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samaron
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Post subject: Re: why do only Japanese jackets develop brown spots (foxing Posted: 14 Apr 2017, 18:36 |
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Joined: 05 Jul 2011, 15:10 Posts: 898 Location: Norway Has thanked: 0 time Been thanked: 5 times
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I thought the new official name for it was "pizza dirt"? I've never really thought about it. Always thought it had something to do with the humidity. My understanding is that Japan is fairly humid. Doing some quick searches online, it seems what causes this phenomenon is a bit unknown and only speculated. I still haven't experienced any jackets have developed foxing after import. I do have several that already had it when I got them, but doesn't appear to have gotten worse. Doesn't seem to be much of a difference if the surface has a matte or glossy finish. Got a box set that has a standard glossy finish, but has foxing stains.
_________________ Player: Pioneer HLD-X9 and CLD-2950 My LD collection Recently started collecting some anime on LD
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Guest
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Post subject: Re: why do only Japanese jackets develop brown spots (foxing Posted: 14 Apr 2017, 20:18 |
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Learn something new everyday. I've seen this on some otherwise excellent condition HK discs I got.
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rein-o
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Post subject: Re: why do only Japanese jackets develop brown spots (foxing Posted: 14 Apr 2017, 20:46 |
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Joined: 03 May 2004, 19:05 Posts: 8108 Location: Dullaware Has thanked: 1221 times Been thanked: 846 times
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samaron wrote: I thought the new official name for it was "pizza dirt"? I wish he was complaining about the foxing, it was something else he "found" But from now on in think we should call all flaws "pizza dirt" My disc has poor playback what is it? well its pizza dirt
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Guest
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Post subject: Re: why do only Japanese jackets develop brown spots (foxing Posted: 20 Apr 2017, 19:27 |
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laserdisc_fan wrote: I've noticed a consistent trend where Japanese jackets seem more prone to discolouration and age spots than those from USA or Europe. The answer is OBA. The way the Japanese mills produce paper since the dawn of (UNIX at least) time always requires addition of lots of brightening agent to give the paper that extra white look the love. The downside is, as time goes by, surprisingly mostly regardless of the environment condition(!), those agents go bad and stain the paper. I am not sure how many people understand the analogy but the effect an OBA has on paper is the key factor in determination of originality of a photograph. Traditional photo papers made back in the day never used brighteners, while those made since the late 1950 use them on regular basis especially for the Resin Coated types. So for an average photo collector without special skills and knowledge , armed only with a "black light" lamp- any cheap UV lamp used in nail care would do- the bluish shine produced by OBA treated papers under the UV is the dead giveaway for a "fake" photo. If you put your Japanese LD/LP jacket or a magazine under a UV light source it will shine blue. If you have ever seen Japanese wartime photos you know the devastating effect of brighteners on the paper. The Japanese photo papers have ALWAYS been using some sort of chemical brighteners, regardless of age. So if the current look of the sleeve of your "Private Film of David Bowie" hits your eye like a big pizza pie that's not amore- that's OBA, the brighteners that accelerate the aging and eventually decomposition of the paper it is made from. I believe the US printing plants used some type of kraft paper for LD sleeves and I think it might even have something to do with OSHA and the like, those thing that eventually banned good, lasting, quality automotive paint in the US and AFAIK now in the Union of European Socialist Republics.
