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LDs sourced from Theatrical Prints instead of IPs
https://forum.lddb.com/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=2206		 Page 2 of 6
Author:  acuozzo [ 13 Jan 2013, 00:34 ]
Post subject:  Re: LDs sourced from Theatrical Prints instead of IPs
myrtle1beach wrote:
Projected 35mm film reels usually ran about 15 minutes give or take a minute before doing a film change over. Most projectionsts built several of these reels onto one big reel so they only had to do one projector change. But unfortunately as i really wanted to become a movie projectionst they came up with a platter system that only required you start the fim as it was on a continuous loop. I guess now they are getting so they use a dvd or somehow call in a movie code doing away with film prints all together. WHAT A Shame. The 1929 theatre in town which has projectors now sets up a dvd player & shows it on the screen i call that cheating.

Well, they're probably using a better digital source than DVD. :|

I agree. Film is a wonderful, but dying medium.
Author:  acuozzo [ 13 Jan 2013, 00:37 ]
Post subject:  Re: LDs sourced from Theatrical Prints instead of IPs
rein-o wrote:
i was going to say that i sort or remember films from Japan had the marks.
but now wouldn't you want the disc from the film since that's what we want to see.
movies at home that look like they are from film?

are some criterion done this way? i know that they would get prints from the directors that had them.

There's a discussion about this over at originaltrilogy.com: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic. ... Post612056

Enjoy! :thumbup:
Author:  acuozzo [ 13 Jan 2013, 00:38 ]
Post subject:  Re: LDs sourced from Theatrical Prints instead of IPs
I've updated the OP. Thanks, guys!

Please keep 'em coming! :clap:
Author:  flcl4evr [ 13 Jan 2013, 01:35 ]
Post subject:  Re: LDs sourced from Theatrical Prints instead of IPs
acuozzo wrote:
myrtle1beach wrote:
Projected 35mm film reels usually ran about 15 minutes give or take a minute before doing a film change over. Most projectionsts built several of these reels onto one big reel so they only had to do one projector change. But unfortunately as i really wanted to become a movie projectionst they came up with a platter system that only required you start the fim as it was on a continuous loop. I guess now they are getting so they use a dvd or somehow call in a movie code doing away with film prints all together. WHAT A Shame. The 1929 theatre in town which has projectors now sets up a dvd player & shows it on the screen i call that cheating.

Well, they're probably using a better digital source than DVD. :|

I agree. Film is a wonderful, but dying medium.

What they use in most modern theaters are hard drives that they pop into a computerized storage device that takes the video and audio puts them on a timed schedule to play at resolution of 2K or 4K. Me personally? I prefer a good 35mm print, which can master a 4K resolution or better depending on how the film was finished.
Author:  acuozzo [ 13 Jan 2013, 01:50 ]
Post subject:  Re: LDs sourced from Theatrical Prints instead of IPs
flcl4evr wrote:
acuozzo wrote:
myrtle1beach wrote:
Projected 35mm film reels usually ran about 15 minutes give or take a minute before doing a film change over. Most projectionsts built several of these reels onto one big reel so they only had to do one projector change. But unfortunately as i really wanted to become a movie projectionst they came up with a platter system that only required you start the fim as it was on a continuous loop. I guess now they are getting so they use a dvd or somehow call in a movie code doing away with film prints all together. WHAT A Shame. The 1929 theatre in town which has projectors now sets up a dvd player & shows it on the screen i call that cheating.

Well, they're probably using a better digital source than DVD. :|

I agree. Film is a wonderful, but dying medium.

What they use in most modern theaters are hard drives that they pop into a computerized storage device that takes the video and audio puts them on a timed schedule to play at resolution of 2K or 4K. Me personally? I prefer a good 35mm print, which can master a 4K resolution or better depending on how the film was finished.

