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What brand is your main LD Player?
https://forum.lddb.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=76		 Page 6 of 13
Author:  nissling [ 12 Oct 2014, 16:55 ]
Post subject:  Re: What brand is your main LD Player?
That makes sense. The 3D comb filter on my R7G effect the composite output as textures can look somewhat fuzzy and overall movement isn't very good. The S-video output looks much more pleasing on my setup.
Author:  substance [ 12 Oct 2014, 19:12 ]
Post subject:  Re: What brand is your main LD Player?
On these/most players Y/C separation(comb filter) occurs early in the chain right after ADC(analog to digital convertor). Digitized signal is then fed into TBC(time base corrector). Higher quality players have (DVNR)digital video noise reduction available after TBC. Some players have basic on/off type(i.e. CLD-97) and some have more comprehensive settings(i.e. CLD-704,99 etc.) like multi-step luminance and chrominance noise reduction, sharpness etc.. After this, on simpler players right after TBC, on more advance players right after TBC + DVNR the separated signal is combined again(Y+C) for composite output and kept separate for S-Video output.

In theory, if you separate Y and C and later combine with identical filter(in reverse), the output should be equal to the original(no change) regardless 2D or 3D comb filtering as long as they perform same parameters. Keep in mind that these are digital signal processing(signal is already digitized at the comb filter) therefore you can apply a function and then apply the same function in reverse to come back to the original signal without any loss(cant say the same in analog/continuous time). So given this, 3D comb filter setting or any setting should not have any effect in the composite output since the same setting in reverse will be applied at the end to undo what the first filter did.

Now there is a 3rd option only few players employ. All above process is the same however instead of leaving Y and C separate and directly feeding them into S-video output, some players combine the signal anyway and then employ an additional comb filter here for S-video output. For example CLD-704 has a 2D comb filter to do above process and uses the same type filter to combined for composite output. CLD-99 uses this same exact board but adds a second comb filter(this time 3D comb filter) to separate the once combined signal. SO all early processing(TBC, DVNR, sharpness) happens after and 2D comb and combined with 2D comb again then separated by a 3D comb filter at the end. Some argue this is a design flaw however if above paragraph is true, it shouldn't matter. Why did they chose this way? It was probably cheaper to add a 3D comb at the end then re-designing the entire board around a 3D comb design. Pioneer engineers probably deemed the outcome would come out the same anyway(who are we to argue:)

To answer your question,the 3D comb filter setting on my HLD-X0 has tremendous effect on its S-Video output and no effect in composite output. I use the composite output as I think the 3D comb filter in the Crystalio II is slightly better than the one in HLD-X0. I left the setting at 2 because I have its S-Video output hooked up to a capture card. I hope this helps:)
Author:  nissling [ 13 Oct 2014, 14:01 ]
Post subject:  Re: What brand is your main LD Player?
I was aware of the first and third option but I've never thought of the second one, which I think is what's in the HLD-X0? Great explaination by the way. :)

It's incredibly difficult to judge the picture quality if the video is just a shot of the screen but I can still see how nice the HLD-X0 performs with the CII. There's a VPS-3300 on eBay at the moment that I've thought about buying but I'm not sure at all. I know the 3800 has a built in media player and hard drive but the 3300 would most likely satisfy my needs.
Author:  ffrolvaag [ 06 Nov 2014, 13:51 ]
Post subject:  Re: What brand is your main LD Player?
Mine is the EAD TheaterVision since my CLD-97 needs repair. The EAD is an upgraded CLD-99. As I recall the transport and comb filter were two of the major upgrades. The thing is extremely heavy compared to other players I have.
Author:  happycube [ 06 Nov 2014, 18:07 ]
Post subject:  Re: What brand is your main LD Player?
substance wrote:
On these/most players Y/C separation(comb filter) occurs early in the chain right after ADC(analog to digital convertor). Digitized signal is then fed into TBC(time base corrector).


Actually the ADC and TBC are on the same chip in later players - the Sony 2D comb filter was fed digitally from that chip. Comb filtering pre-TBC'd video would be much trickier as it would have to adapt for different color carrier frequencies. CED players' comb filter (from 1.53 to standard 3.58) had to do in an analog fashion to keep costs down, but such things had no place on a 1990's LD player with S-Video... or a hypothetical 1990's CED player, for that matter :thumbup:

It's possible the NEC 3D filters could do the TBC, but almost certainly not used for that. There's an unstuffed digital output port on the 406/606/R5 board that was probably put there to support the R7G.
Author:  substance [ 06 Nov 2014, 20:23 ]
Post subject:  Re: What brand is your main LD Player?
So true. Most of these functions can be applied in the same chip in digital. Most important point being all happen in digital opposed to common belief laserdisc is all analog.

