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Which title(s) should be processed first? (choose up to 3)
 Alaska: Last Frontier (1994) [00MW-0008]  4%  4%  [ 3 ]
 Atlantis (1991) [PILH-1003]  1%  1%  [ 1 ]
 Back to the Future (1985) [PA-HD80196]  7%  7%  [ 6 ]
 Back to the Future Part II (1989) [PA-HD80914]  1%  1%  [ 1 ]
 Back to the Future Part III (1990) [PA-HD80976]  1%  1%  [ 1 ]
 Basic Instinct (1992) (Uncut) [PILH-1002]  0%  0%  [ 0 ]
 Bram Stoker's Dracula (1992) [HVMC-14590]  4%  4%  [ 3 ]
 Bugsy (1991) [HVMC-13645]  1%  1%  [ 1 ]
 Chaplin (1992) [PILH-1005]  1%  1%  [ 1 ]
 Cliffhanger (1993) [PILH-1007]  2%  2%  [ 2 ]
 Close Encounters of the Third Kind: Special Edition (1980) [HVMC-10003]  1%  1%  [ 1 ]
 Dances with Wolves (1990) (Uncut) [PILH-7001]  4%  4%  [ 3 ]
 E.T. (1982) [PA-HD77012]  1%  1%  [ 1 ]
 Ferrari of the Art [COLE-50004]  4%  4%  [ 3 ]
 Guyana - The Lost World [00MW-0016]  4%  4%  [ 3 ]
 In the Line of Fire (1993) [HVMC-19668]  0%  0%  [ 0 ]
 Jurassic Park (1993) [PA-HD82061]  11%  11%  [ 9 ]
 Katie & Marielle Labeque: The Loves of Emma Bardac [SRLM 1067]  1%  1%  [ 1 ]
 Lawrence of Arabia (1962) [HVMC-12058]  2%  2%  [ 2 ]
 League of Their Own, A (1992) [HVMC-14589]  0%  0%  [ 0 ]
 Legends of the Fall (1994) [HVMC-21588]  4%  4%  [ 3 ]
 Maeda - Hills of the Seasons (1990) [00MW-0005]  1%  1%  [ 1 ]
 Musee du Louvre 2 [ICHL-0002]  2%  2%  [ 2 ]
 Pictures at an Exhibition, Solti CSO [SRLM 1068]  4%  4%  [ 3 ]
 Pioneer: Hi-Vision LD Demonstration Disc (1993) [HE-100]  12%  12%  [ 10 ]
 Silence of the Lambs, The (1991) [HVMC-12819]  2%  2%  [ 2 ]
 Sleepless in Seattle (1993) [HVMC-19799]  0%  0%  [ 0 ]
 Song of Africa (1997) [00MW-0014]  0%  0%  [ 0 ]
 Sony: The Test Disc (1995) [00MW-0009]  7%  7%  [ 6 ]
 Stargate (1994) [PILH-1008]  6%  6%  [ 5 ]
 Terminator 2: Judgment Day (1991) [PILH-1001]  10%  10%  [ 8 ]
 Top Gun (1986) [PA-HD71692]  1%  1%  [ 1 ]
 Universal Soldier (1992) [PILH-1004]  0%  0%  [ 0 ]
 Wolf (1994) [HVMC-18647]  0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Total votes : 83

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 Post subject: Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project
PostPosted: 28 Sep 2013, 04:27 
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recording 2 separate streams of 2 track audio is good enough. there is no need for 5ch since rear audio tracks are mono. there are some audio recorders that can record 2 separate 2ch analog audio simultaneously. I have to dig harder but I am sure there are audio card which can capture 2 separate digital tracks simultaneously(if not I will do 2 separate passes) I don't know what kind of sw exist for mac or pc to make this 5.1 or 5.0. I think DANCE encoding bitrates on MUSE exceeds ac-3. It would be nice if 5.0 or 5.1 LPCM could be created. A 5.1 ac-3 track could be also added for legacy product support. 2ch digital efm track if available will be in untouched 2ch PCM as separate track. So hw part is not a big issue but I dont know if sw exist to merge 2x2ch tracks into 5.1 ac-3 or 5.1 lossless LPCM.

