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 Post subject: Re: WTB: Pioneer LD-S2
PostPosted: 08 Dec 2018, 18:26 
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God, there was a time when i REALLY wanted an LD-S1. needless to say, i ended up settling on a CLD-3030, and i'm ever glad i did.

i mean, with the prices these ELITE/Reference super players now demand,
if and when the hypothetical S1 i would have had had decided to crap out on me, i'd be SOL.

i'm far more confident in my situation with the 3030; since the model has been traditionally overlooked,
i was able to build up a nest egg of spare parts for my prime chassis, and, since it has a highly modular internal design,
it is relatively easy to get in there and swap out entire sub-assemblies with a minimum of fuss.

don't get me wrong, the S1 also looks fairly easy to work with, -from what i've seen of it's internal layout-
but, being the premium model it is, parts are rather hard to come by, and, it seems largely only available from donor S1s,
whereas with the 3030, most sub-assemblies, -especially the critical ones, such as the spindle motor/laser traverse assy.-
are also available from multiple sources,
such the immediate step down model, CLD-1030, as well as from the Karaoke variant CLD-V190,
and probably from at least one of the industrial models that appear to be based on the 3030 chassis.

hell, if push comes to shove, there is even the Japanese market CLD-99S and whatever japan market variants it has, to fall back upon...
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 Post subject: Re: WTB: Pioneer LD-S2
PostPosted: 09 Dec 2018, 16:56 
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invictus005 wrote:
In average condition, these things sell for $300-$600 regularly, especially in Japanese auctions under the X1 model number.


In regards to this, I'm personally much more interested in acquiring an LD-S2 over an X1. I'm also curious as to how much rarer the S2 might (if at all). It seems like it would have been harder to sell in the North American market.

If there was one within driving distance, I'd probably commit to one. Other than that, I might as well save the cash and spring for the X0 and its red laser glory.
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 Post subject: Re: WTB: Pioneer LD-S2
PostPosted: 09 Dec 2018, 20:57 
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cplusplus wrote:
invictus005 wrote:
In average condition, these things sell for $300-$600 regularly, especially in Japanese auctions under the X1 model number.


In regards to this, I'm personally much more interested in acquiring an LD-S2 over an X1. I'm also curious as to how much rarer the S2 might (if at all). It seems like it would have been harder to sell in the North American market.

If there was one within driving distance, I'd probably commit to one. Other than that, I might as well save the cash and spring for the X0 and its red laser glory.


Unless you want muse playback an AC3 modded S2 is more or less the same as an X0.
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 Post subject: Re: WTB: Pioneer LD-S2
PostPosted: 09 Dec 2018, 21:27 
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There's more to the X0 than just the S2 chassis it's built on. The red laser, obviously, for one but the X0 NTSC processing was also updated. A description of this from substance I found:

Quote:
I have seen LD-S2(LD-X1) and I now own HLD-X0. If the cost is no issue, HLD-X0 is a better player. Some claim(including Kurtis) LD-S2 and HLD-X0(noise reduction off) has same picture quality on NTSC laserdiscs. I do not agree. Although they are close on noise levels(if not same), HLD-X0 has better colors which LD needs, no smearing and better tracking due to red laser. With noise reduction turned on, there is no competition. HLD-X0 can clean any laserdisc from noise without losing detail or bad artifacts.


Quote:
On good mastered late era discs(super ntsc) i.e. lost in space, titanic, starship troopers, LD-S2 is identical in noise levels and sharpness(all processing OFF) HLD-X0 has better colors. For example on LD-S2 or similar CLD-97 you can count the shade of skin tones in say 10s or 100s(depends on mastering), on HLD-X0 its at least 100s of shades to 1000s. I would say overall HLD-X0 renders colors somewhere between %20-30 better than any other LD player.
I don't know what kind of video processing you have in mind but I doubt that you can find one better than one in HLD-X0. Hands down it has the best video noise reduction. 3D comb filter is also among the best. You can find its equal but don't think you can find one better.
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 Post subject: Re: WTB: Pioneer LD-S2
PostPosted: 10 Dec 2018, 12:40 
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harlock wrote:
There's more to the X0 than just the S2 chassis it's built on. The red laser, obviously, for one but the X0 NTSC processing was also updated. A description of this from substance I found:

Quote:
I have seen LD-S2(LD-X1) and I now own HLD-X0. If the cost is no issue, HLD-X0 is a better player. Some claim(including Kurtis) LD-S2 and HLD-X0(noise reduction off) has same picture quality on NTSC laserdiscs. I do not agree. Although they are close on noise levels(if not same), HLD-X0 has better colors which LD needs, no smearing and better tracking due to red laser. With noise reduction turned on, there is no competition. HLD-X0 can clean any laserdisc from noise without losing detail or bad artifacts.


