It is currently 28 Mar 2024, 15:08




 Page 1 of 1 [ 19 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Which is Better, CLV or CAV?
PostPosted: 06 Sep 2015, 01:37 
Honest fan
Honest fan
User avatar

Joined: 17 Apr 2015, 20:34
Posts: 118
Location: United States
Has thanked: 8 times
Been thanked: 7 times
On many laserdisc's of the same title, one LD will be a CAV and the other will be a CLV.
I've read and done my research on both types, but I can't decide which of the two would be a better choice.
I want to say CLV would be better due to the longer playback but I would like to get a second opinion.
_________________
Rare LD Footage That Have Never Been Digitally Released
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Which is Better, CLV or CAV?
PostPosted: 06 Sep 2015, 08:14 
Hardcore fan
Hardcore fan
User avatar

Joined: 23 Sep 2003, 18:14
Posts: 1391
Location: United States
Has thanked: 39 times
Been thanked: 21 times
CAV has somewhat better performance in a technical sense, owing to the increased "headroom" above the carrier frequency in the outer portion of the disc. This results in less distortion & noise with respect to the chrominance signal, & less intermodulation between the audio & video carriers. It also allows for perfect single-frame play modes, which are otherwise only offered by the Pioneer LD-V8000.
Whether you value those characteristics more than the extra half-hour per side of play time is a personal choice, but it is a fact that many discs which exist in both CAV & CLV releases have features on the Standard Play version which are not on the Extended Play version.
_________________
MUSE decoder information and user guides
LD player connexion guide
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Which is Better, CLV or CAV?
PostPosted: 06 Sep 2015, 23:54 
Honest fan
Honest fan
User avatar

Joined: 17 Apr 2015, 20:34
Posts: 118
Location: United States
Has thanked: 8 times
Been thanked: 7 times
Quote:
CAV has somewhat better performance in a technical sense, owing to the increased "headroom" above the carrier frequency in the outer portion of the disc. This results in less distortion & noise with respect to the chrominance signal, & less intermodulation between the audio & video carriers. It also allows for perfect single-frame play modes

Those are all definite features that I look for in LD performance. The additional 30 min playback in a CLV means nothing now if the other has much better quality. It's just unfortunate that there aren't that many of them out there.
_________________
Rare LD Footage That Have Never Been Digitally Released
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Which is Better, CLV or CAV?
PostPosted: 07 Sep 2015, 00:05 
Serious fan
Serious fan
User avatar

Joined: 25 Apr 2013, 04:14
Posts: 168
Location: United States
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 1 time
CAV sets also typically take up more space than CLV, though the amount of space varies; sometimes it's just an extra disc, sometimes it's a huge box.
_________________
DVL-909, displaying on a Bravia KDL-32L4000. Pioneer CLD-S104 for backup.
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Which is Better, CLV or CAV?
PostPosted: 07 Sep 2015, 01:01 
Young Padawan
Young Padawan
User avatar

Joined: 16 May 2009, 18:05
Posts: 3569
Location: California, USA
Has thanked: 26 times
Been thanked: 314 times
In my case, clv is the choice since my main player is a single side only. Clv discs catch cav performance after a few minutes on each side, after 10 mins or so, it is indistinguishable from cav. Crosstalk can be of issue on some out of adjustment player. If you are after absolute best playback and don't mind 30 mins a side, cav is better.
_________________
Coming Soon
Derman Labs
Anything Of Substance
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Which is Better, CLV or CAV?
PostPosted: 25 Aug 2020, 21:01 
Honest fan
Honest fan
User avatar

Joined: 26 Feb 2020, 21:43
Posts: 79
Location: United States
Has thanked: 14 times
Been thanked: 26 times
I am trying to wrap my head around this. So:

CAV: better performance/picture, less convenience (shorter disc sides)

CLV: More generally used format, longer sides, slightly lower performance/picture quality.
_________________
Elite CLD-59, DVL-909, CLD-D701, CLD-S201, CLD-990, Yamaha Demodulator. 80's/90's Action flicks.
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Which is Better, CLV or CAV?
PostPosted: 25 Aug 2020, 22:02 
Jedi Knight
Jedi Knight
User avatar

Joined: 14 Jan 2010, 09:44
Posts: 5969
Location: Ann Arbor
Has thanked: 1273 times
Been thanked: 1089 times
The “better” performance of CAV isn’t really a thing. The only real difference is that one holds twice as much and one offers trick play. Once digital field memory became a thing CLV discs also allowed trick play (at reduced quality.

Basically, once dual side players came about CAV nearly died except for special editions and half hour programs because even I don’t use it that much and I easily use it more than %99 of LD owners.

If your player is out of alignment you may see a significant performance decrease in CLV discs due to the crosstalk that doesn’t show up the same way on CAV discs but that’s a situation where your player needs repair.

