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Which title(s) should be processed first? (choose up to 3)
 Alaska: Last Frontier (1994) [00MW-0008]  4%  4%  [ 3 ]
 Atlantis (1991) [PILH-1003]  0%  0%  [ 0 ]
 Back to the Future (1985) [PA-HD80196]  8%  8%  [ 6 ]
 Back to the Future Part II (1989) [PA-HD80914]  1%  1%  [ 1 ]
 Back to the Future Part III (1990) [PA-HD80976]  0%  0%  [ 0 ]
 Basic Instinct (1992) (Uncut) [PILH-1002]  0%  0%  [ 0 ]
 Bram Stoker's Dracula (1992) [HVMC-14590]  4%  4%  [ 3 ]
 Bugsy (1991) [HVMC-13645]  0%  0%  [ 0 ]
 Chaplin (1992) [PILH-1005]  1%  1%  [ 1 ]
 Cliffhanger (1993) [PILH-1007]  3%  3%  [ 2 ]
 Close Encounters of the Third Kind: Special Edition (1980) [HVMC-10003]  1%  1%  [ 1 ]
 Dances with Wolves (1990) (Uncut) [PILH-7001]  4%  4%  [ 3 ]
 E.T. (1982) [PA-HD77012]  3%  3%  [ 2 ]
 Ferrari of the Art [COLE-50004]  1%  1%  [ 1 ]
 Guyana - The Lost World [00MW-0016]  3%  3%  [ 2 ]
 In the Line of Fire (1993) [HVMC-19668]  0%  0%  [ 0 ]
 Jurassic Park (1993) [PA-HD82061]  12%  12%  [ 9 ]
 Katie & Marielle Labeque: The Loves of Emma Bardac [SRLM 1067]  1%  1%  [ 1 ]
 Lawrence of Arabia (1962) [HVMC-12058]  3%  3%  [ 2 ]
 League of Their Own, A (1992) [HVMC-14589]  0%  0%  [ 0 ]
 Legends of the Fall (1994) [HVMC-21588]  4%  4%  [ 3 ]
 Maeda - Hills of the Seasons (1990) [00MW-0005]  1%  1%  [ 1 ]
 Musee du Louvre 2 [ICHL-0002]  1%  1%  [ 1 ]
 Pictures at an Exhibition, Solti CSO [SRLM 1068]  4%  4%  [ 3 ]
 Pioneer: Hi-Vision LD Demonstration Disc (1993) [HE-100]  10%  10%  [ 8 ]
 Silence of the Lambs, The (1991) [HVMC-12819]  3%  3%  [ 2 ]
 Sleepless in Seattle (1993) [HVMC-19799]  0%  0%  [ 0 ]
 Song of Africa (1997) [00MW-0014]  0%  0%  [ 0 ]
 Sony: The Test Disc (1995) [00MW-0009]  8%  8%  [ 6 ]
 Stargate (1994) [PILH-1008]  8%  8%  [ 6 ]
 Terminator 2: Judgment Day (1991) [PILH-1001]  10%  10%  [ 8 ]
 Top Gun (1986) [PA-HD71692]  1%  1%  [ 1 ]
 Universal Soldier (1992) [PILH-1004]  0%  0%  [ 0 ]
 Wolf (1994) [HVMC-18647]  1%  1%  [ 1 ]
Total votes : 77

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 Post subject: Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project
PostPosted: 27 Aug 2013, 03:04 
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Thanks publius and especially to you, substance. :thumbup: This will be a real treat for me I can tell you that much..

Also: You are right about the MUSE Hi-Vision version of Jumanji being rare and expensive, I didn't realize just how hard to come by it was either since like you said it was a late release. It doesn't surprise me that the PQ would be great on that disc not only because its a late release but also because the film is shot in such a dazzling, bright and bold way which lends well with HD in general.

I know there is a Blu-Ray version available now, I do wonder how the MUSE Hi-Vision versions stacks up in comparsen, who knows maybe one day you'll get lucky and land a copy.