Quote:
On good mastered late era discs(super ntsc) i.e. lost in space, titanic, starship troopers, LD-S2 is identical in noise levels and sharpness(all processing OFF) HLD-X0 has better colors. For example on LD-S2 or similar CLD-97 you can count the shade of skin tones in say 10s or 100s(depends on mastering), on HLD-X0 its at least 100s of shades to 1000s. I would say overall HLD-X0 renders colors somewhere between %20-30 better than any other LD player.
I don't know what kind of video processing you have in mind but I doubt that you can find one better than one in HLD-X0. Hands down it has the best video noise reduction. 3D comb filter is also among the best. You can find its equal but don't think you can find one better.


With all due respect have you seen both in action? I have and my "more or less" comment is accurate.
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 Post subject: Re: WTB: Pioneer LD-S2
PostPosted: 10 Dec 2018, 21:17 
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I believe Substance has said the same thing and he’s one of few members to have some hands on time with the higher end machines and also the context necessary to pass onto us his findings. The returns diminish extremely efter CLD-97 in the opinion of most.

I’ve never seen either of the big suckers in action but with the amount of post processing people are using now I don’t know why much of this matters so much. If you have better processing than any of these players had (which is totally possible nowadays) then all you’re really interested in is the most noiseless chassis you can afford to plug into your $4000 magic box or even Kuro for that matter. There really is something to buying older more analog decks and just using the straight composite into modern stuff as opposed to clinging to what was state of the art 20-25 years ago.

The players that fully digitize the image looked amazing at the time on contemporary sets but after my two better decks died and I had to fall back on a lowly 503 I then made new settings on my set (XBR960) after that and to be honest it looks better with subtle sources now than it used to running a 99. Super vivid stuff, digitally remastered in the 90s, not so much, but those LDs that show older analog sources the best like Tokyo Olympiad or 2001...I’m enjoying these more now with the rattly old deck with no digital outs than I was with the self-cooking CLD-99.
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 Post subject: Re: WTB: Pioneer LD-S2
PostPosted: 10 Dec 2018, 22:33 
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LD-S2
HLD-X0
CLD-97

Are ultra low noise players. These three are comparable to each other but not to others(including X9) in terms of noise performance. S2 has less noise than 97 but softer. X0 has the same sharpness as 97 but less noise like S2. Between the three the difference is subtle but visible at one sight. X9 is significantly noisier however has none destructive digital noise reduction which helps a lot. X0 has the best color rendering probably due to much lower chroma noise. X0 also has the good digital noise reduction which improves on S2. I don’t believe red laser improves video at all. Yes it reads rotted discs which other players would not but rot is still visible.

X0 has been my main player for years. I have an S2 but not used at all. Instead I chose MLD7020 (CLD-97 clone) as my secondary player due to close enough performance and dual side playback. I had a X9 for a brief while. I removed it from my system after like maybe 4 movies.
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 Post subject: Re: WTB: Pioneer LD-S2
PostPosted: 11 Dec 2018, 01:31 
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signofzeta wrote:
I believe Substance has said the same thing and he’s one of few members to have some hands on time with the higher end machines and also the context necessary to pass onto us his findings. The returns diminish extremely efter CLD-97 in the opinion of most.

I’ve never seen either of the big suckers in action but with the amount of post processing people are using now I don’t know why much of this matters so much. If you have better processing than any of these players had (which is totally possible nowadays) then all you’re really interested in is the most noiseless chassis you can afford to plug into your $4000 magic box or even Kuro for that matter. There really is something to buying older more analog decks and just using the straight composite into modern stuff as opposed to clinging to what was state of the art 20-25 years ago.

