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 Post subject: Lupin III: Castle of Cagliostro LD Demo Tape Mystery
PostPosted: 04 Mar 2021, 00:38 
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Hey all! Newcomer to the boards here.

I recently encountered something strange for sale, and though I researched this item enough to purchase it out of curiosity, I’m eager to learn more. Hopefully someone here can help me? Also, I apologize in advance if I posted to the wrong section, I wasn’t quite sure where to put this post.

Long story incoming.
https://www.etsy.com/listing/806331352/vintage-lupin-the-third-demo-vhs-tape?show_sold_out_detail=1&ref=nla_listing_details

I was browsing some Etsy estate sale shops yesterday and came across this weird Lupin III: Castle of Cagliostro tape, which says that it’s a “Laser disk demo tape.” The link is up above, and you can still check out the item details/pictures there. As you can see, it looks pretty old, and the TDK HS tape it’s on is from the 90’s, according to an article I read. Naturally I was suspicious of the janky quality of the cover, but when I saw the odd, printed label on the tape itself (and not a handwritten one), and the wording, I got really intrigued. Clearly, I thought it wasn’t just some duplicate of a library copy of the original film. Also, it doesn’t appear to be anything meant for the retail market. It says it’s subtitled, which is doubly odd since my google searches indicated that this movie was never released on LD with subtitles.

Given that the case has the Japanese cover art with English titles tacked on, I limited my search to LD releases in Japan and the US. None of the 3 Japanese LDs I found have subs, and the 1 US LD release is specifically English dub only, no Japanese audio, but the Japanese and English scripts are included; not sure what that means, but you can take a look at the page here: http://www.nausicaa.net/miyazaki/video/lupin/#e_cagliostro_ld

I did some further research, which led me to this listing on LDDb: Castle of Cagliostro (1979) [ID2970SE] (URL edited, please use the preformatted URLs)
It lists a planned US LD release for the film, published by Image Entertainment—specifically, the Jap. dub with Eng. subs—but it was cancelled and never came into production.

So then I contacted the seller of the tape, who has an extremely reputable and long-standing storefront, with mostly EX condition music and movie collectables, racing ephemera, other misc. high quality goods. She said that she purchased it at a local (Atlanta, GA) estate sale, and that she doesn’t typically ever sell VHS tapes but thought this one looked very unique. She hadn’t tested it, since she doesn’t own a VCR, but offered a full refund/return if it didn’t work, so I thought I didn’t have much to lose if I jumped on it.

My only conclusion is that this tape was used in either the production of the Eng. dub LD, or the cancelled Eng. sub LD, but I could be completely wrong. Given that LD is a pretty esoteric topic by today’s standards, and its heyday was before my time, I honestly don’t know how LDs were produced/published. So I could be completely off base here. I’m more of a movie/gaming nerd, but I love animation, especially Studio Ghibli, so given that this was so strange and unique, and that my research was lining up, I gave this tape a shot. Which brings me to my question.

What the heck did I buy?? :?


Last edited by admin on 04 Mar 2021, 07:57, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Lupin III: Castle of Cagliostro LD Demo Tape Mystery
PostPosted: 04 Mar 2021, 01:13 
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Looks like a tape that would have been recorded and sold at comic or toy conventions.
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 Post subject: Re: Lupin III: Castle of Cagliostro LD Demo Tape Mystery
PostPosted: 04 Mar 2021, 01:26 
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Would places like movie retailers buy it to play in their stores, maybe?

EDIT: when I get it in the mail I'll be sure to post about what's on it.
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 Post subject: Re: Lupin III: Castle of Cagliostro LD Demo Tape Mystery
PostPosted: 04 Mar 2021, 08:08 
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oracle_89 wrote:
Would places like movie retailers buy it to play in their stores, maybe?


More like a fansub done either from the Japanese VHS or LD, using an Amiga or Atari with a genlock to add subtitles layer and record them on VHS.

Typically, for French Anime conventions in the 90's, I would convert a LD + subtitles to S-VHS and later make VHS copies from the S-VHS "master".
We only did this for titles not commercially available in Europe.