What other MUSE Hi-Vision discs do you think you'll be picking up at some point? Because I noticed you said in a PM that you might buy another 4 or 5 more tittles..
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 Post subject: Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project
PostPosted: 27 Aug 2013, 04:32 
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I am hoping terminator 2, stargate, back to the future, encounters, breakfast at tiffanys, ferrari art, keith jarred, herbie hancock are the ones I really want.
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 Post subject: Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project
PostPosted: 27 Aug 2013, 04:33 
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Oh also jurassic park of course
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 Post subject: Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project
PostPosted: 27 Aug 2013, 05:42 
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The THX version of T2, Jurassic Park and Back to the Future should all be interesting to see in MUSE Hi-Vision as well.

I own all 3 films on Blu-Ray..
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 Post subject: Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project
PostPosted: 30 Aug 2013, 02:15 
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I have the HD PVR, and for the price, I recommend it for this project. It should capture the output frame accordingly as I gather HI VISION has component outputs? The result will be in 60 frames per second, but I do not know of a way to convert the 60fps down to 24 correctly. You'd have to remove every 3rd frame then every 2nd frame or something, the result would likely be no better than leaving it at 60 fps. Or if you did a straight 24p convert it would look like slow motion. I've recorded movies off HBO in 1080i 60 and they look alright, in most cases better than the DVD, not as good as HD DVD or Blu ray though. This is going to be a hang up, unless you can get the conversion process sorted. Or just live with 1080i 60, which I think will look good enough. Most of these are on HD DVD or Blu ray now anyway.
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 Post subject: Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project
PostPosted: 30 Aug 2013, 02:38 
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substance wrote:
HD PVR2 from Hauppauge
Data rates from 1mbps to 13.5mbps (This isn't really high but might just enough for MUSE)
1080i60 compatible

There is no mention of 1080p24hz. Website states up to 1080p60hz(recorded as 1080p30hz).


More than sufficient. I capture component material at around 8 mb/s, I actually post process all my files down to 4.5 mb/s H264 after capture and identifying the audio tracks in mkvtoolnix.

It really depends on how much data is being output too. I've noticed when capturing LD's at 720x480, it really doesn't make much difference if I have it set to 2 mb/s or 8. It still is only reading a max output of data from the player. The same is with component, which most of mine comes from Directv. I think they send it around 6-8 mbs max. Some of the pre pay movies might be higher, but cranking up the settings past 8 or 9 mb/s and I don't notice a larger file.

I suspect that HI VISION would be somewhere around 6-8 mb/s as well max, possibly even less. This is just because when capturing you can't really write any additional data that isn't there to begin with. Unless you used a capture device that doesn't compress on the fly, which you'd just end up with files in the hundreds of GB's, which would take a year to process.

The HD PVR 1 records at 1080i 60, this is the one that has the component hook ups right on the back. The HD PVR 2 does 1080p 60 but if I remember right, this is only with HDMI, neither do 24p, these are meant for video sources, like PS3, Xbox 360, or cable or sat. I wish they also accepted DTS, but they've yet to add that feature and probably won't. But DD 5.1 is used more on these devices anyway, especially Sat. which I use mine for or Laser Disc captures with AC3.
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 Post subject: Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project
PostPosted: 30 Aug 2013, 03:59 
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Conversion to 24 frame is mandatory if 1080p video is desired on blu-ray. If I record 1080p at 60 frame, none of the bluray players will read it as it is not a part of the bluray specs. I own crystalio 2 video processir with vxp chip by gennum. Exact chip is used on lumagen radiance video processors as well and considered best for high def deinterlacing. Crystalio 2 is a near broadcast level device at $5500 msrp. It can perform reverse telecine convert to 24frame correctly. It has 2 hdmi outs I can feed one of these to capture device. I also have its inputs calibrated for isf specs so I know the output has correct colors and contrast. I will need the test disc loaned from pubilus to calibrate input for sony decoder. Crystalio has full color management system that most video processors and tvs dont. Now I need a capture card that can do 1080p24.
audio is 2 ch pcm on hhivisin discs anyway so no issue there.
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 Post subject: Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project
PostPosted: 30 Aug 2013, 04:37 
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The 24p is basically hidden in the 60i stream. On the HD PVR it has Blu ray support for burning direct to BD with 1080i 60 captures and 1080p 60 captures on the HD PVR 2, I haven't done it myself because I loath burning anything to disc anymore, but the support is there for it.

