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 Post subject: Re: Are CRT TV in demand in the Laser Disc community?
PostPosted: 22 Feb 2019, 15:14 
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As far as NES without Super Mario packed in?

Those were sold pretty prevalently. My NES from back then was one. It was called the "CORE" system. Just the console, no pack-in.

I didn't care for Super Mario Bros as I had played it like crazy on my friend's NES leading up to my getting one.

I was more interested in getting Castlevania I and II and Metroid, so I didn't need my mom shelling out another $20 for the console with Super Mario packed in. Just use that $20 for another game!
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 Post subject: Re: Are CRT TV in demand in the Laser Disc community?
PostPosted: 22 Feb 2019, 15:49 
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elahrairrah wrote:
rein-o wrote:
Well if you have space for a 300lbs CRT then you have space for a 19" upright or cocktail table with a Jamma connector and the 3 major buttons you would use.
Then just plug and unplug your boards.

Maybe so, but not for a 6-slot Neo Geo cabinet.

That thing was HUGE.

I had a metal Candy machine and had it shipped, freight was 250lbs.
a 25" monitor will be around 350-400 not too much more.
I remember being able to move my 25" machine around pretty easily.
APB was 19 inches and you MUST have 2 people as that seat was a real b**ch and made it out of balance.
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 Post subject: Re: Are CRT TV in demand in the Laser Disc community?
PostPosted: 22 Feb 2019, 18:41 
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elahrairrah wrote:
rein-o wrote:
Well if you have space for a 300lbs CRT then you have space for a 19" upright or cocktail table with a Jamma connector and the 3 major buttons you would use.
Then just plug and unplug your boards.

Maybe so, but not for a 6-slot Neo Geo cabinet.

That thing was HUGE.


Another problem with Jamma: They use left handed joysticks. I’d rather go rightie.

I was rightie before Jamma standards were made. Jamma was conspriring to shorten credit lengths, so they thought the easiest thing to do was to make joysticks left handed.

Remember, Arcade owners were the direct customers of game makers, not the people pumping in quarters.

That’s why Beeshu was a popular joystick maker with better arcade style sticks that were ambidextrous. It’s just with more buttons, and the rise of multi-player games, it was harder to ambidexterize both arcades and at home. Hence why the Genesis 3 button was their last 2-way stick. And no 2-way sticks were made ever since as a general public mass release.
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 Post subject: Re: Are CRT TV in demand in the Laser Disc community?
PostPosted: 22 Feb 2019, 21:34 
Jedi Master
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One can make the panel any configuration they want, you aren't stuck with joystick on the left but that is the correct way.

I used to make panels from Jamma kits all day long, not very hard, took about an hr or two.
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 Post subject: Re: Are CRT TV in demand in the Laser Disc community?
PostPosted: 22 Feb 2019, 22:05 
Jedi Knight
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That theory makes no sense. There is no plan to make games control worse by reversing the controls. Why would they use such high grade buttons and sticks just to reverse them? Why do so many American built pre-JAMMA machines have the stick on the left? Did they make the Famicom bad on purpose too? Even the 2600 has the button on the right.

Ridiculous...I can’t wait to see what references will be cited to prove this. I hope it’s based on at least a thread of truth. If they want more money they just make the game harder! You can litterally tell which games were released after all night arcades were banned. POW and Ikari Warriors for example. POW is stupid hard and Ikari is two players, both suck more money. There are all sorts of revenue increasing options in the DIP settings of almost every arcade game including pinball after the early 80s. They give the operator all the tools they need. Number of lives. Price of credits, price of continue, time, etc. Before that even mechanical slots had mechanical luck adjustments.

The stick isn’t “left handed”, it’s just on the left. The right side is full of buttons which have to be be located in some way by touch when playing the game whereas the stick is always in your hand and you use more of your arm and less of your individual fingers to use it. If anything it’s heavily right hand biased. In a game like Street Fighter II you need far more agility for your fingers/buttons than you do for the stick. Sure you need to do the circle motions and whatever but there are more buttons/combinations than there are on the joystick and the inputs need to be faster and more repetitive. If I had to wail on the fire button in an 80s arcade shooter for 18 minutes straight I sure would want that button on the right. My left hand is weaker because I am right handed.

