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 Post subject: Slight Lip Sync Issue with Optical Audio
PostPosted: 13 Mar 2021, 00:32 
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I have a CLD D606 that I run through a Panasonic DMR ES25 (my budget upscaler) in composite and out HDMI straight to a 40in Sony Bravia. For audio I was previously using the 2 analog outs: one to the receiver, one to TV to prevent sync issue. Now I've added in an optical cable (straight from the LD into the receiver) because I've hooked up surround for digital and it's all fine but I get an ever so slight sync issue when playing discs. The audio is barely ahead of the video. I assume this is because there's no 2nd optical running to my TV to stop sync issue or maybe because the DMR is in the setup? Would a player with COAX digital out solve this?

My receiver is a Sony STR-DG710.

Thanks. First time poster, into LD since 2012.
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 Post subject: Re: Slight Lip Sync Issue with Optical Audio
PostPosted: 13 Mar 2021, 01:31 
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Your comparing the amount of time it takes the Panasonic to upscale the video to HDMI verses the Sony to process a digital bitstream. The RCA audio outputs do not need all the decoding of the optical bitstream. Your mixing too many different components in different signal paths, your bound to have issues. Look for an audio processing delay adjustment in the Sony, don't know if it has that but that is what you need.
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 Post subject: Re: Slight Lip Sync Issue with Optical Audio
PostPosted: 13 Mar 2021, 01:41 
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In the amp menu it simply has "AV SYNC Yes/No" and I've got it on YES....
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 Post subject: Re: Slight Lip Sync Issue with Optical Audio
PostPosted: 13 Mar 2021, 03:18 
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I don't suppose it offers the ability to manually adjust the delay?
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 Post subject: Re: Slight Lip Sync Issue with Optical Audio
PostPosted: 13 Mar 2021, 03:28 
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No it doesn't. When I upscale to component instead of HDMI from the DMR Es25, it seems like the delay is even less, I don't know if that's because it's not converting to an HD signal...
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 Post subject: Re: Slight Lip Sync Issue with Optical Audio
PostPosted: 13 Mar 2021, 03:48 
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Have you tried just hooking the player straight up to the TV?
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 Post subject: Re: Slight Lip Sync Issue with Optical Audio
PostPosted: 13 Mar 2021, 04:00 
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Audio and picture into the TV for me means the audio is fine but picture leaves a lot to be desired, which is why I have the ES25. I also have an ES15 although I'm pretty sure the comb filters are the same (?)
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 Post subject: Re: Slight Lip Sync Issue with Optical Audio
PostPosted: 13 Mar 2021, 05:18 
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You need to take the DMR out of the loop and go video and audio direct to the AV Receiver. I know you said the picture is not as nice but maybe it's because your picture settings on the TV is not optimized for the LD picture (remember that LD is encoded @ a higher IRE vs DVD / Blu ray so you have to turn the brightness down). In other words, you should have separate calibrations for older vs. newer video formats.

Also, it appears the DG710 doesn't upconvert composite to HDMI so I would recommend getting an AV Receiver that does it and then the lip sync feature in the receiver would work correctly. However, I have this feature on my Denon, AVR-2808Ci and I can't stand the look of the LD picture through the upconversion so I have kept a composite monitor out from the receiver to the TV for my LD and VHS playback and it looks fine to me.
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 Post subject: Re: Slight Lip Sync Issue with Optical Audio
PostPosted: 13 Mar 2021, 05:36 
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I've tried all kinds of settings on the TV specifically for LD.

How do users of high end pass thru processors/scalers avoid these sync issues? I was thinking of getting a Faroudja processor instead of the budget option of my old Panasonic but from what I'm reading not all of the recommended units are set up to upscale to 1080p.
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 Post subject: Re: Slight Lip Sync Issue with Optical Audio
PostPosted: 13 Mar 2021, 06:04 
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urethrafranklin wrote:

How do users of high end pass thru processors/scalers avoid these sync issues?


When it comes to all modern standalone processors, you simply run both the audio (digital and analog) and video connections to it so that it knows how much of a delay it needs to add to the audio. That's simply the key to keeping everything synced correctly.

With you just running "only the video" to the DMR, you are bypassing it's ability to slow down the audio (and of course you are doing this because there is no digital audio input option on the recorder) and that's why your time sync will never match.
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 Post subject: Re: Slight Lip Sync Issue with Optical Audio
PostPosted: 13 Mar 2021, 06:11 
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So basically I should let the receiver do the upscaling work if I don't want to put down lots of money on a standalone processor? Then I can always had a processor in between in the future? I don't really love my current amp but I got it for just $10. Are there any Sony receivers that are particularly good at up-scaling composite? Every one talks about Denon or Yamaha...

Then the monitor line to the TV would just be an HDMI line, correct?
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 Post subject: Re: Slight Lip Sync Issue with Optical Audio
PostPosted: 13 Mar 2021, 06:36 
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First problem is that your Sony doesn’t upscale at all. It will not convert your composite video to HDMI.

