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 Post subject: Re: AC3 RF demodulators are very expensive, any alternative?
PostPosted: 14 Feb 2021, 03:25 
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itsvince725 wrote:

Ah, okay. I mean, if I want to get good sound quality from my LD machines I probably should be using SPDIF/TOSLink anyway but it's nice to know I don't *have* to. My current main player is a CLD-D505 from 1996 which I'm sure is plenty modern enough.


You should use both.

Remember, LD discs can have two soundtracks (digital and analog). Toslink only works for the digital tracks so if you played a disc with only analog sound (very common), you won't hear anything.

Also, sound is subjective as well. Sometimes an LD player's left and right audio outputs (sending out the digital track) will sound better if it sports a better or just different sounding D/A converter vs. the one you have in the AV Receiver. I always felt that my CLD-3030 (1988 model) sounds especially amazing for music as I feel there is a more analog warmth to them. However, after Pioneer (and other manufacturers) switched from the multi bit DA converters to the 1 bit direct linear converters around 1991, they just weren't the same. So in most cases when I use my CLD-D701 or later players for digital audio playback, I choose to use the optical out of them and let my AV Receiver do the decoding.
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 Post subject: Re: AC3 RF demodulators are very expensive, any alternative?
PostPosted: 19 Feb 2021, 03:35 
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In short, most of us with full home theater setups have three different paths from the player to the receiver. Digital (TOSLINK or SPDIF) analog (RCA) and AC-3 (through a demodulator). %99 of the time the RCA jacks are my preference (CLD-99).

There are no AC-3 discs that require that you listen to the AC-3 sound since they also have PCM stereo. However there are DTS discs that effectively require DTS decoding because DTS takes the place of the PCM tracks. If the analogs have been used for commentary...you’ll need DTS or you’ll only be able to hear the commentary.
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 Post subject: Re: AC3 RF demodulators are very expensive, any alternative?
PostPosted: 19 Feb 2021, 05:59 
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signofzeta wrote:
However there are DTS discs that effectively require DTS decoding because DTS takes the place of the PCM tracks. If the analogs have been used for commentary...you’ll need DTS or you’ll only be able to hear the commentary.


Never though of that, and indeed there seems to be 4 releases that don't even have a mono analog soundtrack of the movie because all analog tracks are used for commentary and/or movie musical score:

Blade (1998) [ID5423LI]
Dark City (1998) [ID4643LI]
Lost in Space (1998) [ID4712LI]
Rush Hour (1998) [ID5477LI]

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 Post subject: Re: AC3 RF demodulators are very expensive, any alternative?
PostPosted: 19 Feb 2021, 18:02 
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admin wrote:
signofzeta wrote:
However there are DTS discs that effectively require DTS decoding because DTS takes the place of the PCM tracks. If the analogs have been used for commentary...you’ll need DTS or you’ll only be able to hear the commentary.


Never though of that, and indeed there seems to be 4 releases that don't even have a mono analog soundtrack of the movie because all analog tracks are used for commentary and/or movie musical score:


Yeah I remember this but couldn't remember if it was for AC3 or DTS discs, just that it was an issue with some later discs.
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 Post subject: Re: AC3 RF demodulators are very expensive, any alternative?
PostPosted: 19 Feb 2021, 21:41 
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signofzeta wrote:

....However there are DTS discs that effectively require DTS decoding because DTS takes the place of the PCM tracks. If the analogs have been used for commentary...you’ll need DTS or you’ll only be able to hear the commentary.



Especially in the mid 1990's, this was definitely a problem since DTS was more the boutique codec. Now that DTS and Dolby Digital are essentially the norm in all current AV Receivers, this problem of having to choose what codec I can play has been nullified (except if you want to play Dolby Digital track off of LD and don't have a Demodulator).
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 Post subject: Re: AC3 RF demodulators are very expensive, any alternative?
PostPosted: 19 Feb 2021, 23:52 
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I doubt it was ever a problem for very many people. Every DTS disc has a non-DTS equivalent (I think...?) with the DTS version being a higher priced, quite possibly special order item. I think it’s more likely to be a problem now since only now would someone have a random DTS disc as part of a collection or whatever without the means to play it. Back in the day those things only sold to people who had standalone DTS processors which cost hundreds of dollars in addition to a $1000+ 5.1 system that probably already supported AC-3. The analog Dolby Surround is hardly a satisfactory substitute for PCM so buying a DTS disk without DTS gear makes no a sense.

I do remember a letter or two in Widescreen Review or Videophile from angry fans with analog only players claiming they would abandon LD if this kind of thing ever became the norm. In in the end it never did become the norm and we all were forced to abandon LD anyway. :)
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 Post subject: Re: AC3 RF demodulators are very expensive, any alternative?
PostPosted: 20 Feb 2021, 05:43 
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Totally agree with you on that.