The reason why AT keyboards and some typewriters before that put the keypad on the right, because when using one hand the right is usually preferred. Same reason why Doom used WASD instead of INKL or something like that.

And as has been said, having an arcade machine implies it’s customzed in some way unless it’s worth being dedicated like Ourun or Tron. If it’s a multi game thing you can make your Neo with four buttons on each side of both joysticks if you want and p**s off every single person who uses it except yourself. People put trackballs and steering wheels and guns on the same panel as a two player CPS2 machine. That’s the practicality of owning stuff like that. My favorite stick for my supergun is made from a cheap Harbor Freight toolbox.
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 Post subject: Re: Are CRT TV in demand in the Laser Disc community?
PostPosted: 23 Feb 2019, 00:42 
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Here a video that agrees with me:



Larry Bundy Jr’s Fact Hunt.

Actually pre-Jamma was a wild west. Some games one were one way, some were the other, and some were ambidextrous.

And I agree some games are better with joystick right, and other games are better button right, for both lefties and righties.

And most pre-Jamma games tried to guess whether the stick or the fire button was more important, and accommodate that to the right handed player

Then according to the video one arcade owner made them left handed and increased their incoming quarters with the same machines, and then it just organically spread.

Remember the home market is different than the arcade market: From the persepective of the game maker, In the home market, the player is the DIRECT customer, whereas in the arcade, they are the INDIRECT customer. The direct customer is the arcade machine owner. Game makers get pad by machines sold, not credits played.

And you’re wrong about the Atari controllers, the Official Atari 2600 joystick has a button on the left, making it a right handed joystick, But there were third parties (back then no licensing) which made "leftie adapters", and joysticks with a button on either side. On some computer games hitting "L" from certain companies put it in a "software based left hand mode." I believe Data Soft had that feature. And "Shift-L" for player 2 leftie mode.

Vectrex was the only pre-crash system maker that imposed a lefty control scheme. They intentionally went against Atari, because one of them was thinking like the military and the other was thinking contrary to the military. Atari and Odyssey 2 imposed a rightie scheme. Everyone else had an Ambidextrous setup.

I understand there are practicalities like the desire to standardize to make an easy rom swap, and a limit of joystick and button real estate.

Until you got to more exotic stuff with Alpha, and later, nothing in Street Fighter 2 required more than one button, except a Zangief clothesline, and Grand Master Challenge's Super Attack. Combos require "button dancing" but specials, especially dragon punches, required precise joystick movement. Assuming you type with 2 hands, then both hands should be comfortable enough pressing buttons. So might as well place the joystick in the "main" hand if both hands can finger type.

It’s sort of like the QWERTY keyboard. The origin of that is that the users were faster than the real early machines. So the QWERRTY keyboard was used to slow down the user to avoid machine jams.

People just accepted the QWERTY. Just like the left stick for most people. As one who used a lot of video games right handed, I accepted the NES joypad because it was symmetric using both index and middle fingers typing on a pad placed on the floor. But the NES Advantage was just a bridge too far.

When I rented a right-handed Beeshu Jazz joystick and played NES PAc-Mania, I said my scored was improved. So they bought the NES Advantage, thinking al joysticks were the same. They brought me to test it and I said the left haded stick was too awkward. But rapid-fire and slow-mo were not shown off well with the demo game of Super Mario Bros.

The Taito Vaus controller was ambidextrous. So was the Zapper. The Power Glove was RIGHT handed. So the industry was young. There were no standards that were too hardened ins tone yet.

That’s why Beeshu made ambidextrous joysticks. They were advertised as legal performance enhancements. The Beeshu sticks had the US Video Game Team endorsement. They guaranteed higher scores or your money back.
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 Post subject: Re: Are CRT TV in demand in the Laser Disc community?
PostPosted: 23 Feb 2019, 00:57 
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signofzeta wrote:
That theory makes no sense.


