I picked up a Pioneer CLD-D704 last week and was super excited to read about the increased signal to noise ratio on this player compared to my last player, the Yamaha CLV-W901. However, after I plugged everything in, I honestly could not tell the difference. Laserdiscarchive informs me that the CLV-W901 is almost identical to the CLD-D604, which is a slightly lower model than the CLD-D704. The increased signal to noise ratio is a jump from 50db to 51db. Is there really a significant difference between 50db and 51db for the signal to noise ratio? How perceptible is this difference to the human eye? Can someone post two side by side images to show me the difference? Also, perhaps I am not setting the new player correctly to optimize its performance. Any suggestions?

I ran both players through S-Video into my Onkyo TX-NR1008 receiver. This receiver upconverts the picture to 1080p before sending the signal to my full HD television via HDMI.

Well, you could increase PQ (from both players) by investing in an external comb filter. Do you have a test disc? It might be easier to see a difference while using one. Personally, I have had a cld-d604, a cld-d503 clone and a cld-d703 and I could tell the difference (between the 703 and the other two, not quite so much between the 5 and 6). Also, what model display do you have? Oh and turn off the noise reduction (both kinds) in your 704, that'll smudge detail.

I can tell a huge difference between a D704 and D604.

I agree. However, he has a lot of factors in the signal chaing that could be playing into the equation. Also, S-Video is probably not the best connection to be using unless you've determined that the S-Video output looks better in your particular setup.

As an aside, if I ever connect my LD player to my HDTV, the 3D comb filter in the set introduces significant motion blur and the S-Video out of the player looks better.

Good stuff guys, thanks! Can anyone recommend a good comb filter? A quick search turned up http://www.hdtvsupply.com/stovgaco.html. What do you think?

Also, I can bypass the receiver and put the S-Video directly into the television or run it through an external comb filter, but I still have to worry about the comb filter in my television distorting the image. Is this going to be an issue and if so is there a good way to bypass this?

The only time you'll have to worry about the comb filter in your TV is if the input is composite or RF. I used a faroudja VP-100 comb filter for many years and was very happy with it. If you're interested, I have an Extron YCS-100 that I'm looking to sell. It has a 5-line digital comb filter and actually produces a very nice picture; somewhat better than the vp-100. I'm looking to get rid of it because I recently acquired a broadcast grade TBC with a good comb filter built in.

YCS-100: http://www.extron.com/product/product.aspx?id=ycs100

I think you'll want to skip on that. It seems like a full on scaler, you'd be better off saving your money and just getting an old DVD recorder or the Extron unit of gumby's. If you use the S-video output on your player at all there will be no more comb filtering, because it's already been done (in the player). You'll want to switch to composite output. Also, how did changing the noise reduction setting work out?

Honestly this whole s-video vs composite issue on LD is very thorny because if the player comb filters the signal then recombines it for composite does it really matter what comb filter you then put it through? The damage of inferior filtering has been done.

Yes and no I suppose. I believe that theoretically you're supposed to be able to get a composite signal very close to the original when recombined. If you didn't, you wouldn't see much difference between various external comb filters.

In my opinion, I think the problem arises when the player does noise reduction based on the separated signal. In this case, it could be processing parts of the luma signal that are supposed to be chroma and vice versa then recombining into a potential mess of a signal. Admittedly though, my knowledge of composite video and digital noise reduction is extremely limited.

well I've got to wonder how hard could it really be to grab the composite signal before y/c seperation and then format it in way that a TV can work with. People modify video game systems that only output RF like the Atari 2600, Colecovision, and Intellivision to output composite video. We do it by grabbing the composite signal before it goes into the RF modulator and putting it through a voltage follower or emitter follower amp to format it to work with a TV. Maybe one of the designs used for those consoles might also work for an LD player.

Maybe something like this:

http://www.a1k0n.net/projects/coleco/sch.html

Yes, this is the way to do it but the level going into the IC is not 1Vp-p so you also have to apply the proper gain reduction. Get the signal before before going into the separation/TBC/DNR IC. People modify before the RF on games as the RF limits the resolution to 330 lines resolution and can add much noise.

The thing is you do get a non TBD corrected signal so you should put it thru a processor somewhere. I have a Philips CDV-488 that has a pure analog signal with analog TBC. You can get a S201, S104 entry models and they are pure analog. Why tear into an expensive player when you can just buy one of these. BTW the LD-S2 has a better looking lower noise picture than these units with it's normal output. More people have been interested in getting the digital signal coming out of the IC and putting that into a system totally avoiding the need to perform the D/A conversion.

Only problem is, don't those players, S201 and S104, have really noisy pictures even if they are purely analog?

So if I wanted to modify a better player to do this I would probably get the best results by putting that composite signal through an external TBC, then to my TV? Probably like those TBCs that the folks use for doing VHS to DVD transfers.

Do you have any idea what the proper gain reduction circuit might look like? Honestly I'm sort of in the dark of how they come up with the circuits. I just know that they do, then they post them for all to do.

I agree the S201 and S104 do not have the best picture but it will look about the same as the mod getting the signal before the TBC/DNR/Filter IC in a CLD-D703/704/79/99/504/604 etc. You have to start looking at the CLD-97 and LD-S2 to get the units with higher quality power supplies etc to give you a better picture. This is why I say just buy a LD-S2 or HLD-X0. The X0 would have an advanced Filter over the S2 and probably give you the separation you were looking for.

I have both the CDV488 and S201 and was pretty impressed with the composite picture on each.

Funny thing is that the S201 had been wasting away in its original box and I got it out upon hearing good forum comments about it and I wasn't disappointed.

The 488 has a nice digital still-frame as well, but not as sharp as the LX1000u digital still and step frame.

Buying an X0 without getting ass-raped is easier said than done...

You can't buy them easily from Yahoo! Japan using a bidding service, because they are too heavy to ship. I RARELY see them on eBay or Videogon. I never see them on craigslist. The only person who will sell one to you is n$a, but he wants an arm and a leg for one ($7K+).

TLK

At least one of the bidding services, as I found when I researched the question, has a special "auto parts" account for people who want to bid on especially heavy items.

Which one, specifically?

TLK

I believe "Shopping Mall Japan" does. If you look around, there may be others.

The difference between 50 and 51db is pretty hilariously small. Its perceptible though, if the display is good enough. However...




Yeah, that's way too much modern day garbage involved to ever be able to see the improvement. I'm not saying one player isn't better than the other, I'm just saying that with all that signal conversion going on what you are looking at is...not just an LD image. The SNR isn't relevant.

Its like saying, "I bought the Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab 180g LP version of Marvin Gaye's - What's Going On and I can't really see how it sounds better than the original pressing. BTW, I've recorded both using a Ion USB turntable, converted them to MP3, and I'm listening to them on Bose Quite Comfort noise canceling headphones."

You've messed with the signal SO MUCH that the subtleties of the source are buried under multiple generations of signal amplification and digital artifacting. You heard it from a guy who heard it from a guy who heard it from a guy.