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 Post subject: Re: The Laserdisc Screenshot Thread
PostPosted: 01 Feb 2013, 12:01 
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Also signofzeta, I don't know if this has much to do with anything in regards to the credentials of my 32" 720p LCD display handling Laserdisc well, but my HD TV generally handles SD channels better then actual HD channels. SD channels look SD but have good colour rendition and are quite sharp and detailed. HD channels tend to look a bit soft depending on the content. Don't get me wrong, it does a great job with HD video games and Blu-Ray discs when fed through HDMI, but the point is, to me, it actuelly handles SD stuff in general very well which also includes upscaled DVD and Laserdisc (but not VHS, which just looks plain bad, but hell VHS looked bad on my old CRT too.)

Plus my viewing distance is about 6 feet..

It may help that I use one of the best if not the best mid-range Laserdisc player around as well? Because I know LD players varied a lot individually in terms of all round quality from the ultra cheap ones to the elite high end models being analog and all...
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 Post subject: Re: The Laserdisc Screenshot Thread
PostPosted: 01 Feb 2013, 19:20 
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There are a lot of different TVs out there and a lot of different opinions of what is good, mine is just one of them.

There are also a lot of people who may be perfectly happy with their setups not knowing just how much better things can look and I am happy for them. They are lucky. Sometimes it's fun being a hyper picky gear snob like me, sometimes it's just an expensive night spent alone drooling over great gear because nobody else cares enough to drool over it with you. :)

The problem that I'm describing with composite on most HDTVs...and by "HDTV" I include any type of display technology with a fixed native resolution, regardless of it being "true" or "full" HD (fake distinctions) and regardless of whether its plasma, CRT, LCD, OLED, projected or not, is that the circuit that digitizes SD signals is usually garbage. It's less garbage with YPBPR than it is with composite. The distinction between VHS and LD, which seemed SO significant 20 years ago, it's minor by comparison to the difference between different TV's upscaling circuit. It's not a simple task, converting interlaced composite PAL/NTSC signals to a huge, fixed resolution, RGB display complaint. It takes a lot of care and therefor money, so some sets are a lot better at it than others. Some are TERRIBLE at it, and they are going to ruin the image if the source is LD, VHS, or a Super Nintendo. A bad TV will still put edges on everything, it will still murder the color, there will still be delay, and there will still be those weird motion-JPEG-looking scaling artifacts. A bad TV will make even a blue screen from an SD source look bad. SD was just never designed to be cut up into little squares and reduced to hard digital quantification! :)

The two best sets I've seen at handling SD are my XBR960 and my friend's Pioneer plasma. The Pioneer was much better. Neither was perfect. All the problems that exist on the crappiest HDTVs are still there, they are just minimized.
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 Post subject: Re: The Laserdisc Screenshot Thread
PostPosted: 01 Feb 2013, 20:21 
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signofzeta wrote:
So you paused to get Yoda/Luke? It actually looks pretty good then. Digital freeze is pretty aliased and low color depth compared to a running image on most (all?) players. I think it's like 240 lines, 8 bit color.

To get my shots I set an A-B repeat loop for the section I wanted so I could concentrate on shooting without having to mess with the player. I used a shutter speed of 1/40 and that seemed to be best for reducing flicker. I took probably two dozen shots. :)

Tried a few times with running but I often get a little motion-blur, so I purse the player. CAV doesn't have the stepping effect that's produced by the digital freeze but digital freeze is a good feature for CLV Laserdisc owners.
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 Post subject: Re: The Laserdisc Screenshot Thread
PostPosted: 01 Feb 2013, 21:31 
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laserbite34 wrote:
signofzeta wrote:
So you paused to get Yoda/Luke? It actually looks pretty good then. Digital freeze is pretty aliased and low color depth compared to a running image on most (all?) players. I think it's like 240 lines, 8 bit color.

To get my shots I set an A-B repeat loop for the section I wanted so I could concentrate on shooting without having to mess with the player. I used a shutter speed of 1/40 and that seemed to be best for reducing flicker. I took probably two dozen shots. :)

Tried a few times with running but I often get a little motion-blur, so I purse the player. CAV doesn't have the stepping effect that's produced by the digital freeze but digital freeze is a good feature for CLV Laserdisc owners.


Can you adjust shutter speed on your camera?

CAV would be a million times better, but even that isn't quite the same as motion.
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 Post subject: Re: The Laserdisc Screenshot Thread
PostPosted: 02 Feb 2013, 01:14 
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All of my images were also paused from CLV discs with my digital memory LD player.

