a few months ago!!)
One Sony MDP 850D

My favourite everyday player would be the 925 although the build quality finish on the later models such as the 909 etc is vastly superior.
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 Post subject: Re: My Pioneer CLD-D925
PostPosted: 28 Sep 2011, 23:14 
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I had a CLD-925 for a really long period of time, bought brand new when it was just released.
And I always thought "this is as good as it can possibly get"...
So at some point I had heard that better quality players are available outside of europe...
It took quite a while and a truckload of money and I ended up buying a HLD-X9.
And the difference it made, in terms of picture quality on my, at that time, tiny 28" CRT...
It was so huge a difference that I never switched on the CLD-925 ever again, and I never regret
selling it on ebay either.

If you need PAL playback the 925 might be the player for you.
If you are looking for anything else, the 925 is a HUGE letdown.
As is probably any other player ever sold in europe compared to the high spec models from japan.

Cheers!
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 Post subject: Re: My Pioneer CLD-D925
PostPosted: 29 Sep 2011, 08:40 
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lons_vex wrote:
I had a CLD-925 for a really long period of time, bought brand new when it was just released.
And I always thought "this is as good as it can possibly get"...
So at some point I had heard that better quality players are available outside of europe...

It took quite a while and a truckload of money and I ended up buying a HLD-X9.

And the difference it made, in terms of picture quality on my, at that time, tiny 28" CRT...
It was so huge a difference that I never switched on the CLD-925 ever again, and I never regret
selling it on ebay either.

If you need PAL playback the 925 might be the player for you.
If you are looking for anything else, the 925 is a HUGE letdown.
As is probably any other player ever sold in europe compared to the high spec models from japan.

Cheers!


Quote:
Not require me so sell a kidney


Not in your position I am afraid. I would never (figuritively and literally) be able to justify a huge outlay for just a single item like that...it would take more time than I would want to wait and we have too many other things that need doing which consume our funds, now if I were to win the EURO-Lottery mind (looks for the 'Fingers Crossed' smiley).... ;)

Like I implied, we all know that the favoured 'ELITES', S2s, X9s and the X0s are the best of the best, but you may be surprised at the number of arguments I have read between owners of said machines about which one is 'THE' best, and as it is a conversation that I shall not be taking part in any time soon (still looking for that smiley :( ) I tend not to take too much notice of it all.

Likewiswe (and don't take this personally, it's not really aimed specifically at you as you have actually found this through real personal experience) but there just seems to be far too much of a "If a player is PAL/European, then it must be rubbish" attitude displayed on forums. And it always seems to come from just one side of 'the water'.

The truth is...There were (still are) far too many PAL only + PAL/NTSC machines available for them all to just be rubbish. My reasoning being thus...If a machine outputs pure NTSC out (eg, the 2950 which is still a good seller and a fan favourite and likewise my 925 - both machine which in reviews are described as showing the "full resolution" of Laserdisc) , surely the things that are really going to then make a picture difference will be...

1) The quality of the transmission cable used (on analogue systems, this does make a difference).
2) The quality of the monitor screen used
3) The way in which that monitor is calibrated
4) The quality of the mastering of the disc being played.

I just don't take any notice of the general "It's A European Machine...It Must Be Rubbish" argument.
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 Post subject: Re: My Pioneer CLD-D925
PostPosted: 29 Sep 2011, 09:35 
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Quote:
1) The quality of the transmission cable used (on analogue systems, this does make a difference).
2) The quality of the monitor screen used
3) The way in which that monitor is calibrated
4) The quality of the mastering of the disc being played.

I just don't take any notice of the general "It's A European Machine...It Must Be Rubbish" argument.


Believe me I've been through all that before I opted to invest money and import a machine.
I was using super expensive a/v cables always, and if you confess doing so, ppl usually say "omg what an idiot wasting money on troll cables and voodoo"...
With the CLD-925, as long as you have not seen the magic a japanese model can do, you will simply think "yeah man thats the optimum video performance".
Even with $1,000 svideo/cvbs cables if you wish to try. I had a CLD-2850 before I bought the CLD-925 btw, and I have seen countless other european models
in action (2950, 1950, the DVL units, some SONY stuff...).