I'll have to check my copy of Final Cut Pro, I know some of the recent versions including FCP X offer 60p to 24p conversion. Mine's from around 2005 or so, so I doubt I have it. I have the original HD version, so they may have had it then.
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 Post subject: Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project
PostPosted: 07 Sep 2013, 08:07 
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substance wrote:
It can perform reverse telecine convert to 24frame correctly.


No need to use a video processor for this. You can do the process manually in software to ensure it is 100% correct throughout the movie. Reverse pulldown for a regular movie isn't a complex process like actual deinterlacing anyway.

What do you think of the Timeleak solution I suggested?
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 Post subject: Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project
PostPosted: 07 Sep 2013, 17:25 
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Nicolas Santini emailed a few days ago. He said he completed his moving and testing equipment(near complete) He will ship my Sony MSC-4000 in the next few days. I will probably receive it in 2 weeks. I already have everything pre wired. I just need the test disc to calibrate the input.
Looks like timeleak is the best solution for me. Is timeleak the best for expresscard capture cards? I see other brands online. Now that I have the decoder on its way soon. I need to make a decision on capturing setup.
If you think building an htpc in $400-$500 range would yield better results, I will consider it. I watch a lot european soccer and fox soccer 2 go, espn3 and such are not PS3. I hook up my laptop to my tv but I can use a permanent pc there. I wont ever game or use as pvr. So I dont need top specs. What do you think?
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 Post subject: Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project
PostPosted: 08 Sep 2013, 00:48 
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Substance sounds like a great setup, have you calibrated the NTSC video chain? I used the VE disc still frames for the grayscale and CMS adjustments. The TV is calibrated, so minor adjustments for the LD inputs are made in the receiver. I like Calman it's very intuitive. Santini is supposed to send me the MUSE Sony test disc for MUSE calibration, soon I hope. My video chain is simple: LD (any video connection) > Onkyo1009 (HDMI) > Mitsubishi 82". I use a Hauppage Colossus to capture video, but it will only do stereo or 5.1 AC3, so I'm going to have to tinker with the audio output or get a separate audio capture card, once I get serious about archiving. It seems like every capture card or PVR has limitations on the audio inputs.

Substance, once you get the MUSE setup done watch the heat from the Sony MSC (4000&3000), I've had at least one unit flake out (I figured it out from my video card overclocking days). The 3000 has a nice heat sink on the main chip, but it still hits 130F on the surface. I heat sinked most of the 4000 culprits so it runs much better now, minor artifacts after extended use only.