If I can get the hardware and software for audio part, the final product will be:

Video Versions:
Raw Version:
1080i @ 59.96 frame per second in Mpeg-4 or VC-1(supports interlaced encoding without converting to progressive). VC-1 also makes it possible to burn HD-DVD-R discs. Only color and contrast adjustments to rec.709 to get correct colors on digital displays. No EE, DNR, contrast boosting.

Enhanced Version:
1080p @ 23.97 frame per second in Mpeg-4 or VC-1(see above). Converted via sw after capture.
color and contrast corrected as raw version.

Audio Tracks:

MUSE Discs with A-Mode (3+1ch audio) and 2ch PCM. Note: Almost all Muse LDs with A-mode has 2ch digital efm PCM track.

Track 1: LPCM 5.0 (A-Mode 3+1) Independent Left, Center , Right and duplicated 2 mono surrounds. this requires bass management in AVR(not all have it) but only way to listen to MUSE A-Mode in original form.

Track 2: LPCM 5.1 (A-Mode 3+1) Independent Left, Center, Right and duplicated 2 mono surrounds .1 subwoofer track retracted from sum of all 4 original A-mode tracks with low-pass filter (200hz)

Track 3: PCM 2.0 (EFM Digital tracks) as Dolby Surround encoded. Unaltered.

Track 4: Dolby Digital 5.1 @640kbps version of track 2. (Dolby Digital Plus @ 3.0 mbps for HD-DVD)

Muse Discs with B-Mode (2ch audio). Note: Almost all Muse LDs with B-mode has no digital EFM track.

Track 1: PCM 2.0 (B-Mode 2ch)

Subtitles can be added (even multiple languages) if there is demand and help.
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 Post subject: Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project
PostPosted: 28 Sep 2013, 08:11 
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substance wrote:
1080i @ 59.96 frame per second in Mpeg-4 or VC-1(supports interlaced encoding without converting to progressive). VC-1 also makes it possible to burn HD-DVD-R discs.


Please no interlaced VC-1. I still have nightmares from all the problems trying to decode it in software 2 years ago. HD DVD supports MPEG-4 AVC.
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 Post subject: Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project
PostPosted: 28 Sep 2013, 09:27 
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VC-1 and MPEG 4 aren't possible on HD DVD-R anyway, at least I don't know of any software than can do it. MPEG 2 is really the only option for video but it should be sufficient. I'm working on an HD DVD project right now and getting it burned to disc is difficult, my current software solution isn't working for the final output so I'm going to go another route on it which I think might work.

1080p isn't possible either on HD DVD-R, at least in the software that I've looked into thus far, just 1920x1080i, not sure if 60fps will work either, 24 or 30 works. I've tested bit rates as low as 13mbps for HD DVD and it looks surprisingly well. Another possibility is 3x DVD playable on HD DVD players only, but it would be a cheap way of doing HD beside BD, only problem there is an even lower bit rate than 15 gb HD DVD-R. For 90 mins of HD video you'll be at about 13-15 mbps on a 15 gb disc. If you can find any 30 gb DL's you could pump it up to 20+, but good luck finding those. Blu ray would be easiest, but I've yet to burn any yet. Maybe next year I'll do some after I upgrade to an AVCHD camera.

I agree, avoid any post DNR, I tried doing 3 different levels, low, med, high on my project and they all increased sharpness but at the cost of displaying noise in blocky unnatural grain. I think for DNR to work effectively it needs to be done from a higher source, like the original film.

Not sure what Dolby Digital Plus software is out there, so far I haven't seen any, but standard DD works, possibly it might encode it on the next software I get.