I prefer 35mm as well.
Author:  alien [ 13 Jan 2013, 02:22 ]
Post subject:  Re: LDs sourced from Theatrical Prints instead of IPs
Like I said previously: Atlantic City - http://www.lddb.com/laserdisc/34711/LVP ... %281981%29

&

American Werewolf in London - http://www.lddb.com/laserdisc/34679/790 ... %281981%29
Author:  signofzeta [ 13 Jan 2013, 09:50 ]
Post subject:  Re: LDs sourced from Theatrical Prints instead of IPs
myrtle1beach wrote:
Projected 35mm film reels usually ran about 15 minutes give or take a minute before doing a film change over. Most projectionsts built several of these reels onto one big reel so they only had to do one projector change. But unfortunately as i really wanted to become a movie projectionst they came up with a platter system that only required you start the fim as it was on a continuous loop. I guess now they are getting so they use a dvd or somehow call in a movie code doing away with film prints all together. WHAT A Shame. The 1929 theatre in town which has projectors now sets up a dvd player & shows it on the screen i call that cheating.


I had a friend who worked in a mall theater in the 90s when Jurassic Park 2 came out. They didn't have as many prints as they wanted so they built the print up in one booth where it went through a projector there, then it went through a hole in the wall to the projection booth next door, went through that projector, and then onto the take up platter. This probably would be illegal, but nobody seemed to care.
Author:  Guest [ 13 Jan 2013, 11:17 ]
Post subject:  Re: LDs sourced from Theatrical Prints instead of IPs
Hahaha i seen that before @ a screening of ID4 :thumbup:
Author:  nissling [ 13 Jan 2013, 12:06 ]
Post subject:  Re: LDs sourced from Theatrical Prints instead of IPs
rein-o wrote:
are some criterion done this way? i know that they would get prints from the directors that had them.


I remember watching Ikiru on LD by Criterion which had cue marks every tenth minute or so, I'll take a closer look at it when I get the time.
Author:  disclord [ 13 Jan 2013, 15:02 ]
Post subject:  Re: LDs sourced from Theatrical Prints instead of IPs
flcl4evr wrote:
acuozzo wrote:
myrtle1beach wrote:
Projected 35mm film reels usually ran about 15 minutes give or take a minute before doing a film change over. Most projectionsts built several of these reels onto one big reel so they only had to do one projector change. But unfortunately as i really wanted to become a movie projectionst they came up with a platter system that only required you start the fim as it was on a continuous loop. I guess now they are getting so they use a dvd or somehow call in a movie code doing away with film prints all together. WHAT A Shame. The 1929 theatre in town which has projectors now sets up a dvd player & shows it on the screen i call that cheating.

Well, they're probably using a better digital source than DVD. :|

I agree. Film is a wonderful, but dying medium.

What they use in most modern theaters are hard drives that they pop into a computerized storage device that takes the video and audio puts them on a timed schedule to play at resolution of 2K or 4K. Me personally? I prefer a good 35mm print, which can master a 4K resolution or better depending on how the film was finished.


Actual resolution of a 35mm projected print, due to the high speed printing and jitter in the projector, is about 600 lines horizontally and 700 lines vertically - animorphic is about 400 lines horizontally since horizontal animorphic squeeze always reduces horizontal resolution (it does with DVD and animorphic LaserDisc's too). The 35mm measurements were taken by the SMPTE back in the late 90's when setting digital standards. Standard 5 perf 70mm projected is about 1200 lines and IMAX is about 2000 lines. This has nothing to do with what film is capable of, but what the audience actually sees when film is projected. Color resolution is another matter entirely since film can have full color resolution down to the film grains.
Author:  sdraper [ 13 Jan 2013, 18:52 ]
Post subject:  Re: LDs sourced from Theatrical Prints instead of IPs
Criterion's North by Northwest. In addition to having older styled cue marks, theatrical print sourced mono (only full release of this), and framing for VistaVision at 1.75:1, this features an alternate color timing on the print itself that seems to fall between the darkness and detail of the 50th Anniversary restoration and the earlier 2000's Lowry version.
North by Northwest #45A (1959) [CC1226L]

I'm almost 100% positive though I haven't seen the discs, that Criterion's issues of Dr. No, From Russia With Love, and Goldfinger are exactly this way. On our ot.com Bond thread, we found these do have the cue marks/alternate coloring/full mono and may possibly be Technicolor prints. They are differently timed to the MGM/UA releases which all use the same master source for every issue. Dr. No on the MGM issue found in the Connery Collection Vol. 1 has a few cue marks, but overall I've thought that these were sourced from IPs and studio prints for the official studio transfers.