I was mostly inferring that most of us would have a pretty modern AV Receiver set-up w/ DD + DTS decoding and collecting any disc at this point would play in an instant without issue. However, I never really thought about a laserdisc collector w/ no sound system at all or one w/ only analog inputs and in that case they would hear garbage on their speakers when playing a DTS disc until they realized @ some point that they have to manually switch to the analog track to hear the movie.
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 Post subject: Re: AC3 RF demodulators are very expensive, any alternative?
PostPosted: 20 Feb 2021, 20:08 
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If they have an analog only deck a DTS disc is the same as any other disc as far as they are concerned (assuming it’s not one of the four titles listed above as having commentary). If they have a deck that does Digital Sound then they will get garbage from the analog outs until they manually switch to the analog tracks. It’s possible that later players have a mute function for this, like how newer CD players won’t play data through the DAC, but my newest player is from 1995 so I can’t check.

If one had an optical connection between the LD player and the AVR and the AVR didn’t support DTS, I’m not sure if it would play noise or mute itself.
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 Post subject: Re: AC3 RF demodulators are very expensive, any alternative?
PostPosted: 08 Jun 2022, 17:31 
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Hey guys, sorry to pop in like this, but...

The Denon AVP A1 had AC-3 demodulating built in. But does anyone know if the newer AVP A1HDCI has it as well?
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 Post subject: Re: AC3 RF demodulators are very expensive, any alternative?
PostPosted: 08 Jun 2022, 22:40 
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cornponious wrote:
Hey guys, sorry to pop in like this, but...

The Denon AVP A1 had AC-3 demodulating built in. But does anyone know if the newer AVP A1HDCI has it as well?


The Hardware Database is here for that...

Denon AVP-A1 => built-in
Denon AVP-A1HD => not built-in

and

https://www.lddb.com/hardware/part/ac3rf/

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 Post subject: Re: AC3 RF demodulators are very expensive, any alternative?
PostPosted: 09 Jun 2022, 04:38 
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admin wrote:

Denon AVP-A1 => built-in
Denon AVP-A1HD => not built-in



One would think that Denon should have come up with a more distinctive numbering system to differentiate these two models as they are generations apart from each other instead of being a minor improvement over the other. :crazy:
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 Post subject: Re: AC3 RF demodulators are very expensive, any alternative?
PostPosted: 31 Jul 2022, 20:31 
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(WARNING: Kinda serious, kinda not, and either way, this is definitely not for the feint of heart. I'm posting only because this is, technically speaking, an alternative.)

Buy a player you don't mind modding, mod the player to work with a Domesday Duplicator, capture the signal on your computer, decode the output to a file over the course of 6-24 hrs/side. Easy peasy. :)

Seriously, it is now possible to get the AC3 signal from DdD output and, with care, generate video captures that contain the original DD audio. It's definitely not easy, or recommended for people who just want to spin their discs on a Saturday night. I'm just saying it's an alternative, albeit a pretty outlandish one.
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 Post subject: Re: AC3 RF demodulators are very expensive, any alternative?
PostPosted: 01 Aug 2022, 15:41 
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ohnoyoko wrote:
(WARNING: Kinda serious, kinda not, and either way, this is definitely not for the feint of heart. I'm posting only because this is, technically speaking, an alternative.)

Buy a player you don't mind modding, mod the player to work with a Domesday Duplicator, capture the signal on your computer, decode the output to a file over the course of 6-24 hrs/side. Easy peasy. :)

Seriously, it is now possible to get the AC3 signal from DdD output and, with care, generate video captures that contain the original DD audio. It's definitely not easy, or recommended for people who just want to spin their discs on a Saturday night. I'm just saying it's an alternative, albeit a pretty outlandish one.


Have you or someone you know actually done this????
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 Post subject: Re: AC3 RF demodulators are very expensive, any alternative?
PostPosted: 01 Aug 2022, 19:25 
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rein-o wrote:
ohnoyoko wrote:
(WARNING: Kinda serious, kinda not, and either way, this is definitely not for the feint of heart. I'm posting only because this is, technically speaking, an alternative.)

Buy a player you don't mind modding, mod the player to work with a Domesday Duplicator, capture the signal on your computer, decode the output to a file over the course of 6-24 hrs/side. Easy peasy. :)

Seriously, it is now possible to get the AC3 signal from DdD output and, with care, generate video captures that contain the original DD audio. It's definitely not easy, or recommended for people who just want to spin their discs on a Saturday night. I'm just saying it's an alternative, albeit a pretty outlandish one.


Have you or someone you know actually done this????


Come on, don’t be lazy, it only takes a week to watch the movie.
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 Post subject: Re: AC3 RF demodulators are very expensive, any alternative?
PostPosted: 02 Aug 2022, 05:49 
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ohnoyoko wrote:
Seriously, it is now possible to get the AC3 signal from DdD output and, with care, generate video captures that contain the original DD audio.