If the rear channels are just mono from the fronts then it wouldn't need a separate capture anyway. They could just be matrixed into new rear channels post capture, plus a center with +3 db gain, rear surrounds should be -3 db. LFE low pass could be added easily. I just got through doing a 5.1 mix last week, it's pretty easy. The end result is a .AC3 track which you would dump in with your video asset or you could do another encode and merge them back together. Simplest way is to split the audio from the video after your capture and work with video/audio separately. Once you have the audio split from video then you can import the individual streams and make your front/right/center/left surr/right suff/LFE track -s. I have the software for it, plus the Dolby Digital software. I can encode it up to 640 kbps, not sure if 640 will work in all HD DVD, DVD or BD authoring tools, but 448 should work no problem. I know DVD Studio Pro wouldn't take 640 but it took 448 and lower.

If you need help on the audio part I have everything to do it and I could get it done fairly quickly. I think the files are small enough you could just upload them somewhere and then I could post the final Dolby Digital 5.1 output. Also if you wanted other variations, like 3F1R or 2F, 2F2R, I could mix those too. I think my 90 min .AC3 track was at about 260 mb, or it could be put on a CD.

I can tell you the best method of removing the audio on your MBP if you want to go that route. But for HD DVD I'm stuck on the burning part until I get my next software in. I'd say do the Blu ray first then if anyone wants HD DVD then worry about that later. Discs are getting hard to find and expensive now, although the 8.5 GB 3xDVD variation has my interest right now. I might experiment with those myself.
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 Post subject: Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project
PostPosted: 28 Sep 2013, 16:47 
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tomtastic wrote:
I'm working on an HD DVD project right now and getting it burned to disc is difficult, my current software solution isn't working for the final output so I'm going to go another route on it which I think might work.

1080p isn't possible either on HD DVD-R, at least in the software that I've looked into thus far, just 1920x1080i, not sure if 60fps will work either, 24 or 30 works. I've tested bit rates as low as 13mbps for HD DVD and it looks surprisingly well. Another possibility is 3x DVD playable on HD DVD players only, but it would be a cheap way of doing HD beside BD, only problem there is an even lower bit rate than 15 gb HD DVD-R. For 90 mins of HD video you'll be at about 13-15 mbps on a 15 gb disc. If you can find any 30 gb DL's you could pump it up to 20+, but good luck finding those. Blu ray would be easiest, but I've yet to burn any yet. Maybe next year I'll do some after I upgrade to an AVCHD camera.


Great reason to skip the authoring to DVD or BR and just stick with HDD's, sky is the limit. But then you need to integrate the PC/labtop into the viewing system. Which is getting better each year for quality options.
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 Post subject: Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project
PostPosted: 28 Sep 2013, 17:01 
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I love Plex but it's missing a few key features like a place to put Special Features, plus no way to do Lossless sound only Lossey. But for this project, yeah any media center will do, but I gather not many here care about them so direct disc is going to be most preferred option.
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 Post subject: Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project
PostPosted: 28 Sep 2013, 17:45 
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Yeah - if you can, encode interlaced MPEG-2 at about 28-29Mb/sec, from what I can tell that would work for both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray. (Not that I'd really consider making HD-DVD-R's at this point.)
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 Post subject: Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project
PostPosted: 28 Sep 2013, 18:45 
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The ideal solution for audio would be to take the "Bitstream" output from the MUSE decoder & decode the DANCE audio to multichannel PCM in software.

I think I have all the necessary documentation to do this, but like a bunch of other stuff, it's waiting on my PC rebuild, which is waiting on budget more than anything. The bitstream format is a pretty straightforward 1350 kbps NRZ, & the ADPCM decoding is simple enough. The two main things requiring experiment are interleaving & the error-correction codes — the Hi-Vision LD variant of the latter is not adequately documented, & I simply don't know whether the stream is de-interleaved before being output (although I suspect it is not), plus one of my references describes an additional interleaving step which is not documented elsewhere.
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 Post subject: Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project
PostPosted: 28 Sep 2013, 18:59 
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28-30 would work on Blu ray, not on a 15 gb HD DVD-R, unless you only have 30 mins of video. You're max on 2 hrs is going to be about 13mbps. I think this is why the better format won: Blu ray. Toshiba really screwed the pooch on HD DVD. They should have looked at 30 GB layers instead of 15. Right out of the gate they were using most releases with 30 GB DL, while most BD's at the time were only 25 GB SL. Now the bit rate is nearly double what it was back in '06. Looking at some MVC 3D bit rates, close to 40, some iMax are over 40 MPEG-2. The Canon XF 300/305 models encode at 50 mbps constant MPEG-2, try putting that on a 15 gb HD DVD bit per bit. Even Blu ray it'd be about an hour max, Blu ray maxes out at 45 mbps or so, so maybe not bit per bit anyway.