Would have been nice if they had used digital memory on more of the players.
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 Post subject: Re: The Laserdisc Screenshot Thread
PostPosted: 02 Feb 2013, 01:42 
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Digital freeze on most (except some early Sony players) players is full horizontal resolution, due to the 4x sampling rate at 8-bit resolution, which is enough for consumer gear. Vertical resolution is only one field, or 240 lines, interpolated with the same information on the alternate field so the screen doesn't end up looking like horizontal stripes with black in between. Later players used a more sophisticated interploitation using the line above and below the missing line to create a new line that makes the image look smoother. It only makes the image look smoother and doesn't add any real detail. Only the Pioneer LDV-8000 could display a true 2 field freeze frame on CLV discs. CAV freeze is a true 2 field freeze but has only half the color resolution because a true color frame is 2 full frames or 4 fields - i.e. color is displayed at a rate of 15 fps in the NTSC format. Most consumer Pioneer players with CLV effects can't show every frame towards the end of the disc - it can only show one out of the three encoded at the end of a CLV/CAA extended play disc, and the player chooses the frame randomly. Panasonic's players with CLV effects can show every frame and shows minutes/seconds/frame when in Jog mode. Most CLV discs are encoded with frame numbers like CAV, but only the Pioneer 8000 can access them directly.
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 Post subject: Re: The Laserdisc Screenshot Thread
PostPosted: 02 Feb 2013, 02:16 
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signofzeta wrote:
There are a lot of different TVs out there and a lot of different opinions of what is good, mine is just one of them.

There are also a lot of people who may be perfectly happy with their setups not knowing just how much better things can look and I am happy for them. They are lucky. Sometimes it's fun being a hyper picky gear snob like me, sometimes it's just an expensive night spent alone drooling over great gear because nobody else cares enough to drool over it with you. :)

The problem that I'm describing with composite on most HDTVs...and by "HDTV" I include any type of display technology with a fixed native resolution, regardless of it being "true" or "full" HD (fake distinctions) and regardless of whether its plasma, CRT, LCD, OLED, projected or not, is that the circuit that digitizes SD signals is usually garbage. It's less garbage with YPBPR than it is with composite. The distinction between VHS and LD, which seemed SO significant 20 years ago, it's minor by comparison to the difference between different TV's upscaling circuit. It's not a simple task, converting interlaced composite PAL/NTSC signals to a huge, fixed resolution, RGB display complaint. It takes a lot of care and therefor money, so some sets are a lot better at it than others. Some are TERRIBLE at it, and they are going to ruin the image if the source is LD, VHS, or a Super Nintendo. A bad TV will still put edges on everything, it will still murder the color, there will still be delay, and there will still be those weird motion-JPEG-looking scaling artifacts. A bad TV will make even a blue screen from an SD source look bad. SD was just never designed to be cut up into little squares and reduced to hard digital quantification! :)

The two best sets I've seen at handling SD are my XBR960 and my friend's Pioneer plasma. The Pioneer was much better. Neither was perfect. All the problems that exist on the crappiest HDTVs are still there, they are just minimized.

Thanks for taking the time for typing up that well written post. :thumbup:

To be honest with you, believe it or not, but I am pretty picky when it comes to picture quality as well. You wouldn't believe how many times I have had to adjust the picture settings for when I watch HD channels or Blu-Rays on my living room 55" LED HD TV. I have used THX calibration software to optimize the settings, but I still sometimes find ringing and edge enhancement or other minor annoyances on some Blu-Ray movies I watch which generally get good reviews so I know its not the transfer itself when this happens..

Thanks for the info on the composite signals, but what surprises me is that I've often heard that composite is the best method for hooking up your Laserdisc player to any form of TV (LCD, Plasma, CRT) because more often then not, its the actual TV itself that has the better comb filter which would be taken advantage of with composite. My HD TV and my Laserdisc player also has S-Video outputs as well but I have heard that S-Video doesn't come recommended because of the often weak outdated comb filter that most Laserdisc players have installed which would be used if you connect the player using S-Video, correct?