It's tripletopper.
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 Post subject: Re: Are CRT TV in demand in the Laser Disc community?
PostPosted: 23 Feb 2019, 01:42 
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I remember going to the arcade in Times Square and watching a guy do Bison or Blanka with one hand.
I could also do a 4 hit combo with Ken on dash with the stick on the left, if you can't do that then it won't matter which side the stick is on.
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 Post subject: Re: Are CRT TV in demand in the Laser Disc community?
PostPosted: 23 Feb 2019, 01:49 
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I had a friend who was really good and playing both sides of Second Impact. He’d parry his own stuff. You don’t learn this from the home version, only the PCB which has no practice mode so you get resourceful. :)

I was in fact wrong about the 2600 stick. It been a long time....I stand by everything else, I don’t have time for the video.

I brought up WASD, the keyboard based d-pad in Wolfenstein, not QWERTY.

I think you probabky don’t know as much about street fighter as I do, not to be insulting, just clear. The action needed by your right hand, even in World Warrior, is more varied and frenic and requiring of precision. The actual circular motions with the joystick are something I mastered decades ago at this point. I fluff a dragon punch motion maybe 1/1000 times and I’m not even good. That’s not supposed to even be difficult, it’s suppsed to be automatic after a certain still level. Linked combos, redizzies, etc require much more precision and even the best players struggle with perfecting that. Every decent combo in a later game line KOF98 requires two basics for every special and working the buttons like MAD.
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 Post subject: Re: Are CRT TV in demand in the Laser Disc community?
PostPosted: 23 Feb 2019, 01:53 
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Awhile ago I was really good at KOF 98 but I am super out of practice now.
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 Post subject: Re: Are CRT TV in demand in the Laser Disc community?
PostPosted: 23 Feb 2019, 02:51 
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Well I can tell you from experience and ownership that Joysticks started out in the center with buttons on left and right due to single player games.
Then people figured the best configuration for multiple player games were stick left and that's pretty much it.

I remember making a Speed Rumbler cocktail and put the center stick and buttons on left and right as the instructions said but I could have
made it anyway I wanted to.
That was a cool game, I guess I should get back into the business after thinking about arcades again :think:
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 Post subject: Re: Are CRT TV in demand in the Laser Disc community?
PostPosted: 23 Feb 2019, 03:27 
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About Street FIgther 2, the combo with all basic moves is not that much damaging. It won’t get blocked once your first hit lands but that’s about it. Special moves are very powerful. They were toned down from Street Fighter 1, where that was the only way you had a chance to beat CPU opponents, but they were way more damaging than regulars.

Over time, they aded new button heavy features, like PPP, KKK, QP+QK throws, and "engineered combos". Originally combos were a side effect of the SFII engine. They were not intended, but when the play-testers discovered them, they sold the secrets in a hint book once it came home. Ironically, Sega’s similar fight game Eternal Champions, I believe was designed so that every hit (except for certain auto-combos) were isolated hits. In theory, after giving up hit 1, the secodn hit ina barrage was always blockable. Hence why most games ended in a time-limit draw.

With either a pad or a generic joystick X left handed vs the same generic joystick right handed, the results were the same, I could either be accurate or quick, but not both. If I had to do a dragon punch quickly, there’s a greater than 50% chance I’d miss with a pad or a left handed joystick. If I intentionally thought my way through a dragon punch, it might work against a CPU but a human opponent can see it a mile away and block it. Right handed gives me the combined accurate and quick motion.