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je280
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Post subject: Re: why do only Japanese jackets develop brown spots (foxing Posted: 21 Apr 2017, 10:43 |
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Joined: 13 Sep 2012, 23:14 Posts: 1199 Location: United Kingdom Has thanked: 265 times Been thanked: 259 times
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ldworld wrote: laserdisc_fan wrote: I've noticed a consistent trend where Japanese jackets seem more prone to discolouration and age spots than those from USA or Europe. The answer is OBA. The way the Japanese mills produce paper since the dawn of (UNIX at least) time always requires addition of lots of brightening agent to give the paper that extra white look the love. The downside is, as time goes by, surprisingly mostly regardless of the environment condition(!), those agents go bad and stain the paper. I am not sure how many people understand the analogy but the effect an OBA has on paper is the key factor in determination of originality of a photograph. Traditional photo papers made back in the day never used brighteners, while those made since the late 1950 use them on regular basis especially for the Resin Coated types. So for an average photo collector without special skills and knowledge , armed only with a "black light" lamp- any cheap UV lamp used in nail care would do- the bluish shine produced by OBA treated papers under the UV is the dead giveaway for a "fake" photo. If you put your Japanese LD/LP jacket or a magazine under a UV light source it will shine blue. If you have ever seen Japanese wartime photos you know the devastating effect of brighteners on the paper. The Japanese photo papers have ALWAYS been using some sort of chemical brighteners, regardless of age. So if the current look of the sleeve of your "Private Film of David Bowie" hits your eye like a big pizza pie that's not amore- that's OBA, the brighteners that accelerate the aging and eventually decomposition of the paper it is made from. I believe the US printing plants used some type of kraft paper for LD sleeves and I think it might even have something to do with OSHA and the like, those thing that eventually banned good, lasting, quality automotive paint in the US and AFAIK now in the Union of European Socialist Republics. Very interesting, thanks. So many things contain optical brightening agents & it appears we like everything shiny white. Got a few titles from Japan, same title - same production run, where one has the brown spotting on the cover but the other is totally blemish free. Light apparently is a killer & can accelerate the issue - how it was originally handled & stored plays a roll also. Great post, thanks again ldworld . Cheers
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Guest
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Post subject: Re: why do only Japanese jackets develop brown spots (foxing Posted: 21 Apr 2017, 17:45 |
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rein-o wrote: So unless the OBA was used in all paper from Japan i don't know how true this is for ALL printed cardboard/paper products.
It is not correct to compare the value of a disposable product to something made to last, with the intention to keep it. When the Japanese economy hit the all time low during the final years of the Great East Asia War they printed those "photo reviews" trumpeting yet another "glorious victory" of the "Undefeated Imperial Army" on kind of paper one would think twice to wipe a workshop wrench with. One would not expect to purchase a 300 yen comic mag and be blown away by the print and paper quality ,as the final destination for that publication would most likely be a garbage bin. If on the other hand, one is contemplating spending about 20K Yen on an "art book" (whatever that means) the quality of materials it's made with plays the key role in the decision to part with that amount of money which is substantial even in Japan. There is a well-founded expectation that this kind of purchase is an investment the value of which could be appreciated in the future. This is why the quality of a disposable box is not the same as the quality of an LD jacket, the kind of luxury goods which, priced at Y5800-Y7800 is not something one would find in trash. While there definitely are a lot of paper product made in Japan without any OBA or other magic potions added the top tier papers always use such agents, the composition and quality of which, of course has changed as any chemical product would over time, thus maybe, lessening its side effect on the paper.
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forper
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Post subject: Re: why do only Japanese jackets develop brown spots (foxing Posted: 22 Apr 2017, 10:39 |
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Joined: 01 May 2016, 06:38 Posts: 2040 Location: Australia Has thanked: 334 times Been thanked: 222 times
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ldworld wrote: one is contemplating spending about 20K Yen on an "art book" (whatever that means) the quality of materials it's made with plays the key role in the decision to part with that amount of money which is substantial even in Japan. Thanks for your great posts, really interesting. Just wondering what artbook cost Y20,000 though? Are you talking anime artbooks? They're usually less than Y5,000 retail for the best ones. Maybe you're talking idol photo books? Also much less than Y20K retail. Gallery grade hardcover artbooks on great art? Maybe Y20K?? I've been parusing my modest collection of anime artbooks from the 80s and 90s. Macross Perfect Memory from '83 has foxing on the gray obi, the book itself is fine. Dragon's Heaven from '85 has some very minor "foxing" on the cover, Macross 7 Animation Materials from '95 has no foxing and very bright whites on the dust cover and in the book itself....hmmm
_________________ SONY MDP-355GX, DVDO iscan VP50, SONY KVHR-M36
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laserdisc_fan
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Post subject: Re: why do only Japanese jackets develop brown spots (foxing Posted: 22 Apr 2017, 11:00 |
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Joined: 29 Jan 2006, 20:05 Posts: 2266 Location: United Kingdom Has thanked: 0 time Been thanked: 23 times
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ldworld wrote: This is why the quality of a disposable box is not the same as the quality of an LD jacket, the kind of luxury goods which, priced at Y5800-Y7800 is not something one would find in trash.
That's the sort of price for an average Japanese laserdisc which begs the question why are the jackets so susceptible to foxing. OBIs fox too but nowhere near as often and presumably they are intended to be disgarded but no one is going to throw away the jacket. I just think whatever process Japan was using is flawed since their products were sold as premium products but the jackets don't always hold up.