If my understanding of the Doomsday Duplicator is correct, the file that gets extracted would need some kind of hardware/software system designed to mimic how a LaserDisc player works to play the file. Thus, if that is the case, you would still need an AC3-RF Demodulator to once again extract the AC3 signal since it's still encoded unlike any other current playback device we have (e.g.: DVD, Blu ray, broadcast, etc.).
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 Post subject: Re: AC3 RF demodulators are very expensive, any alternative?
PostPosted: 02 Aug 2022, 20:20 
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I’m not %100 sure the working DD signal has been extracted yet. Regardless, yes, you won’t be hearing it coming from an LD player. It’ll all be part of a computer file.
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 Post subject: Re: AC3 RF demodulators are very expensive, any alternative?
PostPosted: 05 Aug 2022, 02:43 
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rein-o wrote:
ohnoyoko wrote:
(WARNING: Kinda serious, kinda not, and either way, this is definitely not for the feint of heart. I'm posting only because this is, technically speaking, an alternative.)

Buy a player you don't mind modding, mod the player to work with a Domesday Duplicator, capture the signal on your computer, decode the output to a file over the course of 6-24 hrs/side. Easy peasy. :)

Seriously, it is now possible to get the AC3 signal from DdD output and, with care, generate video captures that contain the original DD audio. It's definitely not easy, or recommended for people who just want to spin their discs on a Saturday night. I'm just saying it's an alternative, albeit a pretty outlandish one.


Have you or someone you know actually done this????


*raises hand* Believe me, this is not something you do because it's a hot Saturday night with you, your collection, and your TV. It's really meant more for archival purposes and experimentation, which is why I did it. The AC-3 decoding in particular is a bit of a work-in-progress. I really need to get off my butt and rewrite the Scala decoder so that it's more efficient. One day.... (In the meantime, there's my trusty RFD-1 if I need to decode the AC-3 audio quickly.)
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 Post subject: Re: AC3 RF demodulators are very expensive, any alternative?
PostPosted: 05 Aug 2022, 02:48 
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ldfan wrote:
ohnoyoko wrote:
Seriously, it is now possible to get the AC3 signal from DdD output and, with care, generate video captures that contain the original DD audio.


If my understanding of the Doomsday Duplicator is correct, the file that gets extracted would need some kind of hardware/software system designed to mimic how a LaserDisc player works to play the file. Thus, if that is the case, you would still need an AC3-RF Demodulator to once again extract the AC3 signal since it's still encoded unlike any other current playback device we have (e.g.: DVD, Blu ray, broadcast, etc.).


Basically, the DdD converts the analog signal from the disc into a raw digital signal. You then have to decode the output (RGB visual data, analog audio, and digital EFM track if it exists), and run further run the output through whatever filters (probably in ffmpeg but it can technically be other programs) are required to produce a final A/V signal your eyes & ears can process. The digital track can also be processed and the data or audio "ripped" somewhat like a CD. I've used it to extract some audio and confirm that the audio is a perfect copy of whatever's on the digital track (or, if the software and/or the disc are janky, where the glitches occur, assuming they can be noticed, which isn't always the case). You could use it to grab the data from LaserActive games but that's another story. I believe all this also works for MUSE discs, although I'm not aware of the current status of MUSE decoding. (If anybody wants to buy me and the DdD devs a MUSE player to mod and play with....)
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 Post subject: Re: AC3 RF demodulators are very expensive, any alternative?
PostPosted: 05 Aug 2022, 03:48 
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ohnoyoko wrote:

The digital track can also be processed and the data or audio "ripped" somewhat like a CD. I've used it to extract some audio and confirm that the audio is a perfect copy of whatever's on the digital track (or, if the software and/or the disc are janky, where the glitches occur, assuming they can be noticed, which isn't always the case).


I don't doubt that it can extract PCM+DTS, analog audio, and analog video w/ the right decoding scheme as it's all kinda of standardized when you think about it. The problem w/ AC3 is that it's like a signal hidden inside an analog waveform that happens to also be very proprietary which is why no one to this day can make an off the shelf AC3-RF Demodulator.

Anyway, I'll believe it when I see it ;).
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 Post subject: Re: AC3 RF demodulators are very expensive, any alternative?
PostPosted: 05 Aug 2022, 04:53 
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ldfan wrote:
ohnoyoko wrote:

The digital track can also be processed and the data or audio "ripped" somewhat like a CD. I've used it to extract some audio and confirm that the audio is a perfect copy of whatever's on the digital track (or, if the software and/or the disc are janky, where the glitches occur, assuming they can be noticed, which isn't always the case).


I don't doubt that it can extract PCM+DTS, analog audio, and analog video w/ the right decoding scheme as it's all kinda of standardized when you think about it. The problem w/ AC3 is that it's like a signal hidden inside an analog waveform that happens to also be very proprietary which is why no one to this day can make an off the shelf AC3-RF Demodulator.

Anyway, I'll believe it when I see it ;).


Somebody figured it out a year ago. :) It does work. It's not the tightest piece of code ever written but it does work.
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