Points 2 and 3 don't count as I was using the same display with both players.
Point 4... if you try the same disc on both players, that doesn't really count either.

Also to experience this magic you don't exactly need to opt for an X0 or X9, but an S9 or even a CLD-R7G will show you the light at the end of the rainbow.
(No I am not saying they all perform the same, but they all outperform a 925 easily, without even having to try hard).
The thing is... it was just a SHOCKING EXPERIENCE when I put the first LD into the X9, after being used the the (and at the time thinking "this is it")
925 performance, and then seeing WHAT WAS POSSIBLE to get out of these anlaog video 480i discs.
My favorite thing to do was this: I had two copies of the "Video Essentials LD".
I'd insert them in both players at the same time and go to the same chapter (showing color bars): Even blind ppl could see a huge difference right away.
I have one local buddy who is also into LD, and I asked him to come over and bring his fave discs along (we put in The Matrix first) and to say "he fell from
the chair after seeing the picture" is no ex-aggregation. He bought an S9 the day after, and has a HLD-1000 now.
There is a funny video on youtube about color bars performance test on players, I should try to find that again.

The endless discussion about "which high-end model gives the best performance" is something that never struck me.
The X0 is so expensive that I was simply never in the position to buy one, the ELITE models can't play MUSE discs, so can't the Runco units.
I have seen the SONY and Panasonic MUSE Players at my friends place and wasn't very impressed with them (Tho they easily beat any european model I have seen).
I have another buddy (which I never met in person) who was going your route: He has been buying all the players he could get his hands on, a brand new unused 925
for a really sick price, a DVL-909 etc... and then he bought a HLD-X9 and has not touched the 909 or 925 ever since.

Now you can see it this way of course: We are all a bunch of trolls. The CLD-925 has the exact same video performance as the X9 or X0.
We just want to justify spending so much money on outdated hardware.
If you think that way, you can surely spent your life in happiness. :)
But from my personal experience it is like this: "It's A European Machine...Too bad they only made rubbish for our market".
Yes I am a euro bloke too, but I don't have any PAL discs left in my collection.
And yes it is the same resolution indeed. But as you mentioned earlier, it is analog video.
With analog video many factors can make a huge difference.
Not only av cables, but the hardware used INSIDE the player will do the magic.


Anyways you can help the 925's performance big time when using a plasma/lcd screen if you opt to buy a scaler.
Tho the discussion about scalers usually ends the same way the discussion for high end stuff goes "too expensive" - "i don't believe in the performance" etc...
The difference in terms of picture quality was easy to spot on a CRT screen, or using a beamer.
If you use a good quality scaler with a LCD/Plasma, you can get a much better video performance from your CLD-925 unit.
Have a look at Radiance, VP50 Pro or Crystallio 2 discussions in forums.
Maybe read about these topics a bit and check used market prices.

Cheers!
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 Post subject: Re: My Pioneer CLD-D925
PostPosted: 29 Sep 2011, 17:19 
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Thanks for replying so quickly LV, like I said...it was not aimed at you specifically just because of your personal experiences. you have actually done it and seen it.

Your opinion is worth more to me coming as it does from personal testing and experience. Not the case with all folks though. It's an attitude that rankles me because I know that, unlike yourself, they cannot all have tried it. Yet you'd be hard pressed to find a US enthusiast that would vouchsafe a UK machine.

Still, as to the differences in PQ between the shores...I ask myself, Why would one of the top, prestige electronics manufacturors IN THE WORLD deliberately produce such an huge disparity between the mid-range machines in the UK and the US? It is utterly bizarre. Furthermore...why would the review magazines have missed such an obvious difference?

Also, is it actually entirely fair to compare the output of a 925/2950 with an S2,S9 or an X9? Because personally, I would place them above even the Elites in my expectations.