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Guest
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Post subject: Re: why do only Japanese jackets develop brown spots (foxing Posted: 22 Apr 2017, 18:47 |
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Quote: but no one is going to throw away the jacket. Well, that's exactly what SONY wanted you to do with the introduction of their 300 and the 400 DVD changers. They even provided "jacket picture" with each disc authored by them and the changer was (still is) able to display the pic on the TV it was hooked up to. Quote: I just think whatever process Japan was using is flawed since their products were sold as premium products but the jackets don't always hold up. They did everything they could to sell the product. They made you THINK this piece of plastic is a "premium" product which justifies the price. They made you BELIEVE and you fell for for. Do they care what happens next? Nobody does. They have to make money and keep the workforce busy. That's one of the faces of the thing known as progress. Could they predict the future? Then again do they care or have to? The past tense used in describing the "process" does indeed confirm that the "process" is flawed by today's standard but was not considered such back in the day. If my luxury car from 1995 is a pile of rust now, does it mean "it doesn't hold up"? To what? And above all that , nothing is perfect and the perfection can never be achieved but if one day it has been achieved then life will no longer have the purpose- that the basis of Asian in general and Japanese in particular outlook on everything that's going on under between Heaven and Earth.
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Guest
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Post subject: Re: why do only Japanese jackets develop brown spots (foxing Posted: 22 Apr 2017, 19:03 |
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Quote: Thanks for your posts DOMO Quote: Just wondering what artbook cost Y20,000 though? I just made up a random figure which is in the ballpark of what I'd pay for a book of my interest. I usually buy those that fall under the classification of "antiquarian" so Y20K is an average figure for that kind of book. So for the sake of simplicity let's assume the Y20K "artbook" (or just a book) in question is an OOP of recent vintage with the current market value of 20K...
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laserdisc_fan
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Post subject: Re: why do only Japanese jackets develop brown spots (foxing Posted: 22 Apr 2017, 19:21 |
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Joined: 29 Jan 2006, 20:05 Posts: 2266 Location: United Kingdom Has thanked: 0 time Been thanked: 23 times
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ldworld wrote: If on the other hand, one is contemplating spending about 20K Yen on an "art book" (whatever that means) the quality of materials it's made with plays the key role in the decision to part with that amount of money which is substantial even in Japan. There is a well-founded expectation that this kind of purchase is an investment the value of which could be appreciated in the future.
This boxset Ed Sullivan Show, The (1999) [PILF-2809] originally cost 38,000 yen. I've 2 copies of it. One pristine and one with some foxing. Given this would fall into the premium price bracket and the materials used in both copies would have been identical its still a mystery why one has foxing and the other has not. I'm still inclined to believe the foxing developed on the copy that was 'handled' as the other copy still had its original plastic cover fully intact and was literally as new still. You can easily tell if an item has been handled by breathing on it and seeing the finger marks etc.
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laserdisc_fan
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Post subject: Re: why do only Japanese jackets develop brown spots (foxing Posted: 23 Apr 2017, 00:19 |
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Joined: 29 Jan 2006, 20:05 Posts: 2266 Location: United Kingdom Has thanked: 0 time Been thanked: 23 times
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forper wrote: Interesting LDfan. Perhaps some interaction between the oils in human skin and the chemicals in the paper or Oba, cause/accelerate foxing? What do you think ldworld? I could name many other examples where the consistent themes are: 1) Japanese title 2) Copy that has foxing has definitely signs of more usage, fingerprints & handling Interestingly age doesn't seem to be to factor as I've seen pristine white 35 year old jackets while other jackets from as late as even 2001 have signs of foxing along the edge of the jacket which would be a classic area that might be touched by a hand. So overall I'd say the foxing is triggered by some sort of chemical reaction as a result of handling and that the more matt absorbent finish of Japanese sleeves lends itself to this process. The more glossy finish on USA jackets seems to protect them from this happening. That's why I never touch sleeves directly and always make sure my hands are clean and bone dry when handling the bags or inner sleeves as those will be in contact with the inside of the jacket. So far I've seen no acceleration in the formation of foxing on any sleeves I own in 11 years of collecting. Any that had no foxing to begin with remain free from it and again that seems to match my findings that as long as I don't touch them they will be fine. The big problem is I can't tell what the person before me was doing with the sleeve before I bought it until I inspect it first hand! You might be thinking at this point the solution is easy - buy only sealed copies! Well I've loads of sealed copies and even those are not without their problems. I own some brand new still sealed LDs with gold OBIs that show every little fingerprint including those received in the factory. I've examples where those same 'still sealed' jackets foxed in the areas where they were handled which is further confirmation of what I have suggested. Again identical titles which had no signs of handling were perfect.
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