With HD DVD the bit rate would always have been lower even if they were still around and a competing format. We still haven't seen higher than 50 gb discs from studios on BD, and current players won't play the next gen discs 100gb plus demanded by 4K sets. So the 15/30 format from HD DVD would likely still be around. The 51gb 3 layer, they never said if it was compatible with current players, probably not.

Yeah, Blu ray is going to be easiest. Since you (substance) have a Mac, I'd look at dvdfab's Blu ray creator. I'll probably be getting it, because it's cheap and simple. Otherwise you'll probably have to run something in windows and more $.

Blu ray authoring can get rather expensive quickly, another reason why Blu ray for professionals isn't taking off like it should. Where's the 3D blu ray authoring support? Oh, there's Blu print, you got 50k to drop on software? Well, I think I did find one other solution, but support is limited right now on 3D. Plus as substance pointed out, no 1080 60p support on Blu ray, no problem with it on a media center from HDD. AVCHD 2.0 compliant cameras have been around for a few years now, yet no way to author them to disc for professionals. Unless you count flash drives to distribute but no box art. Flash drives cost more than 25 or 50 gb discs. Disc technology still cheapest way to go, Blu ray needs to step up or it will be gone like HD DVD.
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 Post subject: Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project
PostPosted: 28 Sep 2013, 20:36 
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publius wrote:
The ideal solution for audio would be to take the "Bitstream" output from the MUSE decoder & decode the DANCE audio to multichannel PCM in software.

I think I have all the necessary documentation to do this, but like a bunch of other stuff, it's waiting on my PC rebuild, which is waiting on budget more than anything. The bitstream format is a pretty straightforward 1350 kbps NRZ, & the ADPCM decoding is simple enough. The two main things requiring experiment are interleaving & the error-correction codes — the Hi-Vision LD variant of the latter is not adequately documented, & I simply don't know whether the stream is de-interleaved before being output (although I suspect it is not), plus one of my references describes an additional interleaving step which is not documented elsewhere.


Not sure what other hardware/software is out there, from my experience and it's likely the same on the black magic as the HD PVR, the HD PVR captures analog/digital audio at either 384kbps AAC or AC3 your choice, or from the SPDIF at whatever the bit rate is. It can't auto detect from the rca's, since it's not digital. Basically just encodes it into a digital format at 384kbps. The AC3 stuff I capture on Directv is either 384 or sometimes 448 at random. If you have an AVC HD camcorder you could capture the audio via 2 ch xlr imputs at 1.5mbps LPCM. Other than that method, I think it just isn't going to be cost effective, unless there's another method of capturing the higher source in the sub $500.00 capture card method. I think the black magics's audio capture would be sufficient. You could post process it at 640 then do a final 448 if you're output won't take anything higher. I'm pretty sure max is 448 on DVD but Blu ray should take 640, haven't tried it myself yet on Blu ray.
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 Post subject: Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project
PostPosted: 28 Sep 2013, 21:07 
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Below is my current hardware:

Lenovo ThinkPad X201 PC:

Windows 7 Professional 64 bit with XP mode
i7-M620(2nd gen) Dual Core with HT 4mb cache 2.66Ghz (turbo boost to 3.2Ghz)
8Gb DDR3 8500mhz (2x4gb)
180Gb Intel 520 Solid State Drive
Intel 2000 graphics
USB 2.0, FireWire 800

Apple MacBook Pro with Retina Display

OS X 10.8 + Windows 7 Ultimate 64 bit via boot camp(dual boot)
i7 (3rd gen) Quad Core with HT 6mb cache 2.4Ghz (turbo boost to 3.4Ghz)
8Gb DDR3 1600mhz (2x4gb integrated to motherboard)
256gb Solid State Drive (integrated to motherboard)
Intel 4000 graphics with 512mb + NVidia GT650 with 1gb DDR5
USB 3.0, Thunderbolt

Pioneer BDR-XD04 external BD burner.
Black Magic Design Intensity Shuttle with Thunderbolt

It looks like its going to be 1080i at 59.94 frame in Mpeg-2 onto BD50 discs.

