LaserDisc Database
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MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project
https://forum.lddb.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=3134
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Author:  substance [ 22 Aug 2013, 20:12 ]
Post subject:  MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project

HI-VISION/MUSE Laserdiscs have been around for decades but only a few dozen people have seen them in action in real life. Since the arrival of my MUSE decoder, my personal home theater setup is one of those privileged systems with this capability. Before I completed my Hi-Vision Setup, I always wondered what MUSE LD looked like. I am sure there is many out there who is as curious as I was. I want to help my fellow lddb.com members. I decided to build a capturing setup so I can transfer MUSE LDs onto Blu-ray disc or similar media. I am not looking to profit from this project nor I am planning to dedicate the rest of my life making copies to everyone. So this will be a limited quantity project only to those who contributed and for now exclusive to lddb.com members. Once I have copies and you get one, you are free to make extra copies for your friends.

Current Status

First test capture is complete (2/5/2016)
Custom Capture PC being built (5/19/2017)


Dropbox link to Jurassic Park HiVision LD capture file

Below is the list of my current setup(only LD related part)

Laserdisc transport/player:
-Pioneer HLD-X0
-Pioneer HLD-X9

Muse decoder:
-Sony MSC-4000

Video Processors:
-Lumagen Radiance Pro 4449
-Lumagen Radiance 2144
-Algolith Mosquito HDMI

Burner/Recorders:
-Pioneer BDR-XD04 external Blu-ray disc burner with BDXL capability(4 layer 100GB discs)
-Toshiba SD-L912A internal HD-DVD disc burner placed inside enclosure to be used as external.

Software:
-Black Magic Design Media Express

Calibration Gear:
-Calman 5 Enthusiast
-SpectraCal C6-HDR
-X-Rite i1 Pro 2 (Enhanced) Spectroradiometer

Custom Capture PC
LG 27UD69P-W 4K Monitor (%99 sRGB)
Intel i7-7700k CPU (Overclocked)
Asus Tuf Z270 Mark 1 Motherboard
MSI/Corsair GeForce GTX 1080 Sea Hawk X GPU (Overclocked)
Corsair Dominator Platinum 4x16GB DDR4 (Overclocked)
Samsung 960Pro M.2 NVME SSD 2x1TB in Raid0 Main Storage
Black Magic Design Intensity Pro 4K PCIe Capture Card

Author:  substance [ 22 Aug 2013, 20:21 ]
Post subject:  Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project

Attachment:
HV LDs.jpg
HV LDs.jpg [ 112.65 KiB | Viewed 6206 times ]

Muse/Hi-Vision Titles in Hand(5/19/2017)
Sony:

Bram Stoker's Dracula (1992) [HVMC-14590]
Bugsy (1991) [HVMC-13645]
Close Encounters of the Third Kind: Special Edition (1980) [HVMC-10003]
In the Line of Fire (1993) [HVMC-19668]
Lawrence of Arabia (1962) [HVMC-12058]
League of Their Own, A (1992) [HVMC-14589]
Legends of the Fall (1994) [HVMC-21588]
Silence of the Lambs, The (1991) [HVMC-12819]
Sleepless in Seattle (1993) [HVMC-19799]

Panasonic:

Back to the Future (1985) [PA-HD80196]
Back to the Future Part II (1989) [PA-HD80914]
Back to the Future Part III (1990) [PA-HD80976]
E.T. (1982) [PA-HD77012]
Jurassic Park (1993) [PA-HD82061]

Pioneer:

Atlantis (1991) [PILH-1003]
Basic Instinct (1992) (Uncut) [PILH-1002]
Chaplin (1992) [PILH-1005]
Cliffhanger (1993) [PILH-1007]
Dances with Wolves (1990) (Uncut) [PILH-7001]
Stargate (1994) [PILH-1008]
Terminator 2: Judgment Day (1991) [PILH-1001]
Top Gun (1986) [PA-HD71692]
Universal Soldier (1992) [PILH-1004]
Wolf (1994) [HVMC-18647]

Demo

Alaska: Last Frontier (1994) [00MW-0008]
Ferrari of the Art [COLE-50004]
Guyana - The Lost World [00MW-0016]
Katie & Marielle Labeque: The Loves of Emma Bardac [SRLM 1067]
Maeda - Hills of the Seasons (1990) [00MW-0005]
Musee du Louvre 2 [ICHL-0002]
Pictures at an Exhibition, Solti CSO [SRLM 1068]
Pioneer: Hi-Vision LD Demonstration Disc (1993) [HE-100]
Song of Africa (1997) [00MW-0014]
Sony: The Test Disc (1995) [00MW-0009]

Author:  substance [ 23 Aug 2013, 03:03 ]
Post subject:  Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project

HD PVR2 from Hauppauge
http://www.hauppauge.com/site/products/data_hdpvr2.html

Highlights:
H.264 AVCHD encoder
Data rates from 1mbps to 13.5mbps (This isn't really high but might just enough for MUSE)
1080i60 compatible

There is no mention of 1080p24hz. Website states up to 1080p60hz(recorded as 1080p30hz).