Also with all those symptoms you mentioned in regards to the HDTV being proof that its destroying the LD image, the only one I've noticed is some occasional edge enhancement around people or objects, but even that doesn't become much of a problem when I turn down the sharpness setting on my HDTV's menu. Other then that, colours seem accurate for the most part (with some exceptions), I get no J-PEG arfacting, and I certainly get no video or audio delay if that's what you mean by "delay"? I do see some standardized analog video noise in the background of all old or new Laserdiscs, but it all varies in degree about how the transfer is handled, and even if it is an older transfer with heavy noise, setting my HD TV's DNR setting to 'low' often fixes that although I don't like to use any DNR by using the player itself (High quality circuit) or my display if I can help it, so generally its always turned to 'off' which extracts the most detail out of the image. I never use any DNR for DVD or Blu-Ray either, its always used as a last resort. As for the VHS and Laserdisc distinction, well like I said, VHS just looks like crappy old VHS. It even looked bad on my CRT although it is a lot worse on my LCD admittedly, however from the Laserdiscs I have played, the strong transfer like Men in Black for instance, look far closer to composite-DVD quality level then to anything near VHS which is just unwatchable. I hate VHS.

Might I add, the sound even from just using my LCD's speakers, is great too...
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 Post subject: Re: The Laserdisc Screenshot Thread
PostPosted: 02 Feb 2013, 04:41 
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signofzeta wrote:

Can you adjust shutter speed on your camera?

CAV would be a million times better, but even that isn't quite the same as motion.

Yeah I can adjust shutter speed.
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 Post subject: Re: The Laserdisc Screenshot Thread
PostPosted: 02 Feb 2013, 09:24 
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laserbite34 wrote:
signofzeta wrote:

Can you adjust shutter speed on your camera?

CAV would be a million times better, but even that isn't quite the same as motion.

Yeah I can adjust shutter speed.


Try speeds slightly above and slightly below 1/60 and maybe you can dial out the flicker with motion shots. I used 1/40, but my display is...I'm not sure what the refresh actually is. Its not an average CRT.

I like this thread because, even though these photos aren't perfect, its about 1000x more useful than digital screen captures that don't represent anything real world.
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 Post subject: Re: The Laserdisc Screenshot Thread
PostPosted: 02 Feb 2013, 09:52 
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signofzeta wrote:

Try speeds slightly above and slightly below 1/60 and maybe you can dial out the flicker with motion shots. I used 1/40, but my display is...I'm not sure what the refresh actually is. Its not an average CRT.

I like this thread because, even though these photos aren't perfect, its about 1000x more useful than digital screen captures that don't represent anything real world.


You mean the roll-bars on the CRT! I can see them on the camera clear as day! :lol:

On the LCD Sony I use for pc I don't see any roll-bars registering on the camera.

And same thing goes for the LCD video projector no visible roll-bars. :think: I wonder how most get on with their CRT video projector?

I'll look at the speed settings and do some trail and error snap shots later on. Cheers. :)
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 Post subject: Re: The Laserdisc Screenshot Thread
PostPosted: 02 Feb 2013, 17:30 
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I'm gonna have to go out and buy a digital camera after work and take some screens from my LCD.

I took a few with my tablet but; they're not that great.
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 Post subject: Re: The Laserdisc Screenshot Thread
PostPosted: 02 Feb 2013, 18:58 
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laserbite34 wrote:
signofzeta wrote:

Try speeds slightly above and slightly below 1/60 and maybe you can dial out the flicker with motion shots. I used 1/40, but my display is...I'm not sure what the refresh actually is. Its not an average CRT.

I like this thread because, even though these photos aren't perfect, its about 1000x more useful than digital screen captures that don't represent anything real world.


You mean the roll-bars on the CRT! I can see them on the camera clear as day! :lol:

On the LCD Sony I use for pc I don't see any roll-bars registering on the camera.

And same thing goes for the LCD video projector no visible roll-bars. :think: I wonder how most get on with their CRT video projector?

I'll look at the speed settings and do some trail and error snap shots later on. Cheers. :)


Flat panel displays don't have roll bars when photographed or when captured on video because each frame is displayed all at once, like a film-based motion picture, then the next frame is displayed all at once, etc... On every CRT based television, the image is formed by a single spot of light moving down the screen - we only see a full image and not the single dot of light because our vision is "slow" and the image persists in our mind for a few microseconds, allowing us to see the entire image as if it was displayed all at once - even progressive scan CRT's display the image by using a single point of light that paints the image on the screen as the beam moves from left to right, then back to the left again but dropped down the space of a single line.
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 Post subject: Re: The Laserdisc Screenshot Thread
PostPosted: 03 Feb 2013, 01:52 
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disclord wrote:
laserbite34 wrote:
signofzeta wrote:

Try speeds slightly above and slightly below 1/60 and maybe you can dial out the flicker with motion shots. I used 1/40, but my display is...I'm not sure what the refresh actually is. Its not an average CRT.