But let's not make any mistakes here...I love my 925, my 2950 and my 909. I just love having them. I have ZERO intentions of ever getting rid of them. They give me pictures which I can watch and titles which which will probably not even see DVD, let alone Bluray. Surely that is the main point of it all anyway? But I am not under any misapprehension or fooling myself...if I won the lottery I would also get a 'high end' player too...because I would expect the picture to be better to justify the extra cost.
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 Post subject: Re: My Pioneer CLD-D925
PostPosted: 29 Sep 2011, 20:46 
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For me the stockpiling of modest priced second hand players is both fun and practical.
Those players were manufactured in much higher volumes so are far easier to obtain than any high end player. This is not just about price - it is about availability and spares.
Ultimately all players will eventually breakdown no matter what the price. I've heard many sob stories from X0 and X9 owners whose players let them down big time and the bills were absolutely ridiculous to get them repaired. In one case the repair centre told the owner to never return again. That is what I call service!!

Many high end Japanese models can only be repaired in Japan and that may not even be possible now that Pioneer has pulled the plug on laserdisc.
The situation is similiar closer to home except that players like the 925 etc are still relatively plentiful even 14 years after that model was officially discontinued.
They are cheap to pickup and can be shipped to any location in the UK inexpensively. Try doing that with an X0 shipped from Japan which weighs 36kg, needs voltage conversion, will incur hefty import duty fees and may still arrive broken! You'll then need to ship it back with the same hit x 2 for the return journey assuming it can even be fixed.

Even a millionaire is unlikely to be stockpiling X0's or X9's but they may need to if they want to be able to play their LDs in the same quality they have become accustomed to.
My total expenditure on 16 LD players wouldn't even come to £1000 but that will provide decades of guaranteed playback no matter what happens and I will not need to remortgage my house either!
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 Post subject: Re: My Pioneer CLD-D925
PostPosted: 27 Oct 2011, 23:46 
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i as well was not impressed with the badmouthing of PAL machines...yet I needed one so i bought the 925...my main machine is an LD-S9 so I'm spoiled.....but i was pleasantly suprised by the 925....... its got a great front...sounds great,and the picture is miles better than the previous pal machine I attempted to use..... i watch ntsc films on it as well and its OK...does its job...and i can swear looks better than the DVL-919 i got rid of as well!!!!

there is no better PAL machine.....right!??????????
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 Post subject: Re: My Pioneer CLD-D925
PostPosted: 28 Oct 2011, 22:51 
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Though I have never seen one, for years the 925 has been mentioned as the best PAL LD player. I do not know why but Pioneer never made a PAL equivalent to the CLD-D703/704. I also have no trouble believing the 925 is as good as or better than the DVL machines as the LD section in those was equivalent to the US players below the CLD-D704 model.
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 Post subject: Re: My Pioneer CLD-D925
PostPosted: 19 Dec 2012, 10:37 
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How did you connect the LD player to the Flat TV !!

I got a new Philips and the SCART is used by the Reveiver VHS DVD etc ...

How can I Connect them, with a HDMI to SCART cable ?
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 Post subject: Re: My Pioneer CLD-D925
PostPosted: 19 Dec 2012, 10:40 
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moon-child-1982 wrote:
How did you connect the LD player to the Flat TV !!

I got a new Philips and the SCART is used by the Reveiver VHS DVD etc ...

How can I Connect them, with a HDMI to SCART cable ?


Connect your LD player via SCART to back of DVD recorder.
Then connect DVD player via HDMI directly to TV or receiver going to TV.
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 Post subject: Re: My Pioneer CLD-D925
PostPosted: 19 Dec 2012, 10:55 
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Quote:
Connect your LD player via SCART to back of DVD recorder.
Then connect DVD player via HDMI directly to TV or receiver going to TV.