Honestly for the curious, MUSE is somewhere in between DVD and BD, and I'm being generous. The sound is at best 4.0 (A mode), so it really is a niche interest.
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 Post subject: Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project
PostPosted: 08 Sep 2013, 03:00 
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Thanks for letting me know about the heat. Its gonna sit on algolith mosquito which does not generate any heat. It will have enough room to breath from top and sides and back is open. I will probably watch muse occasionally so most times it will be off anyway.
I am using the calman software as well with i1 pro spectro. I have my display calibrated which is a pioneer elite kuro 60" monitor. I calibrated all inputs including ntsc calibrated with essentials and standard. Crystalio 2 is amazing vp. I created multiple profiles. Each profile can hold different settings like picture,cms, deinterlacing modes,aspect ratio etc. So I have a profile for japanese lds with 0ire black and another profile for usa 7.5ire. Also different profiles for tv shows/video with 4:3 aspect ratio faroudja dcdi and film with 24frame gennum vxp deinterlacing etc.. you can have as many as 10 profile per input.
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 Post subject: Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project
PostPosted: 13 Sep 2013, 01:42 
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Looks like my sony msc-4000 decoder is finally on its way. Per Santini it should reach me by wednesday!! Now just need to figure out capturing part.
According to Santini there are 2 revisions/batches of msc-4000 made. Second batch might have revised electronics(undocumented).
In the mean time I added "dances with wolves" hi vision disc to my collection. I will probably get another 4-8 titles in the next few weeks.
I am leaning more towards 1080i60hz captures. Altering resolution and frame rate will alter end result(good or bad).
Any of you guys willing to help me create custom cover arts for these bd discs?
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 Post subject: Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project
PostPosted: 19 Sep 2013, 22:21 
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I received the delivery of my Sony MSC-4000 yesterday. I already had all the cables hanging in the back of the cabinet. It didn't take much to integrate to my setup. I watched parts of Bugsy which per reviews has poor video quality. Then I watched Cliffhanger which per reviews has great video quality.

MUSE encoded Hi-Vision video is very similar to 16mm film on high bitrate Blu-ray. There is this constant grain and texture but you have as much detail as high definition broadcast video something you would find on HD HBO for instance. Colors are also on par with a good mastered DVD and HD broadcast video. But you have this constant veil of very fine grain/film noise which is very similar to 16mm films. Grain/noise is more visible on dark scenes which is expected and nearly disappears on very bright scenes. Bugsy is not a bad transfer like people complain but its a dark movie therefore more noise. I think back in the day people believed the video noise was the compression artifact of Muse video. Adding more than adequate processing immediately makes hi-vision video distracting and very far from natural because it alters this video noise(makes it blurry). Just proper de-interlacing to turn it into 1080p60hz video on my plasma with pure direct mode(near %0 processing) revealed very film like video. I actually like it a lot. Even poor(per reviews) Bugsy is in my opinion very loyal presentation of older film on a modern display.

Most of these Hi-Vision reviews were done on older equipment and now technology moved on a lot. On my setup I don't see much issues with fast moving scenes or compression artifacts. Even 5 years ago most equipment even high end video processors used "bob weave" method to de-interlace 1080i video which resulted up to %50 resolution loss on moving scenes this could be the reason people complained about resolution loss on motion. My setup is motion adaptive per pixel de-interlacing(Crystalio II video processor) My display is Pioneer Elite Kuro plasma with 1080p static and above 900p motion resolution. I understand Hi-vision video loses nearly half of its resolution due to MUSE encoding but at least it ends there. I don't find this loss too dramatic.

Nowadays a lot of people expect noise free, crystal clear, razor sharp video when HD is mentioned. I remember in early days of blu-rays people complained about Criterion Blu-rays because CC produced faithful transfers with film grain intact. This is how film is. Analog video is made up of grain. 35mm has finer grain therefore less visible. 70mm is even sharper but if put under microscope you see the same grain. Someone who doesn't understand this will find Hi-vision video terrible. These Hi-vision films are from 35mm or 70mm masters(Lawrence of Arabia) but if they were to shrink down to 16mm film they would probably look very similar to Muse encoded Laserdisc(Muse LD being a little softer)

I am going to put together capturing hardware in the next few days then I can work on capturing muse video on BD. I am thinking very high bitrate(30+mpbs) 1080i60hz in mpeg-2. Why mpeg-2? comparing blu-rays films with noise now. ones with mpeg-2 look less digitized.
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 Post subject: Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project
PostPosted: 21 Sep 2013, 04:14 
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Very nice assessment of the quality of MUSE discs substance. I use the VHD1900 in the ONKYO to output 480P-1080P HDMI to a Hauppauge Colossus card (NTSC). Once you have everything setup I would be very interested to see stills (frames on the PC) of the Snell & Willcox zone plate from video essentials using the X0 and the rest of your video chain to the PC. MUSE is already 1080i component, so de-interlacing is the only remaining step. The captures will be as good as can be, great project.
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 Post subject: Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project
PostPosted: 21 Sep 2013, 08:42 
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Wow, it'd be amazing to see this project come together. I'm sure there are many (myself included) people who would love to see what a MUSE disc looks like!
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 Post subject: Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project
PostPosted: 26 Sep 2013, 04:06 
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OK New HW update:

My wife and I bought a new MacBook Pro 15" with retina display for her. She agreed I could use it for my project on limited bases:)
This computer has much better specs than mine but most importantly it has 2 thunderbolt connections.