In Street Fighter 2 New Challengers, I’ve gone from always losing to always winning. if you want to read my story of not only me but our other common friends beating a gamer that later became famous for appearing on 2 Cable TV all-around tournaments, all the time with a right handed joystick, but not a left handed stick sometimes, read that story at http://www.56ok.org/Ambidextrous/index.htm

That person we all beat denied it happened publicly when i first published it, but since then I talked to him, and now I make it clear that that was one moment in time, with particular Street Figther game, with him on a pad. I make the joke on how he remembered that humiliation and bought joysticks for Street Fighter for Xbox and beyond, because if I beat went out of my way to beat him, others would too, so he bought an off the shelf fight stick. He was specifically trounced when facing all of us when we were right handed. If he took the lesson all the way,

Street Fighter 2 was the most "joystick heavy" version of the game. As future iterations went on, they made it more button heavy, because that was the way to go, and the only place they had left to go. With these over-engineered combos, and more button heavy mechanics, plus the fact the’s using a fight stick now, he’s back on top, but that time was sweet.

Then I fooled around with a professional Street Fighter IV joystick for the 360. I was able to, in a random vs random match, pull off Rose Soul Throws by doing the dragon punch motion, and it was a left handed joystick. As it turns out, if you have a quality joystick, and an easy-to-tactilely feel diagonals vs cardinals, with a square gate stick, then handedness matters less.

In SSF4, I can defeat Seth one credit vs level 4 CPUs with E Honda with a left handed stick, because less joystick gymnastics is needed, and more rapid tapping helps.

Over time they engineered combos and made combos easier, and made specials weaker compared to basics. So they adopted the game to the right handed

So I asked what kind of joystick was in that particular model, and I got the model number, with a diamond/square switcher gate (Diamond for 4 way games). I haven't tired it yet, but I’m 1-2 months away form getting it working.

But being ambidextrous is cool for two reasons, one is you can promise better scores. That’s because there are some games are better right stick and other games are better left stick, regardless of whether you’re right or left handed. Second is it’s like getting 2 sticks in one.

That’s a way better selling point than most of these other joysticks. They sell pretty pictures, mine gets better scores.
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 Post subject: Re: Are CRT TV in demand in the Laser Disc community?
PostPosted: 23 Feb 2019, 03:37 
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rein-o wrote:
Well I can tell you from experience and ownership that Joysticks started out in the center with buttons on left and right due to single player games.
Then people figured the best configuration for multiple player games were stick left and that's pretty much it.

I remember making a Speed Rumbler cocktail and put the center stick and buttons on left and right as the instructions said but I could have
made it anyway I wanted to.
That was a cool game, I guess I should get back into the business after thinking about arcades again :think:


Look at the above linked video from Fact Hunt/Larry Bundy Jr.. Wizard of Wor had stick on the right AND 2 players.

Another strange fact of that game was that player 1 was on the right.

Some games were right stick, others were left, still others were ambidextrous. In the really old days, when Atari had sbizzare contorl schemes by today’s standards, with paddles and trackballs, Atari made whatever the heck they wanted. Later single player games were ambidextrous. Irem’s(?) Ikari Warriors is one of the few rare 2 player ambidextrous games. Sega’s Quartet had 4 players with buttons below the joystick, saving real estate and making it ambidextrous. The only problem is the "main button" didn’t shift with the hand, like "press desired fire button to start" so right handers will press the right button with the left index finger and left handers will press the left button with the right index finger.
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 Post subject: Re: Are CRT TV in demand in the Laser Disc community?
PostPosted: 23 Feb 2019, 03:59 
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signofzeta wrote:
I brought up WASD, the keyboard based d-pad in Wolfenstein, not QWERTY.

I brought up QWERTY aout the origin of why the QWERTY keyboard is laid out as it is and not ABCDEFG. Even with the huint and peck method used in very early typewriters, before touch typing was taught, there were too many jams because keys were easy to find. QWERTY keyboards were invented becuase they advertised less repair time and costs, and the way they had less repair time and costs was artificially slowing down the user.

I’m suggesting that the pre-1984 origins of the left handed joystick was because Arcade Owners were the direct customers, and credits lasted shorter with left handed sticks, and shorter credits means more potential quarters, which was good for the arcade machine owner.

And home systems followed suit because that’s how it’s done even tough they used pads instead of sticks.