The bad xerox'ed cover screams "home-made".

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 Post subject: Re: Lupin III: Castle of Cagliostro LD Demo Tape Mystery
PostPosted: 04 Mar 2021, 08:23 
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Rein-O and Admin are correct. This is a fansub that has been repackaged by a bootlegger con slug, probably 1989-1994. I wouldn’t be surprised if when played it contained a message from the fansub group that said something to the effect of “never pay for this”.

You have garbage, sorry. :) But I guess even this is a sort of relic of the past and interesting in its own way now that there aren’t 20 table fulls of these things at Detroit/Chicago Comic Con, etc. Actual anime cons rarely tolerated these things but the mainstream comic cons did and they sold like crazy.
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 Post subject: Re: Lupin III: Castle of Cagliostro LD Demo Tape Mystery
PostPosted: 04 Mar 2021, 16:32 
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signofzeta wrote:
con slug


LOVE IT.

I think I only ever had 2 "con slug" tapes, they were straight rips off the LDs with no subs, I think I tried to buy outlanders but it was
such a daisy chained boot that it wouldn't play so I exchanged it.

One would have been Dirty Pair Eden Project but that's it as I remember buying the LD a few years later.

about a year or so later my dad bought us an LD player so I never did tapes again.
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 Post subject: Re: Lupin III: Castle of Cagliostro LD Demo Tape Mystery
PostPosted: 04 Mar 2021, 23:31 
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Wowie, thanks for all the info. :thumbup: Guess I'll stick to what I know next time.
Quote:
You have garbage, sorry. :)

Thankfully I can return it lol. I'll be sure to let the seller know what the heck she had, so she won't think it's something of value. I am curious to see what's on the tape before I ship it back tho...
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 Post subject: Re: Lupin III: Castle of Cagliostro LD Demo Tape Mystery
PostPosted: 06 Mar 2021, 00:28 
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Fansubers would never poach titles already licensed. However Cagliostro was handled by Streamline back then and Streamline had a dub only policy in the VHS days so their stuff was considered fair game for fansubbers. Fansubbers would produce “masters” on VHS/SVHS sourced from LD usually. The master went to a distributor group to handle getting large amounts of tapes out to people for the cost of blanks. Often the subtitle files were made public so anyone who also had the LD and the right hardware could make completely different “masters” and beyond that distributors.

Until the licensed subtitled tape came out this was considered a public service. Usually the fansub group would identify themselves in the credits. That’s what you have....except it’s a for profit bootleg version made by a guy just to sell at comic cons so when they say “if you paid for this you were robbed” it doesn’t apply to you and your purchase of it, it applies to the guy who paid $25 for it in 1991. If I were you I’d just keep it.
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 Post subject: Re: Lupin III: Castle of Cagliostro LD Demo Tape Mystery
PostPosted: 06 Mar 2021, 01:59 
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signofzeta wrote:
Until the licensed subtitled tape came out this was considered a public service. Usually the fansub group would identify themselves in the credits. That’s what you have....except it’s a for profit bootleg version made by a guy just to sell at comic cons so when they say “if you paid for this you were robbed” it doesn’t apply to you and your purchase of it, it applies to the guy who paid $25 for it in 1991. If I were you I’d just keep it.

I totally understand where you're coming from, and I wouldn't mind hanging on to it at all for the sake of preservation, since it's pretty cool to have an example of how dedicated people were to getting things fansubbed/distributed pre-internet. And also I just love Castle of Cagliostro in any format. However, I'm not sure it's worth what I paid . . . if it was just $25 like you said, I'd shrug it off and add it to the shelf. I know I probably should've haggled on the price, but I went ahead and caved with the $60 tag since I figured I could return it if it was a bust. I'm a full-time student at the moment, and I think maybe I'd get more enjoyment out of other things for that amount.