I connetect on Scart: VHS->SAT->DVD
my DVD is from 2002 and has only one Scart, there is the end of the road.

maybe possible to conect the LD player with Component Video
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Component_video
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 Post subject: Re: My Pioneer CLD-D925
PostPosted: 10 Jan 2013, 23:23 
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krbahr wrote:
Though I have never seen one, for years the 925 has been mentioned as the best PAL LD player. I do not know why but Pioneer never made a PAL equivalent to the CLD-D703/704. I also have no trouble believing the 925 is as good as or better than the DVL machines as the LD section in those was equivalent to the US players below the CLD-D704 model.


The CLD-925 and CLD-2950 are indeed the best PAL-Players. The 925 is based on japanese CLD-R4 and the CLD-2950 looks like an european-ized CLD-703.
Both are good players and better than the DVL-9x9. In comparison to the japanese and US players they're only average, cause the PAL market was the niche inside the niche, and so no real progress in quality was made.

And the discs were far too expensive for the delivered quality, in most cases double or triple and even more than the price of the vhs version
(e.g. star wars - special edition VHS gold box 99 DEM vs. star wars special edition LD gold box 499 DEM -> #LDDB=37674).
Also most of the discs look like crap, more like the same mastertapes were used for ld and vhs production, not using the enhanced quality and bandwidth
PAL laserdiscs were capable of. The few releases of squeezed and PALplus Laserdiscs were a total disappointment in terms of quality improvement.

Another point was the content released on the discs, only a small amount of real blockbusters, many B and C Movies, many horror, zombie and cannibal movies from the 70's and 80's and many concerts of classic music. Mostly identical to vhs versions without any additional features like the signature or criterion collections have.

So the PAL market thwarted itself through wrong release politic, illusive pricing and only little effort in improving quality of discs and players.

Very sad to think about.

The argument -> "It's A European Machine...It Must Be Rubbish" is not really fair but not really wrong.


It's like everywhere ... important decisions are always made by idiots that have no knowledge and sense about the things they have to decide about ...
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 Post subject: Re: My Pioneer CLD-D925
PostPosted: 10 Jan 2013, 23:59 
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laser_cinema wrote:
Also most of the discs look like crap, more like the same mastertapes were used for ld and vhs production, not using the enhanced quality and bandwidth
PAL laserdiscs were capable of. The few releases of squeezed and PALplus Laserdiscs were a total disappointment in terms of quality improvement.

FWIW, the THX PAL releases of the original unaltered Star Wars trilogy are much better than their NTSC counterparts. There's very little DVNR-smear and the additional vertical resolution helps to keep the starfields stable and mostly non-blinking.

The 1995 NTSC THX release (a.k.a., "Faces") suffers from terrible DVNR-smear since it uses the same master* as the 1993 Definitive Collection. Furthermore, the lower amount of vertical resolution results in blinking starfields due to telecine wobble/gate weave causing the same stars in different frames to "slip through the cracks".

*Actually, some scenes were replaced with ones from another master to get rid of the split lightsabers seen in the 1993 Definitive Collection.
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 Post subject: Re: My Pioneer CLD-D925
PostPosted: 11 Jan 2013, 02:00 
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acuozzo wrote:
laser_cinema wrote:
Also most of the discs look like crap, more like the same mastertapes were used for ld and vhs production, not using the enhanced quality and bandwidth
PAL laserdiscs were capable of. The few releases of squeezed and PALplus Laserdiscs were a total disappointment in terms of quality improvement.

FWIW, the THX PAL releases of the original unaltered Star Wars trilogy are much better than their NTSC counterparts. There's very little DVNR-smear and the additional vertical resolution helps to keep the starfields stable and mostly non-blinking.

The 1995 NTSC THX release (a.k.a., "Faces") suffers from terrible DVNR-smear since it uses the same master* as the 1993 Definitive Collection. Furthermore, the lower amount of vertical resolution results in blinking starfields due to telecine wobble/gate weave causing the same stars in different frames to "slip through the cracks".

*Actually, some scenes were replaced with ones from another master to get rid of the split lightsabers seen in the 1993 Definitive Collection.