Sourced from fine grain negative: It's a Wonderful Life: Special Edition #18 (1946) [CC1112L]
Print sourced, possibly from a fine grain source archived: Bringing Up Baby (1938) [ID3219TU]
Sourced from 35mm master, which was a printdown of the original 70mm Cinerama negative, but in same 2.20:1 aspect ratio: 2001: A Space Odyssey: Special Edition #60 (1968) (Uncut) [CC1160L]
Sourced from Sam Peckinpah's personal print which he had to steal from the studio and keep in his garage. Only version that exists of uncut film, and same sourced used for DVd version: Pat Garrett & Billy the Kid (1973) (Uncut) [ML102238]
Author:  disclord [ 13 Jan 2013, 19:49 ]
Post subject:  Re: LDs sourced from Theatrical Prints instead of IPs
sdraper wrote:
Criterion's North by Northwest. In addition to having older styled cue marks, theatrical print sourced mono (only full release of this), and framing for VistaVision at 1.75:1, this features an alternate color timing on the print itself that seems to fall between the darkness and detail of the 50th Anniversary restoration and the earlier 2000's Lowry version.
North by Northwest #45A (1959) [CC1226L]

I'm almost 100% positive though I haven't seen the discs, that Criterion's issues of Dr. No, From Russia With Love, and Goldfinger are exactly this way. On our ot.com Bond thread, we found these do have the cue marks/alternate coloring/full mono and may possibly be Technicolor prints. They are differently timed to the MGM/UA releases which all use the same master source for every issue. Dr. No on the MGM issue found in the Connery Collection Vol. 1 has a few cue marks, but overall I've thought that these were sourced from IPs and studio prints for the official studio transfers.

Sourced from fine grain negative: It's a Wonderful Life: Special Edition #18 (1946) [CC1112L]
Print sourced, possibly from a fine grain source archived: Bringing Up Baby (1938) [ID3219TU]
Sourced from 35mm master, which was a printdown of the original 70mm Cinerama negative, but in same 2.20:1 aspect ratio: 2001: A Space Odyssey: Special Edition #60 (1968) (Uncut) [CC1160L]
Sourced from Sam Peckinpah's personal print which he had to steal from the studio and keep in his garage. Only version that exists of uncut film, and same sourced used for DVd version: Pat Garrett & Billy the Kid (1973) (Uncut) [ML102238]


The Criterion 2001 was mastered from Kubrick's personal 35mm print - and with an aspect ratio of about 1.90:1, well short of the 2.35:1 Scope ratio of the 35mm print. There was no 70mm Cinerama master - there was a 70mm Super Panavision master with a 2.20:1 ratio. 2001 was shown in Cinerama theaters but it was not a Cinerama film. MGM did actual 70mm transfers for their two widescreen releases of 2001 - the CAV edition used a newer transfer and has an aspect ratio of 2.20:1 which is a much more accurate aspect ratio than the Criterion. The CAV transfer was the master used for the first non-animorphic DVD release and had the full directional dialog soundtrack, as did the Criterion - the later animorphic DVD and Blu-ray have been mixed to mostly mono dialog and effects.

True Technicolor prints have star burst shaped reel change marks - if the film doesn't have the star burst cue, it's not from a technicolor print.
Author:  sdraper [ 13 Jan 2013, 21:17 ]
Post subject:  Re: LDs sourced from Theatrical Prints instead of IPs
Sorry, I meant to say Super Panavision. Actually the 35mm release issues were struck at 2.20:1, as per Kubrick's instruction. I've seen one and it indeed is that ratio.