Author:  substance [ 23 Aug 2013, 03:06 ]
Post subject:  Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project

Elgato Game Capture-HD
http://www.elgato.com/gaming/game-capture-hd

This product is similar to HD PVR2

Author:  substance [ 23 Aug 2013, 03:08 ]
Post subject:  Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project

Roxio Game Capture HDMI
http://www.roxio.com/enu/products/game- ... d_B_052012
Again specs aren't clear but looks to be similar product.

Author:  substance [ 23 Aug 2013, 03:15 ]
Post subject:  Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project

Blackmagic Design H.264 pro recorder:

http://www.blackmagicdesign.com/product ... rorecorder

Looks fantastic but at $499 it is the most expensive

Author:  publius [ 23 Aug 2013, 03:55 ]
Post subject:  Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project

I don't really have any advice, as I intend to install a Blackmagic Intensity Pro card in my desktop computer the next time I rebuild it, probably this upcoming month. One thing to be aware of is that any capture device you install will have to support true 60 Hz vertical rate (74.25 MHz pixel clock), as some may only support the NTSC-derived 59.94 Hz vertical with 74.176 MHz pixel clock. If the spec sheet doesn't say, don't assume.

Author:  disclord [ 23 Aug 2013, 08:51 ]
Post subject:  Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project

substance wrote:
HD PVR2 from Hauppauge
http://www.hauppauge.com/site/products/data_hdpvr2.html

Highlights:
H.264 AVCHD encoder
Data rates from 1mbps to 13.5mbps (This isn't really high but might just enough for MUSE)
1080i60 compatible

There is no mention of 1080p24hz. Website states up to 1080p60hz(recorded as 1080p30hz).


Once you capture at 60I, you can deinterlace and apply inverse telecine to achieve 24P. I have Sony Vegas Pro and it will do that. It will also allow you to convert the true 24P signal to the .1% slower "NTSC rate" of 23.97P that's used instead of true 24P.

So don't worry about your capture card deinterlacing or converting to 24P - all that should be done after you've achieved a good 1035/60I capture.

Author:  xtempo [ 23 Aug 2013, 14:40 ]
Post subject:  Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project

publius wrote:
I don't really have any advice, as I intend to install a Blackmagic Intensity Pro card in my desktop computer the next time I rebuild it, probably this upcoming month. One thing to be aware of is that any capture device you install will have to support true 60 Hz vertical rate (74.25 MHz pixel clock), as some may only support the NTSC-derived 59.94 Hz vertical with 74.176 MHz pixel clock. If the spec sheet doesn't say, don't assume.


what is the 60Hz for? is that PAL? I intended to copy my all my laserdiscs and possibly burn them to a BD in the coming months or next year. I want to back all of them up for the time when the players quite working.

I'm modding my (2nd) CLD-79 Elite player into a computer since it would cost to much to have it fixed. I haven't started researching but I hope to research more and comparing everything more than my first HTPC build which I might end up using for gaming.

Author:  abc_kid [ 24 Aug 2013, 07:44 ]
Post subject:  Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project

Substance, just wanted to offer some of my MUSE discs to loan out for your project when you are ready. Sadly, my Muse player is currently non working.

Author:  alien [ 24 Aug 2013, 12:54 ]
Post subject:  Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project

This is a excellent idea, Substance and very generous of you. I always wanted to get a sense of what MUSE Hi-Vision would look like on my 55" LED HDTV, however unfortunately there is the issue of region coding which is different for both DVD and Blu-Ray media devices for U.S.A (where you live) and Austarila (where I live).

I really wish there was a way around this because I've been curious about MUSE for years, and obviously never contemplated getting a MUSE player or decoder since its far far too expensive for me and I wouldn't have the space for it anyway.....

Author:  disclord [ 24 Aug 2013, 13:33 ]
Post subject:  Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project

xtempo wrote:
publius wrote:
I don't really have any advice, as I intend to install a Blackmagic Intensity Pro card in my desktop computer the next time I rebuild it, probably this upcoming month. One thing to be aware of is that any capture device you install will have to support true 60 Hz vertical rate (74.25 MHz pixel clock), as some may only support the NTSC-derived 59.94 Hz vertical with 74.176 MHz pixel clock. If the spec sheet doesn't say, don't assume.


what is the 60Hz for? is that PAL? I intended to copy my all my laserdiscs and possibly burn them to a BD in the coming months or next year. I want to back all of them up for the time when the players quite working.


60Hz interlaced (which equals 30 frames per second) is the field rate that MUSE operates at - the original B/W NTSC system also ran at that rate. When color was added to NTSC in 1953, for compatibility reasons, the field rate was slowed down .1% to 59.94 Hz (29.97 frames per second) - and existing televisions handled the change with no problems since the .1% was within thier tolerances - Blu-ray and HDTV's have kept that NTSC timing, so so-called 24P is really 23.97P. So don't worry about backing up your LaserDisc's to BD - their field/frame rates are compatible.