Unless you think it's worth that much? I'm not really familiar with any comparables.
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 Post subject: Re: Lupin III: Castle of Cagliostro LD Demo Tape Mystery
PostPosted: 06 Mar 2021, 16:42 
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Oh geeze, yeah, $60 is a terrible price. It’s worth like $5 max.

To be clear, what’s on the tape is a fansub but this particular tape was not, it is a copy of a fansub that someone (not in any fan group) made for $4 and then charged someone else $25. Actual fansubs will almost never have any kind of fake cover at all unless someone made their own at some point. Not only is it profit on a non-profit cause it’s more profit than the official release. So it is a reminder of another time but really it’s reminds me more of scumbag opportunism than fan altruism. Paying $60 for a tape that wasn’t worth $5 is a bit off, I guess I would get the money back but it sure seems like a pointless waste of time and effort to twice ship a tape that I would just throw in the garbage if I had it.

If you play it it would be nice to know what the fansub group was that subtitled it. This was one of the earliest titles to be fansubbed so it could have come any number of groups.
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 Post subject: Re: Lupin III: Castle of Cagliostro LD Demo Tape Mystery
PostPosted: 08 Mar 2021, 03:32 
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signofzeta wrote:
To be clear, what’s on the tape is a fansub but this particular tape was not, it is a copy of a fansub that someone (not in any fan group) made for $4 and then charged someone else $25. Actual fansubs will almost never have any kind of fake cover at all unless someone made their own at some point. Not only is it profit on a non-profit cause it’s more profit than the official release. So it is a reminder of another time but really it’s reminds me more of scumbag opportunism than fan altruism.


Oh okay, that's actually really helpful. Thanks for clarifying.

Also, I got the tape in the mail and tested it today, and it was super worn out, barely watchable really. Lots of blurryness/lines on the screen--it's worse off than any of the old tapes I have. I didn't have time to skim through the whole thing, been pretty busy the past couple days, but it said "Side A" upon first playing it. I assume that's because the LD it came from was the kind you flip halfway thru? Either way, I'll check and see if there's a name for the fansub group that made it tomorrow, since I'll have some more time then. I arranged a full return/refund with the seller so I'm gonna ship it off soon after that.
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 Post subject: Re: Lupin III: Castle of Cagliostro LD Demo Tape Mystery
PostPosted: 08 Mar 2021, 06:00 
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Yeah, any movie as long as Cagliostro would be on at least two sides. Players that auto flip will state what side they think they are playing. Not the neatest editing, I guess.
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 Post subject: Re: Lupin III: Castle of Cagliostro LD Demo Tape Mystery
PostPosted: 09 Mar 2021, 07:06 
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Sorry to hi-Jack,
I own: Lupin the 3rd: Cagliostro no Shirou (Castle of Cagliostro) (1979) [TLL 2023]
Its no good to me, cant read Jap :lol:
If someone wants to pay shipping from KiwiLand that can understand Jap and maybe price of a beer PM me.. :?
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 Post subject: Re: Lupin III: Castle of Cagliostro LD Demo Tape Mystery
PostPosted: 09 Mar 2021, 08:09 
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Might have simply been a direct LD-to-VHS of the English dub?

Lupin the 3rd: Cagliostro no Shirou (Castle of Cagliostro) (1979) [TLL 2473]

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 Post subject: Re: Lupin III: Castle of Cagliostro LD Demo Tape Mystery
PostPosted: 09 Mar 2021, 14:54 
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yeah, they weren't that sophisticated in a place like NYC to have subs, all the tapes I ever saw were just direct bootlegs from the LD or possibly VHS

I think I was setup next to one once and they were getting their friends to buy tapes off other dealers who had films they didn't so they could
pirate them and sell them off at the next show.
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 Post subject: Re: Lupin III: Castle of Cagliostro LD Demo Tape Mystery
PostPosted: 09 Mar 2021, 16:54 
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admin wrote:
Might have simply been a direct LD-to-VHS of the English dub?