The MGM release should in theory be better, but the Criterion trumps it easily despite the 35mm source and the heavier cropping. How much does the CAV issue improve on the initial MGM version? I suppose the different coloring on the first MGM DVD/CAV LD is more print accurate when comparing to the later Warner DVD and BD issues. It certainly looks like the 35mm print I saw a few years ago, and certainly a bit more 60's in feeling at least to my eyes. http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film/DVDReview/2001.htm
The dialog panning is very helpful in the overall atmospherics, when compared to the modern 5.1 remix that keeps everything in the center channel. Of course, I'm only able to compare to the non-discrete matrixed LD version as I don't have the DVD with the correct 5.1 track. However, the 35mm print was fantastic and I assume mono despite filing the theater brilliantly.

One day I hope to have a home projector and view the film with the original mix either with a faux SmileBox attempt or with a built up curved screen. Since it was a single projector Cinerama film, this seems feasible at least.

When you say Tech had a starburst mark, do you mean one as pictured here: http://www.dvdtalk.com/dvdsavant/s22changecue.html
Author:  disclord [ 14 Jan 2013, 02:02 ]
Post subject:  Re: LDs sourced from Theatrical Prints instead of IPs
Yep, that's the Technicolor reel change mark. If a disc has it, you know they used an IB Tech print.
Author:  brmanuk [ 14 Jan 2013, 02:43 ]
Post subject:  Re: LDs sourced from Theatrical Prints instead of IPs
Man, almost every HK release of a US film has these cue marks. Especially titles released by the likes of Ocean Shores and Mei-Ah.
Author:  Guest [ 14 Jan 2013, 19:20 ]
Post subject:  Re: LDs sourced from Theatrical Prints instead of IPs
What is the future for film prints will it be about gone forever to see a projected film print with REAL projectors or will they be called in?
Author:  blam1 [ 14 Jan 2013, 20:06 ]
Post subject:  Re: LDs sourced from Theatrical Prints instead of IPs
signofzeta wrote:
myrtle1beach wrote:
Projected 35mm film reels usually ran about 15 minutes give or take a minute before doing a film change over. Most projectionsts built several of these reels onto one big reel so they only had to do one projector change. But unfortunately as i really wanted to become a movie projectionst they came up with a platter system that only required you start the fim as it was on a continuous loop. I guess now they are getting so they use a dvd or somehow call in a movie code doing away with film prints all together. WHAT A Shame. The 1929 theatre in town which has projectors now sets up a dvd player & shows it on the screen i call that cheating.


I had a friend who worked in a mall theater in the 90s when Jurassic Park 2 came out. They didn't have as many prints as they wanted so they built the print up in one booth where it went through a projector there, then it went through a hole in the wall to the projection booth next door, went through that projector, and then onto the take up platter. This probably would be illegal, but nobody seemed to care.


It's called interlocking and is totally legal. I've interlocked five screens with one print in the past. It's a total pain in the butt, but when it's a way to maximize the number of tickets you can sell. The studios take their percentage based on the number of tickets you sell, so they always get their cut.

Now with Digital Cinema, they send you a single hard drive and you can copy it to as many auditoriums as you like - you just need decryption keys for each projector you want to run it on.
Author:  elahrairrah [ 14 Jan 2013, 20:20 ]
Post subject:  Re: LDs sourced from Theatrical Prints instead of IPs
brmanuk wrote:
Man, almost every HK release of a US film has these cue marks. Especially titles released by the likes of Ocean Shores and Mei-Ah.

Some are even anamorphic having come from anamorphic prints!
Author:  elahrairrah [ 14 Jan 2013, 20:24 ]
Post subject:  Re: LDs sourced from Theatrical Prints instead of IPs
myrtle1beach wrote:
What is the future for film prints will it be about gone forever to see a projected film print with REAL projectors or will they be called in?

I'm beginning to think that the only place we'll see film is revivals and special screenings. I can't imagine the studios making many film prints these days since almost all the movies I see in theaters now are digital.

At least I'll always have Exhumed Films! (probably doesn't help you if you aren't into horror/exploitation/bad sci-fi.)
Author:  alien [ 15 Jan 2013, 02:11 ]
Post subject:  Re: LDs sourced from Theatrical Prints instead of IPs
I saw the Tree of Life in late 2011 which I know was shot with film but also looked to be projected that way too. It wasn't so much a main stream theater.
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