Intensity Shuttle has 2 analog RCA inputs and no digital inputs other than HDMI.
I can grab B-Mode 2ch audio from analog outputs and intensity will convert it to 24bit digital audio. For EFM digital tracks I can grab audio from HLD-X0's analog outputs and again intensity will make it 24bit digital PCM.

I am not interested in A-Mode 3+1 tracks. If anybody is interested, I can capture 2ch at a time(2 passes) and provide to you 4ch of 24bit PCM digital audio.


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 Post subject: Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project
PostPosted: 28 Sep 2013, 21:24 
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I'm talking about importing the bitstream that contains the compressed audio as serial data, & then decoding it into multichannel PCM once it's in the computer. It would have to be sync'd up, but a capture of one of the analog audio channels ought to be good enough for that purpose.
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 Post subject: Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project
PostPosted: 28 Sep 2013, 22:34 
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I am willing to share the work. Would any of you be willing to turn this into a team project?

I have most of the needed hardware. Most importantly the player, decoder and discs. I can provide to you raw data(both audio and video)

-I can use help on software side. Mainly audio encoding.
-I can use help in cover art. Anyone with photo editing knowledge. I do own a laser color printer(I don't know if suitable). Also art on disc itself.
-I can use help in custom cases(ideas). I am thinking using cases other than blue BD cases. They should be unique to Hi-Vision. Maybe DVD size grey cases for Panasonic release, gold color cases for Sony etc..
-I definitely need help on description(write up) so we don't get ourselves in legal trouble. Maybe include an insert in casing about the process, a little information on MUSE/Hi-Vision.
-It would be great if we can find a way to make slipcases for 2 disc releases. 2 separate bd or dvd cases(1 case per disc) and place inside a slipcase.
-If anybody is interested in extra work(and help me), we can include SD version of that same film(LD capture) as bonus with extras ported from that LD version(or multiple LD versions) as an extra bonus disc(DVD or BD). For example I have Cliffhanger on Muse and Squeeze LD(anamorphic).

I can also capture D-Theater tapes and create Blu-ray discs. There are a few exclusives such as True Lies in 1080i in mpeg-2 at constant 28mbps and 1.5mbps DTS audio. My JVC deck has both HDMI and FireWire for bit-to-bit captures.


I already contacted Julien to be my team partner in this. I am thinking this to be LDDB only type distribution as well as none-profit one. There will be a mandatory donation to LDDB.com per disc.

Here are the rules if any of you want to join the project:

-This will be a lddb.com only project. Only lddb.com members can buy copies. (more on this later)
-No profit is expected. I will not expect any revenue for obtaining muse discs, player, decoder, capture device et.. So members will be able to afford these copies at reasonable rates. Maybe a very small amount could be added to cost(blank media, paper, ink, postage etc..) to be distributed to each helping member for their time and effort.
-There will be a mandatory donation to lddb.com per discs. Amount will be decided by team members and Julien/admin.
-Team members will get access to raw data and any completed project at cost.
-These copies will be created for personal use only. It is strictly forbidden to duplicate these discs(other than personal use) hand over to other members or none-members. They can not be re-sold, allowed for online torrents or any mass distribution.
-To prevent just anyone to buy these discs, also possible unauthorized mass production/distribution. Only members with good standing and no less than certain amount of active posts(number will be decided with team members)
-Each disc will be serial numbered, so if we see one being sold on eBay.com we know who we sold it to:)
-If there is a demand from team members, we can number each copy on a limited run. for example 1 out of 100(I get copy 1:)
-If there is more demand, we can release 2nd batch copies with altered cover art, content etc..