If someone has a large collection of Criterions they could easily A/B a bunch of different movies in both formats that were made from the same master and give us their opinion on this. I’d like to see that.
_________________
All about LD care, inner sleeves, shrink wrap, etc.

https://youtu.be/b3O-vHpHRpM
Online
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Which is Better, CLV or CAV?
PostPosted: 25 Aug 2020, 23:49 
Jedi Candidate
Jedi Candidate
User avatar

Joined: 02 Apr 2006, 21:20
Posts: 2125
Location: United States
Has thanked: 75 times
Been thanked: 132 times
I'd have to go through my collection once I get out of storage which I hope would be soon. I know I have a least both Princess Brides releases and and a few others. I think they're pretty much the same but on my setup its low end so everything looks about the same. i mean standard def stuff.
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Which is Better, CLV or CAV?
PostPosted: 26 Aug 2020, 00:13 
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: 03 May 2004, 19:05
Posts: 8093
Location: Dullaware
Has thanked: 1218 times
Been thanked: 841 times
I think someone else asked this or something similar to this.

There is a very small amount of LDs that may actually be better in CAV over CLV, could be like 5-8% but I doubt you would notice any difference
on modern TV or projector setups.

Its really about trick play and your players quality.
Better for anime but then again not all titles are in CAV and you are better off with a field memory like zeta says.

One thing I loved about the R7G was the extra field memory, when selected you could basically get 2 steps for CAV and 3 or 4 for CLV.

So in other words it would turn your CLV discs into CAV and your CAV discs into hyper CAV.

Other players do this too but I don't know which.
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Which is Better, CLV or CAV?
PostPosted: 26 Aug 2020, 00:42 
Jedi Knight
Jedi Knight
User avatar

Joined: 14 Jan 2010, 09:44
Posts: 5969
Location: Ann Arbor
Has thanked: 1273 times
Been thanked: 1089 times
I think the R7G lets you see field by field instead of just frame by frame in CAV. I’ve never used it though.
_________________
All about LD care, inner sleeves, shrink wrap, etc.

https://youtu.be/b3O-vHpHRpM
Online
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Which is Better, CLV or CAV?
PostPosted: 26 Aug 2020, 01:19 
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: 03 May 2004, 19:05
Posts: 8093
Location: Dullaware
Has thanked: 1218 times
Been thanked: 841 times
signofzeta wrote:
I think the R7G lets you see field by field instead of just frame by frame in CAV. I’ve never used it though.

Yes that's it, you can go frame by frame or select the button and then field by field or 2 for every frame, its pretty cool when
your player has it, but I also don't use still step anymore if at all.
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Which is Better, CLV or CAV?
PostPosted: 26 Aug 2020, 17:20 
Advanced fan
Advanced fan
User avatar

Joined: 16 Jun 2015, 15:40
Posts: 825
Location: Australia
Has thanked: 105 times
Been thanked: 95 times
Think in terms of 'real-estate' on the disc.

With CAV one rotation is one frame from beginning to end (hence the very visible two blanking intervals - two fields = one frame).

Now that means at the beginning of the disc for CAV, with my old primary school ruler and some simple maths one rotation is approx. 36cm (sorry 14.2" for the Neanderthals), though at the outside it's more like 93cm (36.5"). So it's pretty obvious that if by the outside of the disc you occupied the same linear space for one frame as you did on the inside you could fit almost three frames.

Probably the only thing initially holding this back in the early days was control and mechanisms to accurately slow the disc as it was read outwards so that other problems weren't introduced.

True CLV does just that; continually slows the disc as it reads outwards, however most 'CLV' discs are in fact CAA which does not continuously slow the disc as it plays but does it in multiple steps of fixed speed, avoiding so many crosstalk issues.

So CLV/CAA is more susceptible to crosstalk. While taking almost three times the space to record a single frame by the end, CAV can provide a better picture quality (better S/N ratio for example); but bearing in mind these differences only become more apparent as you head out towards the end of the disc.

How many times did you change your movie from end of side 2 (almost always CLV) to beginning of side 3 (almost always CAV) and notice no difference? That should be a good test. Alternately how often do you notice an improvement between the beginning and end of a CAV disc, or conversely a decline between beginning and end of a CLV? Maybe if you spent a lot of time comparing those and/or equivalent CAV/CLV issues at 29min onwards (outer CAV edge and theoretically best PQ) you might start to see more?

For me the convenience of CLV overrides any minimal difference in PQ any day. Not that I don't have a few CAV box-sets just because they're cool & the special features; but pretty much always if given the option of one or the other I'll choose the CLV.
_________________
Looking for Hi-Vision Discs (MUSE or HDVS).......
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Which is Better, CLV or CAV?
PostPosted: 26 Aug 2020, 18:25 
Honest fan
Honest fan
User avatar

Joined: 26 Feb 2020, 21:43
Posts: 79
Location: United States
Has thanked: 14 times
Been thanked: 26 times
I get it; thanks all.