3rd gen i7 quad core @ 2.4ghz
8GB memory
256gb SSD
Intel 4000 with 512mb + NVidia GT650M with 1GB DDR5
2 Thunderbolts @ 10 gbps
3 USB 3.0 @ 5 gbps

I am going to install windows 7 via boot camp on it tomorrow but I might use the mac side for captures if SW is better.

Now I can consider black magic designs intensity shuttle for thunderbolt, usb 3.0 or extreme.

http://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/intensity

any recommendations? I want to buy a capture card ASAP so I can get the project going. I am leaning towards intensity extreme
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 Post subject: Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project
PostPosted: 26 Sep 2013, 04:30 
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I can confirm Hi-Vision LDs are @ 60 frame per second opposed to standard 59.94. Both VXP Gennum in Crystalio II and DVDO ABT2020 in McIntosh Processor can NOT properly convert it to 23.98 frame per second. The results were very poor. Either cadence flags were incorrectly placed(or not placed at all) or Hi-Vision encoding messes up these processors. I can try HQV Vida VHD1900 in my Yamaha receiver and Marvel Qdeo Qyoto in Oppo bd player but I don't think they will do any better. So 1080p24 is out question.

BD specs do not include 1080p60 and 1080i60. I will be capturing Hi-Vision at 1080i60 and convert it to 1080i59.94 frame on the fly via Crystalio II.

Pioneer HLD-X0 Muse out -> composite -> Sony MSC-4000 -> component -> Crystalio II -> HDMI out -> Intensity capture
-> Digi. Coax ----------------------------------> ^
->Analog RCA -> ^
Crystalio II will be used to adjust video to Rec.709 optimal values and convert 60fps to 59.94fps

I will then convert raw stream to mpeg-2 or 4 and burn on BD50

Final product will be:

1080i @ 59.94 Mpeg-4 (Highest possible bitrate)
2ch PCM uncompressed audio (Dolby Surround encoded)

Any BD player should be able to line double it to 1080p59.94 for 1080p displays.
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 Post subject: Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project
PostPosted: 26 Sep 2013, 09:20 
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I really think you will be far better off converting the frame rate in software after capturing. That will also allow you to do IVTC (30-to-24 conversion) if you so wish.
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 Post subject: Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project
PostPosted: 26 Sep 2013, 14:19 
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substance wrote:
OK New HW update:

My wife and I bought a new MacBook Pro 15" with retina display for her. She agreed I could use it for my project on limited bases:)
This computer has much better specs than mine but most importantly it has 2 thunderbolt connections.

3rd gen i7 quad core @ 2.4ghz
8GB memory
256gb SSD
Intel 4000 with 512mb + NVidia GT650M with 1GB DDR5
2 Thunderbolts @ 10 gbps
3 USB 3.0 @ 5 gbps

I am going to install windows 7 via boot camp on it tomorrow but I might use the mac side for captures if SW is better.

Now I can consider black magic designs intensity shuttle for thunderbolt, usb 3.0 or extreme.

http://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/intensity

any recommendations? I want to buy a capture card ASAP so I can get the project going. I am leaning towards intensity extreme


I use the intensity shuttle/3.0, love it. But you want to make sure that these devices are compatible with your mother board, they are very particular.
Another problem I see with your labtop use is the speed in which you write to a harddrive outside the operating system. Needs to be fast so as to not have any drop outs or misaligned data, thus I use internal hard drives on a PC with the latest fastest.
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