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| Sega Saturn https://forum.lddb.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=7892 |
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| Author: | signofzeta [ 26 Sep 2020, 16:17 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sega Saturn |
gypsy wrote: Yeah that YYH game on PCE is kinda weird. I've played it a fair bit. If you decide you to play the DBZ one, which is sort of the sequel and more refined, I can provide tips. |
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| Author: | tasuke [ 27 Sep 2020, 17:24 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sega Saturn |
i really don't know what SEGA was thinking with the S-VIDEO-type mini-DIN A/V OUTPUT they implemented for the SATURN. i mean, if you don't make doubly sure that the connection is as firm and tight as you can possibly get it, then you get audio infected with this most infernal grounding buzz...  
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| Author: | signofzeta [ 27 Sep 2020, 19:44 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sega Saturn |
It’s a dainty little thing, but I’ve never had a single issue with it. Perhaps yours is borked in some way. Aside from the cart slot, which is a TOTAL POS, I’ve never had a single issue with Saturn hardware and I own one of almost everything...including a US Mk1 that has 2000 hours on it and many of that playing CD-Rs via hot swapping discs. IMO it is probably the toughest disc based system ever. |
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| Author: | xtempo [ 27 Sep 2020, 21:14 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sega Saturn |
on the slot. How much more would a HD cost? since hard drives were coming down. Sega should have implemented that or something since the slot and my memory card started acting up a few years ago. and if going an internal route there would be less confusion on it playing genesis games (i was never confused even back then but apparently it was a thing) |
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| Author: | signofzeta [ 27 Sep 2020, 23:27 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sega Saturn |
I don’t know if there was a single HD on the market back then that didn’t cost more than a Saturn did. I’m not so sure that would have been possible. The point of the cart slot was that it would be more than just storage. It could expand storage or RAM or ROM and really do almost anything. The pins are total %#@&-ing %*@$ of the worst kind though. DeOxit is almost required to play XMen vs SF. I’m glad most games don’t need a cart. |
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| Author: | gypsy [ 28 Sep 2020, 02:45 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sega Saturn |
It's best to leave a cart in there once you have put one there if you can. A pseudo saturn cart lives in my main console. Never had issues either, and I've also played a lot of cdrs. Audio is fine for me, so maybe there is an issue with tasuke's console. PS1 is another story, though I think I have a reliable unit now, one of those late white psone models. I've now played through multiple rpgs on it. I have I think three dead grey units (and some more that do still work, its a cheap console) the last of which was slain by Xenogears. |
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| Author: | jd213 [ 28 Sep 2020, 03:48 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sega Saturn |
tasuke wrote: i really don't know what SEGA was thinking with the S-VIDEO-type mini-DIN A/V OUTPUT they implemented for the SATURN. i mean, if you don't make doubly sure that the connection is as firm and tight as you can possibly get it, then you get audio infected with this most infernal grounding buzz... I was able to mostly eliminate the buzzing by getting a better cable (Solaris Japan JP21, but Retro Gaming Cables or Retro Access cables would probably be better for you). There's also a way to mod Saturns for SPDIF output. |
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| Author: | elahrairrah [ 28 Sep 2020, 20:48 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sega Saturn |
tasuke wrote: i really don't know what SEGA was thinking with the S-VIDEO-type mini-DIN A/V OUTPUT they implemented for the SATURN. i mean, if you don't make doubly sure that the connection is as firm and tight as you can possibly get it, then you get audio infected with this most infernal grounding buzz... I did wonder about placing the A/V out so close to the power connector, but surprisingly I never get any EM buzz. Only issues I have with the A/V out is that I suppose some of the pins aren't always connecting properly for the component cable I got for it. Just takes a little gentle jostling to get the connections right and the colors to show properly. One odd thing I did find out about the component cable that I have--I had thought that the engineer who made these would have somehow used the same pins as an RGB-21 connector as component is somewhat easy to convert to RGB (and no, if you didn't already know, Component is NOT the same as VGA/RGB--I know MANY people who kept parroting over and over in the late 90s, early 