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 Post subject: AC3 Delay/Sync Query
PostPosted: 25 Sep 2021, 10:49 
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Hello Forum

Just watching some AC3 Titles on my Pioneer CLD-D780/604 player for the first time - using a Yamaha DDP-1 AC3 Decoder...which feeds separate audio channels into my old Pioneer AX5 AVR...

Sounds fantastic....however sound is in front of frames.

How do people add delay to restore Lip Sync when playing their AC3 titles ?

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 Post subject: Re: AC3 Delay/Sync Query
PostPosted: 25 Sep 2021, 12:44 
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d770 wrote:
How do people add delay to restore Lip Sync when playing their AC3 titles ?


Is it on all channels or mostly on the dialogs from the center speaker?

If center, based on the DPP-1 User Manual, you can add 1 to 5ms delay on the center speaker.

Alternatively, you A/V Amp should have delay settings, speaker by speaker.

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 Post subject: Re: AC3 Delay/Sync Query
PostPosted: 25 Sep 2021, 13:28 
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Thanks Julien
You are right - I tried adding the 5ms delay on the DDP-1 to the center speaker but its not enough to give sync.


The AV Amp has delay ability for Digital input but not when using separate channel inputs unfortunately.!

I guess I might need to get another AV Amp for AC3 that can add delay.
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 Post subject: Re: AC3 Delay/Sync Query
PostPosted: 25 Sep 2021, 14:16 
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I have the same issue, or rather I will when my XBR-960 dies. Anything modern HD adds lag massively larger than any 90s setup could ever generate. AVR’s don’t add delay to analog channels usually, so it’s just one more reason why CRTs or “period correct” home theaters have their advantages.
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 Post subject: Re: AC3 Delay/Sync Query
PostPosted: 25 Sep 2021, 16:34 
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I've got the Receiver that was originally paired/sold with the Yamaha DDP-1 Decoder to try...the Yamaha RX-V2090....will dig out an owners manual to configure and see how the two units perform together - They should work well ... its worth the effort as I do like the AC3 soundtracks!

signofzeta wrote:
I have the same issue, or rather I will when my XBR-960 dies. Anything modern HD adds lag massively larger than any 90s setup could ever generate. AVR’s don’t add delay to analog channels usually, so it’s just one more reason why CRTs or “period correct” home theaters have their advantages.
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 Post subject: Re: AC3 Delay/Sync Query
PostPosted: 25 Sep 2021, 17:17 
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You won’t have many tools to remedy this. Nearly all AVP/AVRs pass through the analog 5.1/7.1 ext input without any processing other than volume level adjustments. You can’t add delay, you can’t apply room correction eq, you can’t apply any DSP like Dolby Surround. In short, the AVR/AVP acts as a 6 channel analog pre-amp which does volume control only. If it is super annoying, try finding a standalone RF demodulator with digital audio out. Most modern AVR/AVPs can add delay to digital audio sources without issue.
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 Post subject: Re: AC3 Delay/Sync Query
PostPosted: 25 Sep 2021, 18:08 
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d770 wrote:
I've got the Receiver that was originally paired/sold with the Yamaha DDP-1 Decoder to try...the Yamaha RX-V2090....will dig out an owners manual to configure and see how the two units perform together - They should work well ... its worth the effort as I do like the AC3 soundtracks!

signofzeta wrote:
I have the same issue, or rather I will when my XBR-960 dies. Anything modern HD adds lag massively larger than any 90s setup could ever generate. AVR’s don’t add delay to analog channels usually, so it’s just one more reason why CRTs or “period correct” home theaters have their advantages.


It’s not going to fix your issue because the issue is your TV or any modern TV. No period receiver will have the ability to delay the signal 250ms or whatever you probably need because back then TV’s all had nearly identical lag, about 1/30 of a second. Even early (2004) HDTVs like mine, which do fully digitize the signal before then sending it to the CRT, produce very little lag. I’m not sure what the deal is with the new stuff. Everything lags on them. New gear has stupid latency at every step, drives me nuts.
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 Post subject: Re: AC3 Delay/Sync Query
PostPosted: 25 Sep 2021, 20:58 
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signofzeta wrote:
d770 wrote:
I've got the Receiver that was originally paired/sold with the Yamaha DDP-1 Decoder to try...the Yamaha RX-V2090....will dig out an owners manual to configure and see how the two units perform together - They should work well ... its worth the effort as I do like the AC3 soundtracks!

signofzeta wrote:
I have the same issue, or rather I will when my XBR-960 dies. Anything modern HD adds lag massively larger than any 90s setup could ever generate. AVR’s don’t add delay to analog channels usually, so it’s just one more reason why CRTs or “period correct” home theaters have their advantages.