And, like I said about 3D and surround sound, just because it’s the best way to do it publicly and communally, doesn’t mean it’s the best way to do it privately.

Sounds systems in theaters are better with communal speakers. A surround system for one is best as surround encoded headphones. In between, you make the call.

3D in theaters is better communally as polarized. 3D individually is better as a shutter system, hence why Sega went with that system. In between, you make the call.

Likewise a communal joystick owned by a person who is not the primary player but a businessman, left stick is better. A personal joystick for you is built for your better performance. (That’s why you buy a joystick, for your better performance, right?) Where you go from here... that’s your call.

But then again, Jamma started when one player games were bigger. Now that multi-player games arcade games are bigger, with quite a few being competitive, the vs CPU mode is secondary. Which means guaranteed losers, and more customers per hour, because big money is made when there’s a party.
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 Post subject: Re: Are CRT TV in demand in the Laser Disc community?
PostPosted: 23 Feb 2019, 04:00 
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I think you need to go look up some combo videos or FAQs or something. It’s not a matter of basics vs specials, you need both for most good combos.

Jump in, jumping Fierce, crouching fierce, fireball. A super popular combo in World Warrior, easy too really because the jumping fierce is canceled by hitting the ground, croutching fierce cancels into fireball. Three attacks, one of which is a special.

There is way harder stuff, such as in this Guile redizzy demo: https://youtu.be/8Qtv2XLGRV8

Many of these combos use a link, which is just two moves that combo despite not cancelling, such as Sonic Boom into forward fierce, which requires timing precise to a frame or two. You will find way more basics than specials in these combos.
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 Post subject: Re: Are CRT TV in demand in the Laser Disc community?
PostPosted: 23 Feb 2019, 04:48 
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signofzeta wrote:
I think you need to go look up some combo videos or FAQs or something. It’s not a matter of basics vs specials, you need both for most good combos.

Jump in, jumping Fierce, crouching fierce, fireball. A super popular combo in World Warrior, easy too really because the jumping fierce is canceled by hitting the ground, croutching fierce cancels into fireball. Three attacks, one of which is a special.

There is way harder stuff, such as in this Guile redizzy demo: https://youtu.be/8Qtv2XLGRV8

Many of these combos use a link, which is just two moves that combo despite not cancelling, such as Sonic Boom into forward fierce, which requires timing precise to a frame or two. You will find way more basics than specials in these combos.


I agree. The most devastating combos start with a basic hit or 2 (or more) and then bridge to a special. That’s where the big combos are made. but that’s because they incorporate a special. The special move is the ice cream, but the basics are the toppings on the sundae. Now basics and specials are closer to even and has more emphasis on combos and less on isolated specials, so that isolated hits, even specials, will always lose to someone who either knows or can quickly find combos.

Also most tournaments are designed to put your best character forward, so 60% of the emphasis is on learning one character, and 40% is on learning all the other characters enough to know how to defeat them with your character. So if you’re a Ryu guy, you learn Ryu, and all other guys in relationship to Ryu. But it’s not finding the best all-around street fighter player, it’s about finding the best single-character master. So you don’t have to store any thoughts on a Chun Li vs Blanka matchup if you’re always Ryu, unless you’re studying a particular high profile opponent you might be facing, the same way the new guys have been winning the World Series of Poker during the Poker boom of 2005-2015, because all the "regulars" have to face specific "anti-them strategies" but a lower profile player won’t have a well-known history, therefore stealth is a weapon for them.

Here’s how we’re going to do fighting games on Jack of All games: Half the time, you’re home and half the time, you’re road, Road person selects side, and home person gets to choose his character after home chooses theirs. And one other important rule, throughout the round robin round, once you win with one character, you can’t win with them again. So if a 5 player setup plays 2 home games and 2 road games vs each of the 4 opponents, you’ve got to win with at least 10 characters, (you get 16 chances to win) That way one or two bad matches won’t throw you, but you must get first in your group to advance.