00's that Component is the same as VGA/RGB only to get into shouting matches when I tried to tell them it isn't.) But it appears that this might not be the case. For Vampire Savior, there is a hidden option menu, accessible when you finish the game without continuing) that has a lot of cool options (probably most important for importers is changing the language from Japanese to English) including changing the video output from "S-Video" to "RGB." Using an S-Video cable, I never noticed any difference in the quality of the picture switching between the two, I figured you actually needed an RGB-21 cable (which I do have, but never tried to convert it to anything else to actually use it.) So I tried to see if it made any difference when using Component. It did, but not completely in a good way. The colors were a bit more vivid with that setting through the component cables, but the "screendoor effect" that the Saturn is somewhat known for with its lack of being able to render transparencies was happening A LOT, even in spots where there weren't any transparencies. Most notably in the life guages on screen, can you see the effect. I took some quick and dirty pics that I'll upload in a little bit so you can see the difference. So it appears this engineer may have used different pins on the Saturn A/V output to make this connector rather than what RGB-21 uses or just that an RGB21 signal (at least in this game in particular) doesn't convert easily to Component. Now I really want to try some means of converting RGB21 from the Saturn to component or HDMI to see more differences! |
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| Author: | signofzeta [ 28 Sep 2020, 20:56 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sega Saturn |
...no. I don’t know what you’re seeing on your end specifically but Vampire Savior has the “screen door effect” on the text boxes and such because the CPS2 arcade board doesn’t do transparencies. The Saturn version of the game is doing the same thing. It’s supposed to be like that, try playing it in an emulator or whatever. Or check this website: http://retrovania-vgjunk.blogspot.com/2 ... e.html?m=1 Those pics aren’t scaled correctly which makes the mesh even more perfectly visible. You’ll see this in Street Fighter Zero, Pocket Fighter, lots of 16-bit games and many CPS2 ones. Re: “component” ... Both RGB and YPbPr are “component”. YPbPr is just more efficient so it’s used for pro tapes and DVDs. In theory they offer as much information as the other but there is slightly more to playing back a YPbPr signal so results may vary. Neither are “composite” (because they aren’t built of multiple signals). In common parlance, for sure, people know component YPbPr as “component” and RGB as “RGB” but really they are both component and that may matter when changing settings in equipment. |
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| Author: | elahrairrah [ 28 Sep 2020, 21:03 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sega Saturn |
So here's what I'm talking about. Look to the life gauges in both shots (sorry I didn't take pics of the same screens and the blurriness, I started a different game with a different character and pausing the game darkens the screen, so I had to take these while the game was running): S-VIDEO SETTING  RGB SETTING  As you can see, the S-Video setting has no screendoor effect in the life gauge, but the RGB setting does. Weird how that turns out! Wonder if that will have the same effect through an actual RGB connection? |
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| Author: | signofzeta [ 28 Sep 2020, 21:06 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sega Saturn |
I think there is a “clean pause” feature for that game. Maybe not. I know Vampire Hunter had it. It’s possible that the normal “mesh” causes massive moiré in composite so they changed the graphics since that’s what most people use. They maybe then use the real mesh when RGB is in place and there won’t be any moiré. I can’t say for sure from those screenshots. |
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| Author: | elahrairrah [ 28 Sep 2020, 21:08 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sega Saturn |
signofzeta wrote: I think there is a “clean pause” feature for that game. Maybe not. I know Vampire Hunter had it. Yeah, Vampire Hunter/Night Warriors had it, but I've never seen one for Vampire Savior |
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| Author: | elahrairrah [ 28 Sep 2020, 21:25 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sega Saturn |