It’s not going to fix your issue because the issue is your TV or any modern TV. No period receiver will have the ability to delay the signal 250ms or whatever you probably need because back then TV’s all had nearly identical lag, about 1/30 of a second. Even early (2004) HDTVs like mine, which do fully digitize the signal before then sending it to the CRT, produce very little lag. I’m not sure what the deal is with the new stuff. Everything lags on them. New gear has stupid latency at every step, drives me nuts.




About 16-35ms for 60Hz content and 30 to 50ms for 24Hz content on most modern equipment when not in game or low latency mode.

This is less of a concern when you use the TV speakers as the it applies the appropriate delay to audio. It is also less of an issue when the audio connection is via HDMI which communicates these delay values between the source and the display. Any other connection type and method require wizardry in the settings and often times swapping the existing hardware to more capable ones.
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 Post subject: Re: AC3 Delay/Sync Query
PostPosted: 25 Sep 2021, 21:03 
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I haven't had any odd issues w/ audio syncing on the two set-ups that I currently use and possibly it's because I am not running TVs' w/ the latest processing technology but it might also be the way I set-up the signal flow (at least on my high end set-up).

For my better set-up, I have my Sony SDP-EP9ES feeding audio from its optical out (six channel output not used) to my Denon AVR-2808CI. It appears my Denon auto compensates for lag possibly due to the HDMI connection I have between it and the TV (even though I use an all composite video connection for LD playback). I do run all my video through the AV Receiver and my TV is only 1080p capable.

For my cheap set-up, I am using the six channel out from my Sony SDP-E800 w/ video also going through it (although I doubt any video is processed in this unit; just simple pass through). My TV on this set-up is only 720p capable so that is probably why there is no significant video delay.


Last edited by ldfan on 26 Sep 2021, 00:50, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: AC3 Delay/Sync Query
PostPosted: 25 Sep 2021, 22:07 
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When I was using a similar Rotel RDA-980 demod/decoder over 5.1 analog outputs, I didn't have any notable delay. I had both 5.1 Analog Audio and Composite video going to my Marantz SR6011, 480p 4:3 HDMI going out to my Epson 4000 projector, and scaling/zoom handled by the Epson.
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 Post subject: Re: AC3 Delay/Sync Query
PostPosted: 26 Sep 2021, 07:55 
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substance wrote:

About 16-35ms for 60Hz content and 30 to 50ms for 24Hz content on most modern equipment when not in game or low latency mode.

This is less of a concern when you use the TV speakers as the it applies the appropriate delay to audio. It is also less of an issue when the audio connection is via HDMI which communicates these delay values between the source and the display. Any other connection type and method require wizardry in the settings and often times swapping the existing hardware to more capable ones.


Thanks to all for the explanations..yes I think you have nailed it...Currently for best picture - Im using composite from the D780 onto a Panasonic DMR-ES15 DVD Recorder then its Component to the QLED UHD Samsung TV.....

After checking the Manual on the Yamaha RX-V2090 AV Amp..indeed there is no provision for delay..only for Digital Inputs same as my Pioneer AX5i...

So what to do!
If only the DDP-1 had Digital Out! then any receiver could add delay as needed.
Have to have a look see if possible maybe to add Digital output to the DDP-1 ... for now running composite directly to the TV bypassing the Panasonic DVD Recorder the sync is not perfect but watchable.


Last edited by d770 on 26 Sep 2021, 08:00, edited 3 times in total. _________________
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 Post subject: Re: AC3 Delay/Sync Query
PostPosted: 26 Sep 2021, 20:43 
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d770 wrote:

Thanks to all for the explanations..yes I think you have nailed it...Currently for best picture - Im using composite from the D780 onto a Panasonic DMR-ES15 DVD Recorder then its Component to the QLED UHD Samsung TV.....


That's most likely your issue. You really can't use that DVD-R unit as I have noticed that they really add a lot of delay. If you could run both audio and video through it, it wouldn't be an issue but you obviously can't if you want to push AC3 or DTS. Does it really make that much of a difference in picture quality to LD playback? I have been using a straight composite on my set-up and I think it still looks better than any of the conversion options I have built into my Denon AV Receiver (but maybe it's my TV that has a decent comb filter)


d770 wrote:
If only the DDP-1 had Digital Out! then any receiver could add delay as needed.


I don't think that is totally true. With your current set-up, I doubt any AV Receiver could compensate for that much delay. I would see about getting another AC3 processor that has a digital output (or mod the DDP-1 to add one) and then get a video processor w/ the type of comb filter you want along w/ a digital input to run the AC3 processor to it. I have a DVDO iScan VP30 I plan to incorporate in this fashion once I figure out if it truly is my best option to further improve my set-up.


d770 wrote:
... for now running composite directly to the TV bypassing the Panasonic DVD Recorder the sync is not perfect but watchable.