But they are 4% speeded up which is unbearable - its no different than time compressed films. If more PAL film transfers used 12/13 pulldown the speed up wouldn't be necessary. But 4% speed up is the quick and dirty way to do it.
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 Post subject: Re: My Pioneer CLD-D925
PostPosted: 11 Jan 2013, 02:29 
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disclord wrote:
But they are 4% speeded up which is unbearable - its no different than time compressed films. If more PAL film transfers used 12/13 pulldown the speed up wouldn't be necessary. But 4% speed up is the quick and dirty way to do it.

True, but the speed-up is done in hardware, so there isn't any frame-blending like on time-compressed NTSC LDs.

This makes them great for capturing because they're fully progressive; no IVTC required!
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 Post subject: Re: My Pioneer CLD-D925
PostPosted: 11 Jan 2013, 07:53 
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laser_cinema wrote:

Another point was the content released on the discs, only a small amount of real blockbusters, many B and C Movies, many horror, zombie and cannibal movies from the 70's and 80's and many concerts of classic music. Mostly identical to vhs versions without any additional features like the signature or criterion collections have.


I think for some people that is one of the key reasons for buying PAL LDs. Who wants another edition of another blockbuster like Speed or Jurassic Park when you could buy some really interesting B movies or better still a rare music concert. That is exactly what I want so that is a plus in my books not a negative!
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 Post subject: Re: My Pioneer CLD-D925
PostPosted: 11 Jan 2013, 23:35 
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laserdisc_fan wrote:
laser_cinema wrote:

Another point was the content released on the discs, only a small amount of real blockbusters, many B and C Movies, many horror, zombie and cannibal movies from the 70's and 80's and many concerts of classic music. Mostly identical to vhs versions without any additional features like the signature or criterion collections have.


I think for some people that is one of the key reasons for buying PAL LDs. Who wants another edition of another blockbuster like Speed or Jurassic Park when you could buy some really interesting B movies or better still a rare music concert. That is exactly what I want so that is a plus in my books not a negative!


That's one of the reasons I'd like to have a PAL player - to buy all the B films released on disc in PAL. I heard that the DVL-909 played PAL discs straight without conversion - is that true, or will I have to buy a DVL-919e or a pure PAL player?
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 Post subject: Re: My Pioneer CLD-D925
PostPosted: 12 Jan 2013, 00:22 
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disclord wrote:
laserdisc_fan wrote:
laser_cinema wrote:

Another point was the content released on the discs, only a small amount of real blockbusters, many B and C Movies, many horror, zombie and cannibal movies from the 70's and 80's and many concerts of classic music. Mostly identical to vhs versions without any additional features like the signature or criterion collections have.


I think for some people that is one of the key reasons for buying PAL LDs. Who wants another edition of another blockbuster like Speed or Jurassic Park when you could buy some really interesting B movies or better still a rare music concert. That is exactly what I want so that is a plus in my books not a negative!


That's one of the reasons I'd like to have a PAL player - to buy all the B films released on disc in PAL. I heard that the DVL-909 played PAL discs straight without conversion - is that true, or will I have to buy a DVL-919e or a pure PAL player?

I'd like to know the answer to this as well. PAL LD players are impossible to find in the USA and I've wanted one for some time now.
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 Post subject: Re: My Pioneer CLD-D925
PostPosted: 12 Jan 2013, 02:13 
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Quote:
That's one of the reasons I'd like to have a PAL player - to buy all the B films released on disc in PAL. I heard that the DVL-909 played PAL discs straight without conversion - is that true, or will I have to buy a DVL-919e or a pure PAL player?



As far as i know only the european versions DVL-909 and DVL-919E are able to play PAL laserdiscs. The us, hong kong and japanese version are only able to play PAL DVD's and NTSC laserdisc.
I don't know of any players outside europe that are able to play PAL laserdiscs. maybe some of the players sold in hong kong could.

My comment about release politics was not meant negative.It was more an expression of sadness that the market in europe was a bit underprivileged compared to the US or Japan.
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