I like this thread because, even though these photos aren't perfect, its about 1000x more useful than digital screen captures that don't represent anything real world.


You mean the roll-bars on the CRT! I can see them on the camera clear as day! :lol:

On the LCD Sony I use for pc I don't see any roll-bars registering on the camera.

And same thing goes for the LCD video projector no visible roll-bars. :think: I wonder how most get on with their CRT video projector?

I'll look at the speed settings and do some trail and error snap shots later on. Cheers. :)


Flat panel displays don't have roll bars when photographed or when captured on video because each frame is displayed all at once, like a film-based motion picture, then the next frame is displayed all at once, etc... On every CRT based television, the image is formed by a single spot of light moving down the screen - we only see a full image and not the single dot of light because our vision is "slow" and the image persists in our mind for a few microseconds, allowing us to see the entire image as if it was displayed all at once - even progressive scan CRT's display the image by using a single point of light that paints the image on the screen as the beam moves from left to right, then back to the left again but dropped down the space of a single line.


I see.

And with some PAL tv that don't have NTSC converter, one will see the image rolling! But wave you're hand in front of you're eyes with fingers spread that kinder acts like shutter blade on projector or strobe effect and the image starts to look stable for a few seconds unless you can keep the waving effect constant :lol: or maybe a fan placed in front of you and set the speed so that it keeps the image stable. :mrgreen:
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 Post subject: Re: The Laserdisc Screenshot Thread
PostPosted: 03 Feb 2013, 02:03 
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dewdude wrote:
I'm gonna have to go out and buy a digital camera after work and take some screens from my LCD.

I took a few with my tablet but; they're not that great.

:clap:

How big is your LCD display out of interest?
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 Post subject: Re: The Laserdisc Screenshot Thread
PostPosted: 03 Feb 2013, 17:22 
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Roll bars? OH! scan lines! You get them with CRT because the TV scanrate isn't in sync with camera.

The one I have is a 46 inch Dynex. I bought it December of 2011, open box, for 450. Non led, 60hz. I think it'd been sitting in the back of the store for months. No idea why no one bought it. They let me hook my laptop up to it, and for being a budget TV, the panel is outstanding. The colors are really vivid, contrast is outstanding. Running it at it's native 1080p is a dream. AUOptronics made the panel, and Samsung quickly sued them for stealing pixel size, shape, and placement. Pretty sure it's an IPS panel too. Bought it based on it's 1080p performance. Analog input is ugly. The ADC is just, ugly. Basically it's like I bought a $400 lcd panel in a plastic box with absolute bare basic everything else. Laserdiscs directly in to this thing are just about unwatchable.

But, the Onkyos analog inputs are MUCH higher quality than the TV, even with it's dirt basic comb filter. The Marvell chip takes it all to 1080p, with zooming and aspect correction, noise reduction, edge enhancement, color controls, and inverse telecine with film detection and 24hz output. In fact, anything except the laptop runs through it. I set my cable box to the hard-to-find native resolution output since it lacks dedicated 1080p output, and 720p up to 1080I is really ugly.

Theres also a 70" Sharp Aquos Quattron in the house, but I don't use it that much.
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 Post subject: Re: The Laserdisc Screenshot Thread
PostPosted: 03 Feb 2013, 22:00 
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I while back I bought a nice collection from a couple who I think got it from the original owner for free. The player they had in the lot was an LD-W1 and having never seen one before I wanted to make sure it worked before taking it on. At the time I had never seen an LD-W1 in action before. Now I know they are nearly milspec inside compared to my cheap CLD series stuff.

So anyway, they had the player hooked up to this massive screen, I don't know, at least 60". Certainly way bigger than anything I have in the house. They ran something on it, I don't remember, some dark action movie. It was a letterboxed LD and they had the screen running in stretched mode (rather than zoom). It look SOOOOO BAAAAAD I can't even describe it. They were running some kind of hyper vivid calibration so in addition to everything being warped to hell from the aspect ratio being set wrong, the contrast was insane and the colors all blown out and super red, which amplified all the analog noise inherent to LD. Then of course there is the fact that the TV was friggn enormous in general, so all the problems were more obvious.