As you can tell, I am not hoping to make profit from this. I want to help out serious LD collectors on certain hard to obtain copies. This project will make lddb.com more unique than already it is.

I already contacted Julien(admin) if he would like to join as team member. I am not expecting much from him as we are already using his forum. I am open to any ideas. If there is nobody want to join this team. I will do it on my own. It will be a much simpler project. I can't promise I can provide copies to everyone.
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 Post subject: Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project
PostPosted: 28 Sep 2013, 23:30 
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I could volunteer for the audio and actually I just printed out a glossy print HD DVD cover for my own project and it was stunning! I could make a custom BD cover of course for this one.

For the audio, you'd of course have to capture it. I think just doing the 2 channel PCM method would be fine. You'd also have to separate the audio and send it to me or send both and I can take the audio off and do the audio part. Both of your machines are fast enough to do the video part. I'd recommend doing it on the MBP, just to make sure the file systems are the same from the audio to video part. Plus the MBP will eat that Think Pad for lunch.

For separating the audio first, the apps are free and I could tell you where to download them and how exactly to do it to save you time if you haven't done it before, this would save you hours of work with experimenting. Or I could do that part too, I guess it doesn't matter if you have to send it by mail anyway. You'll need to start looking at BD tools, dvdfab is the only one I know of on the Mac that's cheap. It's just a one time purchase, not a subscription like some.

I'd suggest doing a small video/audio capture and see what the specs are first when you get the Black Magic hooked up. That way we know what we're working with. I'm personally interested in seeing what the audio is encoded at on that device RAW, because I'm thinking about upgrading to an HDMI capture myself, so it's between the HD PVR 2 and the Black Magic.

I could put the cover art on the CD too in JPEG then you could print it out. The glossy photo paper looks real good, can't wait to finally get a burned disc to go with my project.

But I could provide you with a final 5.1 4.0 or whatever from the 2 ch plus a 2 ch standard track then you can decide what all you want to use. You should be able to add several tracks just like DVD. From what it sounds like you guys are saying on the MUSE, and I have no idea how that works but if it's just mono from the front channels, that could be easily replicated post capture and save you countless hours of unnecessary work. Basically, I could have it done in a few hours. It wouldn't take long. The Dolby Digital software I have only runs on my older Power Mac G5 so it won't run on what you have, plus it's licensed to me, so it wouldn't do any good to send it to you. Actually there's about 3 programs I use.

One thing to remember is that the video capture elapse time can't be altered or trimmed later because when you go to add the audio tracks in with your video asset they won't line up! We'll need to keep them the same length. I know in DVD Studio Pro I could trim the length but it might differ on your BD authoring tool. You'll also need to check on your Blu ray authoring tool and see if it lets you add audio and video separately, I think it should, because just like DVD you can have multiple audio tracks for video assets.

The True Lies one, I'm not sure on because I don't know of a way to capture DTS, as far as I know there isn't a way to do it so I've given up looking. That one should be out on Blu ray soon, not sure why it's not out already. And The Abyss. Unless the DVD has DTS then it could be grabbed from there, of course it's probably 768 kbps.
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 Post subject: Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project
PostPosted: 29 Sep 2013, 00:08 
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@tomtastic if you accept it, I would like to work with you. What shall we name this team project? MUSE Project? Hi-Vision Project?