Lupin the 3rd: Cagliostro no Shirou (Castle of Cagliostro) (1979) [TLL 2473]

Julien


There would be no point in selling pirate copies of Streamline dubs for the same or more than an original copy...and Macek underpriced bootleggers, amazingly. I’m %99.9 sure this is a bootleggers copy of a fansub. These were very popular in my area in the late 80s/early 90s. They would write nonsense on there like “Promo” or “Demo” to make it seem like it was less pirate somehow. There are several anime I saw for the first time on tapes like these with their weird photocopied covers, my friends loved them. I never bought one (the stuff is free and better from actual fansubbers...) so I don’t have any myself.

The bootleggers would distribute these things and when a licensed version became available they would pull it. They sold mostly Dragon Ball Z, Gundam, and Ghibli since those were by far the most popular unlicensed shows with fans. So in like 1990 they would have taken Bubblegum Crisis vol 1 out of circulation but Vol 7 or Crash would still be fair game because those weren’t out yet. By 1993 there was no BGC.

Sometimes they would have raw stuff but they tried to avoid it. They wouldn’t sell anything there was a legit US version of since other dealers in the same room would have standing to call the cops on them. Since Streamline had a dub-only policy the sub version of Cagliostro would have stayed on the bootleggers table through this entire era. I don’t remember what the latest date was I remember seeing these huge tables of VHS, maybe 1997? Eventually there were so many licensed titles out there and it became more commonly understood that this was all high margin pirate crap that the bootleggers fell out of style.

If we can know what’s on the tape it will clear up these things.
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 Post subject: Re: Lupin III: Castle of Cagliostro LD Demo Tape Mystery
PostPosted: 11 Mar 2021, 22:16 
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So I'm finally back, lol. Irl stuff got in the way.

Anyways, right after I made my last post the seller messaged me and said I didn't have to send it back, and she gave me a refund, no questions asked. So all's well there :thumbup:

And I watched most of the tape itself today, not a bad fansub, actually. I've seen some weird ones on other Japanese films in the past, but this one seemed pretty good, only a few places where it seemed like a somewhat literal translation. Unfortunately, no trace of the group that did it. There was no name or anything at the end, just the Japanese credits. Boo!

On another note, this sub made me realize that the princess calls Lupin "uncle" quite a lot in the original Japanese. It doesn't seem like she has crush on him at all in this version, and the dialogue makes their interactions feel like a sweet brother/sister type relationship. So I wonder what made the producers of the English dub think that was necessary to add? Seems a little weird to me, and a little creepy. :think:
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 Post subject: Re: Lupin III: Castle of Cagliostro LD Demo Tape Mystery
PostPosted: 12 Mar 2021, 01:14 
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IMO, the Streamline dub (1992, "You should have worn an asbestos suit") nails this relationship.

Are you used to watching the 2000 dub? I don't think I've ever sat all the way through that one. I remember the cops used mild profanity when they are crashing into each other in the opening casino scene. It wouldn't surprise me if they sauced it up a bit.

Keep in mind, this is a 40 year old movie from a country that can be pretty backward when it comes to sex stuff so it has to be taken in the context of the time. Its still %100 more normal than most anime, especially now.

Too bad about there being no fingerprints on this. I wonder if the bootlegger made it himself and just edited all the names out of the SSA file.
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 Post subject: Re: Lupin III: Castle of Cagliostro LD Demo Tape Mystery
PostPosted: 14 Mar 2021, 00:28 
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Ah, okay. I've always heard there were multiple dubs for this movie, but so far I'm only familiar with the one that's on Netflix, which isn't the one with David Hayter as Lupin. Not sure of which dub I watched by name. However, the one you referenced as the 2000 dub rings a bell, so that's probably it. Need to pick up the bluray sometime soon--this actually is the only movie I miss after dropping Netflix.

signofzeta wrote:
Too bad about there being no fingerprints on this. I wonder if the bootlegger made it himself and just edited all the names out of the SSA file.

Sounds plausible. Or maybe could the bootlegger have edited out the name of the fansub group to prevent people snitching on him? I would imagine the group would've had some beef if they found out he was selling their work.
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