As long as adc sampling is high it shouldn't matter too much. I think ld needs 13mhz at least.

I am pretty bad in signal processing. I should pick up a book and review it one of these days.

It might be possible to build a daughter board that can be attached to most ld players. It would tap into adc+tbc then into a large enough fpga for 3d comb+dv noise reduction. It would be no issues to feed digital audio into this stream. One could apply another adc and feed analog audio and ac-3 into the sdi stream as it can carry all these formats.

I dont have the time right now but I can work on something like this next summer or following summer.
Author:  happycube [ 06 Nov 2014, 21:24 ]
Post subject:  Re: What brand is your main LD Player?
(edited out bad info) The digital TBC in LD players is 14.318mhz/4fsc, 8 bits (and sometimes 8 bits+sync) - definitely enough to keep an 'analog' look. It's interesting how people underestimate how much digital stuff goes on in LD players - even Kurtis thought the S104 had an analog TBC, but the service manual says otherwise ;)

(For those who do want a simple all-analog player, I recommend the V2400.)

I think the absolute mininum would be around 7.2mhz, but I think you would have problems with it. It's a lot easier to do digital comb filtering at 4fsc/14.3mhz, each pixel is at a consistent 90degree phase of the color data.

The post-TBC tap point would be too late in the chain to help a lot of players - ghosting, ringing and CLV smear are introduced in the analog processing stages. It would still be an improvement, especially if you don't have fancy equipment lying around. For a first pass you could bridge the digital output to USB and then play around with comb/nr codes with quicker turnaround time.

Playing with LD signals is a great way to learn a lot about DSP. :thumbup: I definitely know a lot more now than when I started, but there's so much more to know.

Remind me some time and I can post some post-TBC, pre-comb filtering ouptut from my software project, and some raw composite captures off my (admittedly, somewhat intentionally, mediocre) V2800. You could get your feet wet on creating comb filtering/NR processing with those...
Author:  svwees [ 22 Feb 2015, 21:04 ]
Post subject:  Re: What brand is your main LD Player?
Pioneer CLD D925 as my main player.

(Pioneer CLD D515 as backup and a Philips CDV 185 for the 5"s).
Author:  mayari [ 24 Feb 2015, 13:00 ]
Post subject:  Re: What brand is your main LD Player?
Pioneer CLD-1720K as my main player, looking for a better one to replace it. Someday.
Author:  Guest [ 18 Mar 2015, 00:41 ]
Post subject:  Re: What brand is your main LD Player?
My main LD player at the moment is a Pioneer CDL-D501 that we got as part of a $75 buy it all deal. Needs some tlc and maintenance eventually but, still runs like a champ! Like a 1993 date on the back if I remember right. Our back-up is an LD-V2200 industrial player, it is in for repair very soon but when she worked she was great for an old, school house reject that hadn't been run I who knows how long, and worked up until a couple years ago.
Author:  firehorse_44 [ 18 Mar 2015, 11:56 ]
Post subject:  Re: What brand is your main LD Player?
alien wrote:
firehorse_44 wrote:
Pioneer DVL-919 - Manufactured January 2007 - :ugeek:

Does it actually say "Manufactured January 2007" at the back of the actual player itself? Because I've done a lot of speculating of these 2004 to 2009 manufactured dates of certain models, but I don't think I've heard anyone categorically confirm it with their own players.




Next to the URL tag on the back face it states plainly "January 2007" which obviously implies manufacture period.
Apologies for the late posting to your query alien..........
Care to still share your speculation if still relevant ?
Author:  exorcist [ 17 Apr 2015, 18:58 ]
Post subject:  Re: What brand is your main LD Player?
Hi to all i'am newbie here :?:
My LD gear is Pioneer CLD-2950 and it plays both formats pal&ntsc.