PAL's field rate for interlaced sources is 50 Hz which gives it a frame rate of 25fps. But 1080P BD's are transferred at 23.97fps (aka 24P) instead of the 4% speed up that was/is done for PAL DVD's and LaserDisc's to make them 25fps. Since PAL and NTSC are actually color encoding methods, its really not correct to refer to a DVD or BD as PAL or NTSC, although everyone, including the studios, still does. Movies sped up to 25fps for "PAL" DVD and LaserDisc drive me crazy due to the pitch change in the audio from the speed up - not only does everyone seem to talk faster but the pitch change gives them a chipmunk sound. My laptops DVD player has a feature that will slow a film on PAL DVD back down to 24fps, which makes it watchable - I only wish all multi-region DVD players had such a feature.

Author:  substance [ 24 Aug 2013, 16:15 ]
Post subject:  Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project

alien wrote:
This is a excellent idea, Substance and very generous of you. I always wanted to get a sense of what MUSE Hi-Vision would look like on my 55" LED HDTV, however unfortunately there is the issue of region coding which is different for both DVD and Blu-Ray media devices for U.S.A (where you live) and Austarila (where I live).

I really wish there was a way around this because I've been curious about MUSE for years, and obviously never contemplated getting a MUSE player or decoder since its far far too expensive for me and I wouldn't have the space for it anyway.....

Dont worry I am not going to region code these blurays. Just make sure your player and tv supports 1080i60hz.

Author:  substance [ 24 Aug 2013, 16:16 ]
Post subject:  Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project

I like the black magic card but its more than I would like to pay. Is there a reliable retailer I can find it cheaper.

Author:  substance [ 24 Aug 2013, 19:09 ]
Post subject:  Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project

These are the MUSE titles I have in hand

Attachments:
2.jpg
2.jpg [ 170.9 KiB | Viewed 7114 times ]

Author:  msgohan [ 25 Aug 2013, 03:07 ]
Post subject:  Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project

You could pair a component-to-HDMI converter with a Timeleak HD82E, which is an ExpressCard/34 device that allows lossless capture. According to a review, your laptop's ExpressCard/54 slot would be able to accommodate this form factor. I don't know anything about laptop cards, myself.

The key with that method would be finding a component-to-HDMI converter with high quality analog-to-digital conversion, and wading through clueless user reviews gets a bit tedious.

The real-time H.264 encoder boxes are your only other option if you are unwilling to go for USB 3.0 or internal PCIe, as USB 2.0's bandwidth is far below what is needed for uncompressed HD. The Elgato is the best of the affordable USB 2.0 H.264 encoders, as it allows more than double the bitrate of the Hauppauge units.

If you want to capture audio with the BlackMagic H.264 Pro Recorder you will have to incur the additional cost to convert from unbalanced RCA to balanced 1/4-inch.

Author:  alien [ 26 Aug 2013, 06:10 ]
Post subject:  Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project

substance wrote:
Dont worry I am not going to region code these blurays. Just make sure your player and tv supports 1080i60hz.

I'm not sure if my TV and player supports 1080i60hz, but I do know for fact that they support 1080i50hz.

Do you think you'll ever consider buying Jumanji (1995) on MUSE Hi-Vision? I have the PAL special edition Laserdisc and its a excellent pressing. The PQ for the most part is very vibrant and bold and sharp on my LCD.

Lawrence of Arabia being a film shot in 70mm is another one that I'd be interested in seeing on MUSE.

Author:  substance [ 26 Aug 2013, 14:47 ]
Post subject:  Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project

I do want to buy Jumanji on Hi-Vision. The cover art covers the entire front on this one as the other muse titles have either gold or grey bands above and below. Also it is one of the last Muse titles with supposedly great picture quality due to the latest advancements in the technology. I do however believe I will never find this title for sale for the amount I would like to pay for. Being late release and good reviews on picture it probably goes for $500+

Author:  publius [ 26 Aug 2013, 21:49 ]
Post subject:  Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project

alien wrote:
substance wrote:
Dont worry I am not going to region code these blurays. Just make sure your player and tv supports 1080i60hz.

I'm not sure if my TV and player supports 1080i60hz, but I do know for fact that they support 1080i50hz.


This is not going to be a problem. I do not believe there is any Blu-Ray player or modern TV which supports 50 Hz scanrates but not 60 Hz. On the other hand, there are plenty of displays which support the 60 Hz rates but not 50 Hz.

Author:  substance [ 26 Aug 2013, 21:53 ]
Post subject:  Re: MUSE/HI-VISION to BD/HD-DVD/AVC-DVD Project

I am planning to make a 1080i60hz and 1080p24hz versions. 24frame should work on your display. It wont be a faithful copy of a muse LD but close enough. It might even look better than it is since I will be using a very good video processor to de-interlace it and reverse pull down to 24fps.

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