I gladly bought the lot for a good price and went home, but I can't help but wonder what they were thinking. They either thought that I was a blind idiot that couldn't tell how horrendous LD looked, or they must have just thought "That was the 90s, all video looked like crap back then. He must be a collector like us" (they collected Barbie crap).

This is not true. NOTHING looked that bad in the 90s. Even if you had an S104 going through a Sears VCR to make an RF signal and then ran it through a KMart brand 16" TV with a globular screen and crappy mono speaker you couldn't turn up past %50 without hearing distortion, you would still have a VASTLY superior viewing experience than this. This was a very solid player hooked up to what was (I think) a very nice TV, but the end result was utter crap. It doesn't matter how good your equipment is if its mismatched and badly set up.

Its kind of sad how bad HDTVs can make SD stuff look. People have this warped perception of what the quality of LD is. They think, "Of course it looks bad, its 1970s technology" but its not supposed to look THAT BAD. The TVs ruin it.
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 Post subject: Re: The Laserdisc Screenshot Thread
PostPosted: 04 Feb 2013, 01:04 
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That's true the sync is not the same. The video mode on the camera has PAL and NTSC and I think I saw a 30 frame rate speed on it? But I have to look all the way though its sub menu tools for other settings.

I find the S mode Shutter Speed with (ISO AUTO 800) works for most screen captures off the CRT sometimes if its way too bright I switch to (ISO AUTO 400) but I mostly use (AUTO 800).

If I where to use for LCD video projector I'll use SP mode Smile and Shoot or Landscape and hope it doesn't get too over-bright if it does I'll find another mode to capture as near close as possible. No flicker issue with projector otherwise I'll be seeing it on the camera before taking a picture.
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 Post subject: Re: The Laserdisc Screenshot Thread
PostPosted: 04 Feb 2013, 01:34 
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It's not that difficult or expensive for manufacturers to make an HD television that performs well with SD material - there are numerous chip solutions available for 3D comb filtering and scaiing that provide superb performance, and they are not expensive either. The problem is companies put all the money into useless features like SRS or Dolby Pro-Logic and other worthless audio options and other things that don't contribute to the actual performance of the set but that they feel are absolutely necessary to make the set attractive to consumers.

It's like how, instead of concentrating on getting the best performance out of all LaserDisc players, Pioneer put the performance in only the high end players and the rest got stupid, useless features like Karaoke and 5-disc changers, while providing mediocre performance. I mean, face it, the VAST majority of LaserDisc players suck.
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 Post subject: Re: The Laserdisc Screenshot Thread
PostPosted: 04 Feb 2013, 02:11 
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Here's Toy Story: Deluxe Edition (1995) [8847 CS] projected onto a screen in my backyard, being played on a DVL-700 through a Canon LV-X2 LCD projector for movie night in my backyard during the summer

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 Post subject: Re: The Laserdisc Screenshot Thread
PostPosted: 04 Feb 2013, 02:16 
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Thanks for those stories dewdude & signofzeta.

I can certainly understand that on giant screen HD TVs like a 46", my 55" LED display I have hooked up in my living room, and obviously sets that are 60" and above would make a old analog format like LD look like total crap. Hell my 55" blows up any microscopic picture flaws in SD & HD broadcasts, compressed torrents and DVDs, so I hate to think what LD would look like on that. However even then, despite HD TVs in general these days lacking care for analog inputs, I have to say that I just don't see these issues you guys talk about viewing Laserdiscs with my bedroom 32" LCD. Granted my picture settings are stabilized and not out of whack with sharpness, contrast, colour, brightness and DNR all blown out the wazoo which would even make Blu-Ray look bad, plus I tend to stick with later released strong transfers like Goldeneye, Men in Black, Star Wars Episode 1, but even then old transfers from the early 80's (even though they show there age) are still more then watchable to me. My 32" has many picture enhancement features (although I always keep the DNR off for both DVD and Laserdisc playback), I sit about 6 feet away and I don't use the zoom feature because well my HD TV display doesn't have any zoom options. Only 2 aspect ratio modes to choose from which are obviously 4:3 or 16:9, and personally I'll take a ever so slightly stretched image over a box with black bars on all sides of the image (top, bottom, left and right.) Hell I have said this a few times already on other threads, but watching Men in Black a few nights ago on LD on my 32" was almost DVD quality. It was sharp, had well saturated colours, solid blacks and most of all had good detail overall.

Plus wouldn't zooming in on the picture just make Laserdisc look worse anyway? making the flaws in the source even more obvious?
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