How off is it? You should be able to apply enough delay on the DDP1 to compensate for it.
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 Post subject: Re: AC3 Delay/Sync Query
PostPosted: 27 Sep 2021, 04:37 
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ldfan wrote:
I don't think that is totally true. With your current set-up, I doubt any AV Receiver could compensate for that much delay. I would see about getting another AC3 processor that has a digital output (or mod the DDP-1 to add one) and then get a video processor w/ the type of comb filter you want along w/ a digital input to run the AC3 processor to it. I have a DVDO iScan VP30 I plan to incorporate in this fashion once I figure out if it truly is my best option to further improve my set-up.


With AC3 Processors being so hard to get..I think its worth trying to mod a DDP-1 adding a Digital Output first...it uses the common Pioneer IC that has a DA Out Pin...however I don't have the circuit for this unit - that would be nice - (maybe similar to ADP-1)...so also currently not 100% sure if we can tap directly off the DA Output pin to an Optical Socket without other components/circuit being required.?!

The DVDO iScan VP30 sounds like a good plan...you dont see these for for sale in Australia unfortunately.


ldfan wrote:
How off is it? You should be able to apply enough delay on the DDP1 to compensate for it.

Its noticeable - the DDP-1 can only add up to 5ms max audio delay.

What TV do you have ? - definitely this Samsung QLED TV we currently have is not the best for LD directly
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 Post subject: Re: AC3 Delay/Sync Query
PostPosted: 27 Sep 2021, 17:54 
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I have a 2010 Sony EX700 1080p model and a 2008 Samsung 720P model. Obviously both do not have video processors that would severely slow down the video.

Have you tried the "gaming mode" on your TV? That's supposed to decrease lag time but might offer up a slightly inferior picture (but it's not like LD picture will ever match HD or 4K on any level).

As for the digital out, I know there is definitely a pin off of the PM-4007 IC (assuming this unit uses this chip) but I think it would only provide access only to the AC3-RF input (bypasses the two standard digital inputs).
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 Post subject: Re: AC3 Delay/Sync Query
PostPosted: 28 Sep 2021, 11:14 
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Thanks Ldfan

The Yamaha DDP1 AC3 Processor uses IC PD4606A which I believe DA Out is pin 65...question can it be taken from that IC from that Pin directly to an Optical Socket.!? .idk ..it would be good to get this going on a DDP-1...they are a lot cheaper than any other AC3 Output device Ive seen.

Ive been playing heaps today with the TV....I can get into Game Mode if using Composite input...however not if connecting via the DVD Recorder and using Component.

Best Picture is currently still via the component from the Panasonic DVD Recorder to the TV.

... I have sneaked a workaround of sorts for now whilst I figure out other options - which gives sync for voice from the center speaker.

I simply rerouted the centre channel from the DDP-1 AC3 processor to the Panasonic DVD-Recorder Left Analog Audio Input and then from the Left Analog Output from the DVD Recorder to the AV Receiver Center Input. Voice in Sync....!
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 Post subject: Re: AC3 Delay/Sync Query
PostPosted: 29 Sep 2021, 20:30 
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d770 wrote:

... I have sneaked a workaround of sorts for now whilst I figure out other options - which gives sync for voice from the center speaker.

I simply rerouted the centre channel from the DDP-1 AC3 processor to the Panasonic DVD-Recorder Left Analog Audio Input and then from the Left Analog Output from the DVD Recorder to the AV Receiver Center Input. Voice in Sync....!


That will definitely work :thumbup:.

You will still have delay on the other channels but it may not seem as obvious unless a person is talking to the far left or right side of a scene. You may even get a slight echo effect across the three front channels if a mix involves a combination of all those speakers.
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 Post subject: Re: AC3 Delay/Sync Query
PostPosted: 01 Oct 2021, 02:59 
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ldfan wrote:
That will definitely work :thumbup:.

You will still have delay on the other channels but it may not seem as obvious unless a person is talking to the far left or right side of a scene. You may even get a slight echo effect across the three front channels if a mix involves a combination of all those speakers.


100% right ldfan....most of the time speech is centred so yes much more acceptable than being out of lip-sync
Watching 'Breakdown' last night... one scene where music is playing in the background in a diner..you get that echo effect...surprisingly it just seemed to add a more spatial result...all other channels seem much less noticeable as any issue.

Been looking at this a bit more for an overall better solution..a couple of possibilities - adding an external delay circuit utilising a PT2399 chip. Or also still looking at gaining Digital out from a DDP-1 and playing with delay from that.

For Ref: Audio Delay Circuit
https://www.petervis.com/guitar-circuit ... rcuit.html
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