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Author:  particle [ 01 Jun 2015, 17:32 ]
Post subject:  Re: What brand is your main LD Player?
My only player at the moment is a Pioneer CLD-D406 manufactured in 1996. It is a no-frills unit except for both side play, a feature I enjoy when I watch movies. Changing discs late into a long movie is fine, but it's convenient to not have to flip the disc 50-55 minutes in since I'm often having my evening meal at that point. Image quality is good and looks every bit as nice as DVD. It may not be high definition, but it's enjoyable nonetheless.
Author:  Guest [ 19 Jul 2015, 21:17 ]
Post subject:  Re: What brand is your main LD Player?
My LX-K700 developed an odd flicker across the top edge of the screen between scene changes. I can't help but think it is a repairable issue with proper calibration. I may have this player repaired. Is grasshopper still providing service?

For now I'm moving on to my LX-900. I have yet to compare side by side with my reference CD music of choice, Pet Shop Boys' Behaviour. So far the LX-K700's audio seems to be on par for movie viewing. Does anyone have better insight into the DAC of the LX-K700? I haven't opened it up but I would be willing to. Marantz AV500/MM500, DLK 1/2 fronts, DLK 2 rears, RCA lineaum center, no sub yet.

PQ is slightly better but would be better judged without the annoyance of the flicker. I would say we're in the realm of diminishing returns and I don't have the equipment or know-how to test in that realm. My opinion now is that the LX-K700 is a very very fine player, and an outstanding choice for a newcomer, provided you can find a remote or seek out a player that comes with one. Basic video features on the LX-700 are very poor without a remote.
Author:  confederate [ 20 Jul 2015, 08:38 ]
Post subject:  Re: What brand is your main LD Player?
I own two players, the infamous HLD-X0 as well as the CLD-925 which has served me faithfully for the past 13 years. The only problem I have with the CLD-925
is the known U1 error and I haven't been able to fix it yet myself however it does not really bother me.

What really suprised me about the HLD-X0 is that it cannot play Audio CDs lol.

I think the PAL playback capabilities of the CLD-925 are fairly decent and NTSC pretty good, too. Overall it is a very good player however the HLD-X0 provides a
vastly superior picture compared to the CLD-925.
Author:  lons_vex [ 20 Jul 2015, 08:52 ]
Post subject:  Re: What brand is your main LD Player?
There was an explanation somewhere why high end players cannot play audio-CD's.
However it has been a long time since I read that, and I hope I do not remember wrongly.

It basically said that the clamp mechanism is quite different for LD and CD and is a "compromise".
If you make a clamp mechanism straight for 8" and 12" LD only, it is spot on for that system and
delivers "better quality".

While I'm curious too what a CD would sound like in a X0 or X9, I'll also have to say that a dedicated
high-end CD Player, that can't play anything else but CD's, will always sound better than some multi
disc machine. So it's not really a loss. It is a problem though that you cannot play 3" VSD on such
machines, but that is what you can use the 925 for.
Author:  confederate [ 20 Jul 2015, 12:05 ]
Post subject:  Re: What brand is your main LD Player?
lons_vex wrote:
There was an explanation somewhere why high end players cannot play audio-CD's.
However it has been a long time since I read that, and I hope I do not remember wrongly.

It basically said that the clamp mechanism is quite different for LD and CD and is a "compromise".
If you make a clamp mechanism straight for 8" and 12" LD only, it is spot on for that system and
delivers "better quality".

While I'm curious too what a CD would sound like in a X0 or X9, I'll also have to say that a dedicated
high-end CD Player, that can't play anything else but CD's, will always sound better than some multi
disc machine. So it's not really a loss. It is a problem though that you cannot play 3" VSD on such
machines, but that is what you can use the 925 for.


I appreciate the comment and explanation.
Author:  tasuke [ 20 Jul 2015, 15:45 ]
Post subject:  Re: What brand is your main LD Player?
found some rare internal shots of PIONEER's first no-compromise ELITE series LD-only model, the 1986 LD-S1.
it doesn't appear, -in this model at least- that the disc clamp is all that much larger or more robust
than the one employed in similar-era CLD models such as my CLD-3030;


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Author:  gorkab [ 25 Nov 2015, 03:40 ]
Post subject:  Re: What brand is your main LD Player?
New one on the forum, not that old on the website, but here are my two players:
    - Pioneer CLD-D515 (purchased in June 2010)
    - Pioneer LD-V4300D (purchased in November 2015)

You can see a picture of my CLD-D515 below, with a copy of the "CGI in SFX" LD 8-)

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Author:  substance [ 04 Feb 2016, 19:48 ]
Post subject:  Re: What brand is your main LD Player?
Added these two beauties to the arsenal.

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