More on MUSE audio here:

-MUSE discs have 1 bitstream for muse signal which has video and audio together. MUSE player streams this signal via 1 composite rca connector to Muse decoder.
-MUSE decoder decodes video and audio turns it into 1080i60hz video via component output and muse audio via rca analog outputs and optical digital.
-MUSE audio is DANCE encoded can be in 2 configurations(can only have one per disc)
-A-MODE 3+1 audio. Independent/discrete left, center , right channels and +1 here is the mono surround channel(discrete again) . Decoder has 5 rca connectors in the back 1 for left, 1 for center, 1 for right and 2 (same info) rca connectors for mono surround.
-On digital optical outputs it outputs left and right info on 1 optical output and center and surround on 2nd optical output.
-B-MODE 2.0 audio is Left and Right ch only. They are Dolby surround encoded like LD digital tracks. B-Mode has higher resolution than A-Mode.
-A-MODE is 15bit 32khz for each Ch. B-MODE is 16bit 48khz(or 44.1khz) for each ch. Bitrate is I believe is 1350kbps.
-There is also a digital PCM audio stream just like the regular LD(separate from the muse signal). This is outputted from the LD player in form of optical or coaxial. LD player can internally apply D/A conversion and output via analog RCA outputs.
-Muse LDs with A-Mode usually have the separate digital audio track. Muse LDs with B-Mode usually don't have the extra digital track.

I have the hardware to provide to you Left, Center, Right, Mono Surround(4.0) in 24bit PCM. You will have to keep left center right as they are but multiply mono surround info into 2. Thus turn it into 5.0 PCM. Then apply low pass filter at 200hz and retract that info as .1 subwoofer Ch.
5.1 LPCM would be the best as it offers higher bitrates but Dolby Digital 5.1 is better than nothing. I believe 448kbps is the highest the DVD can handle.

I will get the intensity shuttle on Monday. I am pretty sure I can get a sampler BD ready by next weekend.

I should start a new thread as we are now in production. We can keep this thread as pre-production.
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 Post subject: Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project
PostPosted: 29 Sep 2013, 00:21 
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Just going to put in one last vote for AVC instead of MPEG-2 before I give up on that.

You should confirm that you are actually able to capture D-Theater. It shouldn't be possible unless you get a black-market box from Japan, because there is copy protection over the Firewire connection. All of the exclusives have been captured and shared online by pirate groups, but the original streams have disappeared over the years in favor of 720p re-encodes.

tomtastic wrote:
Not sure what other hardware/software is out there, from my experience and it's likely the same on the black magic as the HD PVR, the HD PVR captures analog/digital audio at either 384kbps AAC or AC3 your choice, or from the SPDIF at whatever the bit rate is.


The BlackMagic will only capture uncompressed audio. No bitstreaming. I believe it simply mutes the audio when it encounters a bitstream, to avoid users complaining of loud noise coming through their captures.
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 Post subject: Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project
PostPosted: 29 Sep 2013, 01:06 
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From my experience with the BM intensity hub 3.0, the RCA sound capture is not that good. I would highly recommend a separate sound capture to some sort of a bit perfect capture device or at worst a DAC type device, although the DAC of course will convert from digital to analog and vice versa, but not much should be lost. I use the DAC type device for my digital captures from the LD player, sounds far better than the RCA BM captures, which of course is RCA coming out of the LD/VHS player using their old built in DAC.

I use Audacity (free) to capture the sound to the PC.

Anyone have a suggestion on a good bit perfect capture device that they are using successfully?
I would love to capture digital sound directly as is?

After capturing the sound separate, I would combine the sound with your picture in your video editing program.


Last edited by elviscaprice on 29 Sep 2013, 01:21, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project
PostPosted: 29 Sep 2013, 01:17 
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Elvis Can you post some links to good audio devices ?

BTW I forgot to mention. MUSE/Hi-Vision is actually 1125i but 1035i is what's visible. I am using Crystalio II to zoom into the image by %4 to fit it inside 1080p display. Direct capture from MUSE decoder will yield pillar boxed 1035 pixel image. Is it possible to zoom by %4 via software?
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 Post subject: Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project
PostPosted: 29 Sep 2013, 01:38 
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substance wrote:
Elvis Can you post some links to good audio devices ?



Substance, I wish I could point you in the right direction here of an actual device/card that would be perfect, but I can't. I am hoping that someone here can point us to a device that is bit perfect and how you would go about copying that into your MAC labtop or PC without any analog conversion, thus bit perfect.

If not, then we need a good DAC.
I do know that when it comes to DAC's it's more a question in how much you want to spend. Many options. I'll leave that to others here.