Jack of All games will have 5 competitors, so that’s easy. Later, if it’s 20 or 25, there’s a preliminary round robin, and a final round robin (and with 20, 4 preliminary winners, a wild card for the fifth spot between 2nd places and one third place with a sub-wild card single elimination.)
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 Post subject: Re: Are CRT TV in demand in the Laser Disc community?
PostPosted: 23 Feb 2019, 05:07 
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All I know is that I'll let you pick ANY character and I'll win in SFII or any SF game you chose.
And you can chose which side I play.
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 Post subject: Re: Are CRT TV in demand in the Laser Disc community?
PostPosted: 23 Feb 2019, 06:46 
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rein-o wrote:
All I know is that I'll let you pick ANY character and I'll win in SFII or any SF game you chose.
And you can chose which side I play.


Tell you what, if this a friendly invitaition to play, I have Street fighter IV and Ultra SF IV on either a real 360 or an ONe via 360 emulator, as well as Street Fighter 30th on Xbox One. I also have Ultra Street Fighter 2 FInal Challengers for Switch. I have no PS4. So either Xbox One, 360, or Switch is good.

If this is an invitation to game-friend, can someone tell me whether we should PM our gamertags or if it’s okay to be open about our gamer ids on posts? What is te policy on posting gamer ids? A mod might answer that one. I don’t want to break rules.

I’ll have a better chance if we play a game to 11 2-out-of-3 wins, win by 2, where we either choose characters and each win must come from a separate character, or random vs random. But to appeal to you, we can play my best vs your best as a separate matchup, or whatever way you’re best at.

I got my right handed joystick for the Xbox One and Switch. I got no excuses, if you win by a big margin, you’re better than me.

Keep in mind I have only a 1.5 Mb/s inbound, 400 k outbound connection. I’ve never had complaints about Street fighter with this connection. Most fo the time, my old cellular connection of 500 kb/s in 150 kb/s out only had a couple dropouts. I’m just warning you about my bad bandwidth. But by August of this year, we’ll upgrade to Fiber Optic 100 Mb/s in 100 Mb/s out with even lower ping.

I don’t know who gets the advantage with my bad connection.
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 Post subject: Re: Are CRT TV in demand in the Laser Disc community?
PostPosted: 23 Feb 2019, 15:27 
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I don't play ports, they are garbage.
Only arcade machines.

But yes it is friendly.
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 Post subject: Re: Are CRT TV in demand in the Laser Disc community?
PostPosted: 23 Feb 2019, 21:00 
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rein-o wrote:
I don't play ports, they are garbage.
Only arcade machines.

But yes it is friendly.


Unfortunately, for us to play a true arcade game...

a) I’d have to come to your house, which I’m not sure I want to or you want me to either.

b) and that’s assuming we’re geographically close. I do not want to take a 5 day road trip, or a trans-continental flight just to play an arcade game with a barely-known web friend , knowing that you’d have the advantage because I can’t use my right handed stick on an arcade machine, when a web visit is far easier, and not that bad, even considering my bad internet.

I asked for a friendly match, not a cutthroat high-stakes tournament. Ports are close enough where most tournaments are done on Home versions, mainly so people can bring their own joysticks.

I will not rub it in your face if I win. Hopefully it will be reciprocated. I just rub it in my friend’s face because, a) we’re offline friends, b) 90% of games he dominates me, so I’d remember when I so dominated him. The fact I dominated him big time was bad enough, and c) in his cockiness, he said there’s no way the right joystick can make someone suddenly good, i gave it to our common friends that were there. Everyone beat him bad every time when he was on a pad and they were on right stick. With the left hand stick some people beat him sometimes but with the right stick every one beat him every time, and before, he dominated everyone in our group except possibly one other person was 2:1 odds for him. For him to go from hero to zero, al because of a right handed stick is very telling.

And makes a great sales pitch for an ambidextrous joystick.

And he later became a famous Cable TV all-around video game champion, which gives the claim WAY MORE GRAVITAS.
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