The players that fully digitize the image looked amazing at the time on contemporary sets but after my two better decks died and I had to fall back on a lowly 503 I then made new settings on my set (XBR960) after that and to be honest it looks better with subtle sources now than it used to running a 99. Super vivid stuff, digitally remastered in the 90s, not so much, but those LDs that show older analog sources the best like Tokyo Olympiad or 2001...I’m enjoying these more now with the rattly old deck with no digital outs than I was with the self-cooking CLD-99.


I think you nailed it, 97 and above you really have to nitpick the differences, I love Substance and I think even he would agree that the things he sees and details in his posts sometimes are not going to be things that are noticeable and / or matter to most, he has a very keen eye for things that most won't ever pickup on so just grab a nice player and enjoy it. The X9 does stick out as noisy but personally I prefer that to any of the visible smearing Pioneers.
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 Post subject: Re: WTB: Pioneer LD-S2
PostPosted: 11 Dec 2018, 03:41 
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I have a beautiful CLD-959 (silver Japanese version of the CLD-97) for sale right now (...and already here in North America) - if the OP or anyone else is interested.
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 Post subject: Re: WTB: Pioneer LD-S2
PostPosted: 11 Dec 2018, 03:50 
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My opinion is that when you are doing these comparisons between high end players like the S2 and X0 you really need to have both adjusted for peak alignments. I have found once the S2 laser is properly adjusted it has the same low crosstalk noise as the X0 gives you. The S2 is just harder to get there. I believe a person would be happy with either of these players. The question is do you feel the X0 is worth the higher price. The X0 and S2 are the lowest noise players and I personally think the 97/95 is the lowest noise dual sided player. But I focus on a smooth non-digitized background turning off the DNR. The ONLY player the internal DNR does not bother me much is the X0.

People that don't mind the digitized effect should definitely be looking at the 704/79/99/X9 as they are also very good players.

All of them are a little different, just find what makes you happy and enjoy.
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 Post subject: Re: WTB: Pioneer LD-S2
PostPosted: 11 Dec 2018, 04:01 
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Can NR be turned off on CLD-959? Is it identical internally and in performance to CLD-97?
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 Post subject: Re: WTB: Pioneer LD-S2
PostPosted: 11 Dec 2018, 12:44 
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invictus005 wrote:
Can NR be turned off on CLD-959? Is it identical internally and in performance to CLD-97?


I know if you put a 97 front face on it you can turn the NR off so the functionality is there, not sure if you can do something internally to completely disable it or not.
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 Post subject: Re: WTB: Pioneer LD-S2
PostPosted: 11 Dec 2018, 20:39 
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I believe Kurtis has a mod for this (turning the NR off).
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 Post subject: Re: WTB: Pioneer LD-S2
PostPosted: 11 Dec 2018, 23:20 
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Yes, it can be modified the same as the 97.
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 Post subject: Re: WTB: Pioneer LD-S2
PostPosted: 12 Dec 2018, 00:34 
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I was also interrested in modifying my CLD-959, but I never found a complete tutorial anywhere...
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 Post subject: Re: WTB: Pioneer LD-S2
PostPosted: 12 Dec 2018, 05:45 
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signofzeta wrote:
I’m enjoying these more now with the rattly old deck with no digital outs than I was with the self-cooking CLD-99.


I can relate to this. I do, however, wish I had purchased the CLD-97 instead of the 99 from Bayview. At the time (mid 2000s), the 3D comb filter was much more important to me. Now, I just run composite out.
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 Post subject: Re: WTB: Pioneer LD-S2
PostPosted: 30 Dec 2018, 20:27 
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cplusplus wrote:
signofzeta wrote:
I’m enjoying these more now with the rattly old deck with no digital outs than I was with the self-cooking CLD-99.


I can relate to this. I do, however, wish I had purchased the CLD-97 instead of the 99 from Bayview. At the time (mid 2000s), the 3D comb filter was much more important to me. Now, I just run composite out.

Running composite into a modern 1080P/4K TV looks great with my players (S2/3070/1010), as the comb filter on a modern set makes LDs look great. The Snell & Wilcox test pattern from the Video Essentials LD shows no rainbows on the floating orb using a modern TV.
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 Post subject: Re: WTB: Pioneer LD-S2
PostPosted: 31 Dec 2018, 21:27 
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If it’s a Sony, yeah. If it’s a TCM (the new crap brand in the US, branded as Roku players right on the front) or some other junk I wouldn’t assume that at all.
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