signofzeta wrote: ...no. I don’t know what you’re seeing on your end specifically but Vampire Savior has the “screen door effect” on the text boxes and such because the CPS2 arcade board doesn’t do transparencies. The Saturn version of the game is doing the same thing. It’s supposed to be like that, try playing it in an emulator or whatever. Or check this website: http://retrovania-vgjunk.blogspot.com/2 ... e.html?m=1 Those pics aren’t scaled correctly which makes the mesh even more perfectly visible. You’ll see this in Street Fighter Zero, Pocket Fighter, lots of 16-bit games and many CPS2 ones. That's good to know that the CPS2 wasn't capable of transparencies, but doesn't explain the results I saw. signofzeta wrote: Re: “component” ... Both RGB and YPbPr are “component”. YPbPr is just more efficient so it’s used for pro tapes and DVDs. In theory they offer as much information as the other but there is slightly more to playing back a YPbPr signal so results may vary. Neither are “composite” (because they aren’t built of multiple signals). In common parlance, for sure, people know component YPbPr as “component” and RGB as “RGB” but really they are both component and that may matter when changing settings in equipment. RGB and YPbPr are still different though. RGB is just that, Red, Green, Blue. YPbPr is a split of the video into a luminance channel and two color channels. I guess I should have specified when I was referring to "Component" was in terms of component video when using the red, green and blue RCA connectors as those only use YPbPr video (at least for consumer equipment.) |
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| Author: | signofzeta [ 28 Sep 2020, 21:56 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sega Saturn |
Like I said, it may have been that they thought the moiré from the mesh was too intense so for composite video they substituted something else. When you switch to RGB you get the original graphics. Would that make sense? YPbPr has all three colors and luma, but they all hide inside of each other. Full spectrum RGB is so wide it won’t fit on a tape so YPbPr was invented. It’s different, because you have to make a small circuit to play it back over RGB but it’s very very very similar. Unless there is an issue the difference should be impossible to detect by eye. I only mention this because nerd group think has caused a lot of people to think that you need full analog RGB to carry a signal when it fact it’s hilariously overkill for 16-bit computer graphics and YPbPr is just as high quality. If anyone can only use one or the other then they should know that that’s fine and that there is no need to spend $ converting one to another. |
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| Author: | signofzeta [ 28 Sep 2020, 22:32 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sega Saturn |
I did some Googlering. I found this from a forum, “Vampire Savior is noteworthy by the way. You can choose between S-Video and RGB output in a hidden menu. S-video uses normal dithered stuff. RGB also uses dithered patterns, but it switches which pixels are dithered every other frame!” So yeah, you can choose between arcade authentic transparencies or something new they did for the Saturn. I’ll have to look closely the next time I’m playing Saturn. |
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| Author: | therussian [ 11 Jan 2021, 12:43 ] | |||
| Post subject: | Re: Sega Saturn | |||
Guys can you advice me on the following. I purchased ones of those import adapters for my brother's Saturn ( see picture ). First it didn't start at all. After cleaning the pins with alcohol. It comes on but freezes at the loading screen and doesn't do anything at all. Is this somehow fixable ?
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| Author: | deadlegion [ 11 Jan 2021, 12:54 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sega Saturn |
therussian wrote: Guys can you advice me on the following. I purchased ones of those import adapters for my brother's Saturn ( see picture ). First it didn't start at all. After cleaning the pins with alcohol. It comes on but freezes at the loading screen and doesn't do anything at all. Is this somehow fixable ? Clean the pins with alcohol again. Go over them a few times. Then use a dry cotton tip (aka q-tip) to buff them dry and shiny. Try using it again. |
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| Author: | gypsy [ 11 Jan 2021, 14:39 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sega Saturn |
Are other carts working in the cart slot? Sometimes those get messed up. |
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| Author: | therussian [ 11 Jan 2021, 14:49 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sega Saturn |
@gypsy Will need to order one of those memory cartridges to try out. @deadlegion Thanks will give it another go. |
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| Author: | tasuke [ 11 Jan 2021, 15:03 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sega Saturn |
tasuke wrote: the SATURN was my first 32-bit console, the SONY PS1 coming a year or two later for me. i didn't amass many games for it, but, as a budding Anime fan at the time, i heard about WD's upcoming MKR game, and, even then, it was seen as likely the final U.S. SEGA SATURN release. i jumped all over it, of course, and it single-handedly made owning an overall failure of a games platform such as the SATURN well worth the trouble. 20+ years later, i still have my original babied, fully functional SATURN, a GAME SHARK to defeat the regional lockouts, as well as both the U.S. WORKING DESIGNS and JPN SEGA editions of MKR;  screencaps of same game on a 46" LCD HD display (2011 BEST BUY "INSIGNIA" SANYO OEM)  
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