You can still get a separate processor to run the LD audio & video signals to it and then run HDMI from there to the current Sony AV Receiver. The signal from the processor will then just pass the processed video and time delayed audio appropriately for the AV Receiver to decode the rest.

Like I said, I don’t like the processor in my Denon AVR but I’ll assume it’s not great since It’s from 2008. I’m going to be experimenting with an older DVDO VP30 to see if I can get it to best my Sony TV’s built in processing but I’ll have to see where that goes.
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 Post subject: Re: Slight Lip Sync Issue with Optical Audio
PostPosted: 13 Mar 2021, 06:53 
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My Bravia is from 2008 and it does what it can to impove LD and even VHS but plugging composite from LD player into it just isn't optimal for me, at least until I get a higher end player.

Is there a list a recommended composite upscaling receivers somewhere? I'm just finding all sorts of conflicting information out there, people saying receivers aren't good enough with upscaling....I guess if my TV were more modern it would carry the load of upscaling better.
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 Post subject: Re: Slight Lip Sync Issue with Optical Audio
PostPosted: 13 Mar 2021, 07:33 
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urethrafranklin wrote:

Is there a list a recommended composite upscaling receivers somewhere? I'm just finding all sorts of conflicting information out there, people saying receivers aren't good enough with upscaling....



I couldn't say unless I actually played with all of them which ain't gonna happen :roll:. However, from what I have seen, a standalone processor has way more customization control over what is in an AV Receiver (my Denon just has simple rudimentary options; just a stripped down version of something found in full fledged processors).


urethrafranklin wrote:
....I guess if my TV were more modern it would carry the load of upscaling better.


It still depends on the TV. I think Sony's XBR series still have great 3D comb filters and video processing to get the most out the composite signal.
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 Post subject: Re: Slight Lip Sync Issue with Optical Audio
PostPosted: 13 Mar 2021, 07:37 
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I'm seeing good things about the Onkyo TX NR626 and the Pioneer VSX 1131...it really depends on what I can get for a better price right now, processor or receiver. It will be a huge pain in the a** to change out the receiver but it might be time....At least I've got to the root of the sync issue I guess.
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 Post subject: Re: Slight Lip Sync Issue with Optical Audio
PostPosted: 13 Mar 2021, 09:59 
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urethrafranklin wrote:
For audio I was previously using the 2 analog outs: one to the receiver, one to TV to prevent sync issue. Now I've added in an optical cable (straight from the LD into the receiver) because I've hooked up surround for digital and it's all fine but I get an ever so slight sync issue when playing discs.


Why are you using the digital out again? Is it for DTS? If it’s just for regular Pro Logic then just go back to using analog if that works. You don’t need the digital out to get OG surround, (although a lot of people do think that.)
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 Post subject: Re: Slight Lip Sync Issue with Optical Audio
PostPosted: 13 Mar 2021, 10:24 
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I thought the point of using the digital out was to use the receiver's DAC which might be better than the players built in one.
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 Post subject: Re: Slight Lip Sync Issue with Optical Audio
PostPosted: 13 Mar 2021, 19:38 
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takeshi666 wrote:
I thought the point of using the digital out was to use the receiver's DAC which might be better than the players built in one.


Yes...but in how many cases is that understood by the user and in how many cases are they just using optical because it’s a newer invention than line out?

If it causes delay that requires $$$ be spent fixing sync issues in his specific case then I’d say that in this specific case it’s a downgrade far more significant than quality of DAC could be.
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 Post subject: Re: Slight Lip Sync Issue with Optical Audio
PostPosted: 13 Mar 2021, 22:10 
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I decided to do some additional research on time delay options on AV Receivers. As it turns out, I may be wrong about some or maybe all AV Receivers and their capabilities.

I decided to compare my Denon, AVR-2808Ci to a Pioneer, VSX-1020-K that I had recently acquired but not set up. And what I found is that both units do appear to have an additional delay option as follows (using the Pioneer model as an example)....

Image
This first image indicates a manual override delay that is controllable up to 10 frames (up to 1/3 of a second based on 30 frames per second). However, I'm not sure if it works strictly for HDMI or a combination of analog and digital inputs but I assume it won't discriminate since it makes no mention. The Denon appears to not be as flexible in that it appears to only have the option of 0 to 200 microsecond delay (in one microsecond increments).


Image
This second image is the auto delay function which is more common on just about all HDMI equipped AV Receivers. This works strictly w/ HDMI and that makes sense since all the handshakes between the source, AV Receiver, and monitor would all agree how much delay would be needed based on how they process the video.


So yes..... maybe you need to dive deeper into your Sony to see if it maybe has a manual delay as it could be buried deep in the menus. And if it turns out that is the case, you can fix your issue just like that.
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