For myself, I find that my Sound Blaster hub does a fantastic job sound wise for me. It accepts the digital signal (LPCM) optically from the LD player and does a great job sound wise for my ears. Via usb 2.0 the signal is written down with Audacity (in LPCM) where I can edit/normalize the sound.
I think you can get this hub for around $70. But there are other cards/hubs available.
Here is the one I use. http://www.amazon.com/Creative-Sound-Bl ... er+SB+1240
What I like about this hub is that it is mobile to any PC. Great for playback. Great for any analog/digital captures, even vinyl. Maybe not the best, but for the bang for the buck it's plenty good for my ears and I am quite picky when it comes to audio sound.

Of course I'm just talking about 2 channel LPCM. Start talking multiple channels and I will thus defer to others, never been a need for myself for multiple channel captures.


Last edited by elviscaprice on 29 Sep 2013, 02:27, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project
PostPosted: 29 Sep 2013, 02:18 
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I'd be happy to help.

The optical solution is interesting, unfortunately the Black Magic only does bitstreaming over HDMI. Mine has the optical in/out. I have the HD PVR 1212 which usually goes on eBay for around 125.00 plus the mac software which is 30.00, it's 3rd party app. Not that the Black Magic isn't a good solution, I'm actually leaning toward it for my next upgrade as it'd be nice to have one with HDMI and 4:2:2 color, HD PVR 1212 is just 4:2:0, but it's one of the few devices that captures up to 5.1 DD 448 kbps, actually it might do 640 if there was a source for it, not sure.

With optical, the individual streams would ultimately require two captures with optical. One for the left/right and one for the center and rear surround (mono center). So a 3F1R. That would be the best way, but even with the RCA connectors it will take two encodes one for left/right and one for center/surround (I assume one of the surrounds could be discarded since they're both mono? Or are they a mono of the left front and left right? There would be a difference.) If so then it'd take 3 captures. Or you can take the easy way out and just do a 2 channel and we can mix the center and surrounds.

So how does it mix the center and rear? Is it on the fly? I guess if it's unique to the MUSE system then it might be important to get the actual capture of how the decoder outputs the extra channels, that way you'd get the same audio experience and leave it in the same format at least for one audio track.

Something to think about right now.

Overall, I think all of these are possible, obviously the dual capture will take a bit more work. But we can do a 3F1R (MUSE Audio track) or a 3F2R (if it's actually discrete rear) a new 3F2RLFE mix plus a 2.0, heck there should be room for all four on a 50 GB disc. Each track should only take up about 500mb max depending on bit rate and length.

I'm not sure on LPCM. The only way I know would be to capture 2 ch's at a time into an AVCHD camcorder via xlr's at 1.5 mbps, but it might be overkill anyway. And that option would all be on your end, there's software you can download and mix them into the channels you need, not sure on the LFE channel though. I haven't messed with LPCM yet, possibly in the near future.
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 Post subject: Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project
PostPosted: 29 Sep 2013, 08:48 
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Are the discs you have really 1035i? The "Ferrari of the Art" encode I have uses all 1080 lines, give or take a couple, and Wiki says that both 1035 and 1080 were used for MUSE broadcasts. Either way, I say keep it as-is. Resizing will screw up the interlacing.

tomtastic wrote:
The optical solution is interesting, unfortunately the Black Magic only does bitstreaming over HDMI.

It captures uncompressed PCM over HDMI, which isn't usually what people mean by "bitstreaming" audio.

Something like this should allow you to do RCA SPDIF from the MSC-4000 -> HDMI -> BlackMagic:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Component-Video ... 0174705226
http://www.amazon.com/Monoprice-Compone ... 003L16ZHW/

Of course, that would mean capturing each side at least 3 times: video direct, video+audio1 converted, video+audio2 converted...

Alternatively,
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Coaxial-RCA-to- ... 0550292496
+
http://www.ebay.com/itm/USB-2-0-Externa ... 1152120267

But I could only get bit-perfect recording in WinXP.
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