I'm amazed there was even enough demand to warrant the extra CAV editions back in the day.
_________________
Elite CLD-59, DVL-909, CLD-D701, CLD-S201, CLD-990, Yamaha Demodulator. 80's/90's Action flicks.
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Which is Better, CLV or CAV?
PostPosted: 31 Dec 2020, 06:47 
Serious fan
Serious fan
User avatar

Joined: 30 Jan 2014, 09:12
Posts: 171
Location: United States
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 5 times
audioboyz1973 wrote:
With CAV one rotation is one frame from beginning to end (hence the very visible two blanking intervals - two fields = one frame).


Does this mean the discs are spinning at 24 spins/s for 24fps? I am surprised these players are still intact. Kudos to the engineers.
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Which is Better, CLV or CAV?
PostPosted: 31 Dec 2020, 09:45 
Site Admin
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: 07 Aug 2002, 23:37
Posts: 4540
Location: Tokyo
Has thanked: 292 times
Been thanked: 1136 times
rch928 wrote:
Does this mean the discs are spinning at 24 spins/s for 24fps? I am surprised these players are still intact. Kudos to the engineers.


Actually more (rps = round per second), calculation based on the rpm provided on Wikipedia:

NTSC/Hi-Vision CAV = 30rps
PAL CAV = 25rps

NTSC CLV = from 30rps at the beginning to 10rps at the end of a side
PAL CLV = from 25rps at the beginning to... 8.33ps? at the end of a side
Hi-Vision CLV = ~41.17rps at the beginning to ~15.59rps at the end of a side

A MUSE/Hi-Vision CLV disc spinning does feel like a plane is taking off, explaining why the MUSE player are more heavily built.

A CD Audio rotates at 3.33rps, a DVD at 9.67rps and a BD at 13.5rps.
Of course they are much smaller and especially much lighter.

This is why the LD mass inside the player must be pretty well centered, disc not warped or missing bits, otherwise the gravity center of the disc will not align with the player and you will either get an error message, turn your player into a washing maching or eventually crack the disc/player entirely.

Julien
_________________
HARDWARE DATABASE
HLD-X0/9 LD-S9 OPPO 105/205 SL-1200G
LDD-1 MSC-4000 R2144 PONTUS II C45 MC257
Online
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Which is Better, CLV or CAV?
PostPosted: 31 Dec 2020, 22:34 
Absolute fan
Absolute fan
User avatar

Joined: 18 Apr 2012, 18:02
Posts: 1614
Location: United States
Has thanked: 71 times
Been thanked: 88 times
CLV disks start with about the same quality as CAV, and get better further into the side as pit size increases.

On a Domesday Duplicator/ld-decode setup, it's possible to see a 5-10dB pre-NR increase in signal quality (i.e. 38 to 44-46dB) from the beginning to end of a side. Those marketing 52-54dB SNR player numbers are all based on the end of a CAV side. ;)

In addition below 10000 frames on a CAV disk (and therefore an entire CLV disk), the higher frequencies are attenuated enough that special processing is needed. If MUSE/red diode laser players were common, this wouldn't be as bad since their spot size would mostly make up for this.
_________________
Happycube Labs: Where the past is being re-made, today. [meep!]
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Which is Better, CLV or CAV?
PostPosted: 31 Dec 2020, 22:37 
Serious fan
Serious fan
User avatar

Joined: 30 Jan 2014, 09:12
Posts: 171
Location: United States
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 5 times
sheesh...I thought they were more like 1 spin / 1 second. Really interesting. Now I am worried about my 24 year old player breaking.
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Which is Better, CLV or CAV?
PostPosted: 31 Dec 2020, 23:03 
Jedi Knight
Jedi Knight
User avatar

Joined: 14 Jan 2010, 09:44
Posts: 5969
Location: Ann Arbor
Has thanked: 1273 times
Been thanked: 1089 times
rch928 wrote:
sheesh...I thought they were more like 1 spin / 1 second. Really interesting. Now I am worried about my 24 year old player breaking.


Slower than a record? I don't know if any disc spins that slow...other than the Kodak disc. :)
_________________
All about LD care, inner sleeves, shrink wrap, etc.

https://youtu.be/b3O-vHpHRpM
Online
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Which is Better, CLV or CAV?
PostPosted: 01 Jan 2021, 22:47 
Serious fan
Serious fan
User avatar

Joined: 30 Jan 2014, 09:12
Posts: 171
Location: United States
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 5 times
signofzeta wrote:
rch928 wrote:
sheesh...I thought they were more like 1 spin / 1 second. Really interesting. Now I am worried about my 24 year old player breaking.


Slower than a record? I don't know if any disc spins that slow...other than the Kodak disc. :)


forgive the ignorant, 1 spin per second seems pretty speedy...especially on those large discs.
Offline
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
 Page 1 of 1 [ 19 posts ] 


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: