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 Post subject: Re: The Laserdisc Screenshot Thread
PostPosted: 07 Jul 2014, 18:12 
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I took a capture from the Criterion DVD of Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas for comparison

LD:
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DVD:
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Skin tones certainly differs and DVD is generally brighter, but I think it mainly has to do with the settings on my recorder. Detail is better on the DVD but not by a whole lot. And the Laserdisc shows slightly more in the upper side of the picture but it was shot on super 35 so I'm not sure which one is right. Overall, not much difference and certainly a great Laserdisc.
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 Post subject: Re: The Laserdisc Screenshot Thread
PostPosted: 08 Jul 2014, 02:32 
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@nissling
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Great work on your shots! Must've been some work. So far you seem to have the best Matrix shots from LD imo. I agree that your r7g setup might need a slight touch of brightness, but I wouldn't want to screw up the color.

Actually found a Matrix DVD. Original 1999 R1 U.S. release. Extremely common in U.S. and can be found for pennies. I've taken time to take a couple snaps with VLC without adjusting picture (straight from the encrypted disc). They may be considered raw VOB stills, but I did use IVTC film.

Original R1 DVD
taken down

Laserdisc (CLD-R7G from nissling)
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Original R1 DVD
taken down

Laserdisc (CLD-R7G from nissling)
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Original R1 DVD
taken down

Laserdisc (CLD-R7G from nissling)
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The lobby scene on DVD holds up fine (didn't notice any mpeg artifacts). I just read a review mentioning Matrix Reloaded suffers from mpeg artifacts on DVD when Neo does his 'Superman' thing :eh: . Haven't noticed any problems on this DVD.

Apparently some forum members don't know what they're talking about when it comes to the Matrix. They say the U.S. DVD R1 doesn't look the same as the LD or R4 DVD. But this is clearly not the case! I think it is clear to say, the original U.S. DVD R1 does in fact have the identical tranfer of the LD and R4 DVD.

Only advantage I've heard about the R4 DVD, is it's the uncut version of the Matrix. I can't prove that as I don't have the R4 DVD...

Think this clearly sums up what versions to get of the Matrix. If you want the authentic transfer before it was messed with, the original R1 U.S. DVD, R4 DVD, or LD are definite versions to get. Otherwise get the bluray if you like the white crush and altered tint.

Personally wouldn't mind having the LD. It's composite, but my line doubler certainly looks very colorful and I don't trust the 4:2:0 chroma sampling on DVD. But yeah, the DVD does look fine and I couldn't notice any problems with it. Actually, the lobby capture does like it's better contrasted and more dynamic on your LD shot, despite the brightness being low (and the colors are somewhat better in your other shots). Yeah I don't really trust the DVD...

I think this is a pretty good demonstration of the Matrix film being altered.


Last edited by Guest on 13 Aug 2014, 10:02, edited 4 times in total.
  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Laserdisc Screenshot Thread
PostPosted: 08 Jul 2014, 05:38 
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nissling wrote:
Tinypic only allows 1600*900 so they downscaled it.

I find it strange how some complain about white and black crushes and mpeg-compression on DVD and Blu-Ray but never about video noise, dot-crawl, rainbowing, smearing etc. on Laserdisc.

true, but lets also remember, if you have a better LD player you won't have half or more of these issues.
with DVD better players won't always remove these issues.
I don't have a bluray so can't say.

with the best of gear you can have LD look about 98% like DVD, it may not come in at all the tech jargon but to my eyes
it always looked very close when I had a CRT.

now that I have an LCD, the last 20 or do DVDs look like crap :silent:
I see more artifacts and issues but the LD looks pretty much the same as before, and I have older LD players now :think:

lets watch more films :thumbup: i'm getting back to the cars that ate paris on DVD :wave:

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 Post subject: Re: The Laserdisc Screenshot Thread
PostPosted: 08 Jul 2014, 06:32 
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OK my turn, DVD vs, HD DVD. Please excuse the armature camera skills.

DVD
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HD DVD
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DVD
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HD DVD
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I like the color of the original better but the Dolby TrueHD of the HD DVD sounds pretty good. Maybe some day If I ever find one at a decent price I can compare the sound of the LD with the HD DVD.
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 Post subject: Re: The Laserdisc Screenshot Thread
PostPosted: 08 Jul 2014, 07:38 
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The hd-dvd looks the same as bluray... I hear the only HD version with the original look, is only available on TV services.

The altered print is also odd, because the fridge with red magnets appear actually darker.
  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Laserdisc Screenshot Thread
PostPosted: 08 Jul 2014, 08:34 
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The R7G is a very nice player, indeed!

Makes sense that the Matrix used the same transfer, they were done at about the same time. Does take a bit of the mythicalness off the LD though...

In general most of the late LD's are probably from the same D1 masters that (non-anamorphic) DVD's came from. Disney was rather guilty of that, plastering "widescreen" on non-anamorphic disks.
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 Post subject: Re: The Laserdisc Screenshot Thread
PostPosted: 08 Jul 2014, 11:57 
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rein-o: Of course there are huge differences between different Laserdisc players, but the noise level is still a fact and colors aren't anywhere near as good on LD as they are on DVD (technically). And I find it funny how some people can complain about some visible white crush in a shot on a Blu-Ray (that lasts barely five seconds) while they don't mention anything about the excessive noise on the Laserdisc of the same film. That's sort of ironic imo.

happycube: The R7G is a nice and compact player that gives good bang for the buck but I would actually rather have a CLD-97 in my set up.

Either way, here are some captures from the Scandinavian DVD (trilogy box set, released in 2006).

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The DVD started skipping so I couldn't get all the captures. Either way, I say this one feels sharper and more textured than the R1 DVD. Certainly much better than the Laserdisc.

More Blu-Ray captures (downscaled through tinypic).

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Image

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I know what you guys think about the Blu-Ray but for me, it's easily the way to go. I really love the cooler look and the Laserdisc or any of the DVDs can't touch its textures. Watching the Blu-Ray is almost like watching a new film to me. Compare the shots with Morpheus for instance. It looks absolutely gorgeous on Blu-Ray imo while the step between the Laserdisc and DVDs isn't anywhere near as big.
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 Post subject: Re: The Laserdisc Screenshot Thread
PostPosted: 08 Jul 2014, 14:48 
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There's no point in complaining about the noise on LaserDisc because it's appropriate given the format's age and analog lineage. White crush and arbitrary changes in color timing, however, denotes a poor master which is inexcusable on a format like DVD and especially Blu-ray, both of which are technically superior.
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 Post subject: Re: The Laserdisc Screenshot Thread
PostPosted: 08 Jul 2014, 14:54 
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LD is an old format, yes, but The Matrix was released when it was very mature. On the other hand Blu-Ray and HD-DVD were both very young in 2006 and 2007. Still, very fascinating how some are complaining so much about relatively small issues on one format but are very quiet about the issues on another format (noise is much more irritating than macroblocking imo). It's like someone would complain about SACD because of a master on format but listens to cassette tapes all the times and never says a word about the bad quality.
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 Post subject: Re: The Laserdisc Screenshot Thread
PostPosted: 08 Jul 2014, 16:08 
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Cassette tape is not bad quality (it can, but it doesn't have to be)
Just like an SACD player can be very bad (even with a good mastered SACD disc)
At all times, for every medium, the equipment can be good or bad or something in the middle. But it's always a combination of all equipment en connections.

A bad master is a bad master.
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 Post subject: Re: The Laserdisc Screenshot Thread
PostPosted: 08 Jul 2014, 16:37 
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Of course the equipment matters, but I hope you see my point? Someone complains about a master on Blu-Ray because of a minor issue but don't mention anything bad about the Laserdisc and instead pretend that it's perfect.
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 Post subject: Re: The Laserdisc Screenshot Thread
PostPosted: 08 Jul 2014, 16:39 
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There are definitely cognitive biases here, and that really shouldn't be surprising. For one thing, the Matrix LD is far far larger than the DVD, and far more expensive. Even if the LD was actually better, the DVD would probably be the saner choice.

It's a pity that so much Blu-Ray media doesn't live up to what the format can actually do - but BD's capabilities are so far beyond LD - that's 30 years of tech development for you. Yes, LD's flaws can be worked around to a degree but that's a lot of effort compared to a BD player which is basically plug and play... as long as the HDCP encryption doesn't frtiz out ;)

One would be amazed to see how many DVD players are plugged into HDTV's via composite, and not tuned for 16:9 properly. One of my friends has one, and since it's a low end model the comb filter is rather rubbish and it shows. The thing is - that'll be fixed when I bring in a component cable I got at a thrift. If it was an LD setup, I'd have to go looking for a DVD recorder or somesuch, and someone who doesn't know about all that would have a hard time making LD look good on that TV.

(My next post on this thread will actually have screenshots :) edit: not related to the matrix ld, which I don't have...)


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 Post subject: Re: The Laserdisc Screenshot Thread
PostPosted: 08 Jul 2014, 17:11 
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Go ahead and post them anytime! It's always interesting to see what other's captures look like.

Does anyone here have any requests? I can provide captures from most (if not every) NTSC LD in my collection.
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 Post subject: Re: The Laserdisc Screenshot Thread
PostPosted: 08 Jul 2014, 17:28 
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nissling wrote:
rein-o: Of course there are huge differences between different Laserdisc players, but the noise level is still a fact and colors aren't anywhere near as good on LD as they are on DVD (technically). And I find it funny how some people can complain about some visible white crush in a shot on a Blu-Ray (that lasts barely five seconds) while they don't mention anything about the excessive noise on the Laserdisc of the same film. That's sort of ironic imo.


yes, I agree but as hauntmedoitagain posted, these issue with LD are from the format not the mastering.
I've had LD since 1989 and love it, but then again I do know when I see something better.
bluray is better, no smear, no rainbow etc.
but the mastering is not where it should be if you see that issue of the white on the lights of the train.
I don't own bluray and my last criterion DVD purchase has the combo which
i'm upset about as I don't even want to buy into the format at all.

but when I see something like this about the matrix, these are issues that someone either found or just noticed, but what other
films etc have these issues to get 4K transfers and such.

just like my local art house theater, they had the trailer for hard days night, there was what looked like chroma noise in the background
for this new 4K transfer/trailer, what's that about, it should be perfect, and i'm not talking about film grain i'm talking about
bouncing noise that shouldn't have been there...

I think that's what most are upset about, we have come so far with technology and are just dropping the ball on it.
get it together and start releasing the stuff correctly.
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 Post subject: Re: The Laserdisc Screenshot Thread
PostPosted: 08 Jul 2014, 17:40 
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There are limitations on LD for sure, but have you even seen what The Matrix looks like on Laserdisc (in live action) and compared to other late titles? In comparison, I'd say it's very underwhelming and not a very good looking title. So in relation to that, people are complaining about some very small issues on the Blu-Ray but never mention ANYTHING bad about the problematic Laserdisc (because it has a problematic transfer/master and is certainly not only due to the format). Keeping in mind how expensive the LD is today, you can get a much better late Japanese release (Fight Club, Star Wars, Tarzan etc.) for the same amount.
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 Post subject: Re: The Laserdisc Screenshot Thread
PostPosted: 08 Jul 2014, 17:43 
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I don't own the matrix, I think it's a horrible film, but that's another story.
as for late releases, I've had xmen, I own late releases like Excalibur and Doc Savage and more.
they still have issues but look best with higher end players, not perfect but for the format they are perfect, or as good as they will ever get ;)

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 Post subject: Re: The Laserdisc Screenshot Thread
PostPosted: 08 Jul 2014, 17:52 
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Try out watching The Matrix on LD and you know exactly what I'm saying. It's far, and I mean FAR from being a perfect Laserdisc. I'm fully aware of that LDs are more noisy than DVDs but I'm not stupid. It isn't in the league of any of the other late LDs (with possible exception for The Blair Witch Project). Anyone who have seen it knows it.


Last edited by nissling on 08 Jul 2014, 18:09, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: The Laserdisc Screenshot Thread
PostPosted: 08 Jul 2014, 18:02 
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bguzman wrote:
OK my turn, DVD vs, HD DVD. Please excuse the armature camera skills.

DVD
Image

HD DVD
Image

DVD
Image

HD DVD
Image

I like the color of the original better but the Dolby TrueHD of the HD DVD sounds pretty good. Maybe some day If I ever find one at a decent price I can compare the sound of the LD with the HD DVD.

That doesn't surprise me its the same issue on HD-DVD with train lights. The colour of Neo's face on HD-DVD looks like he's on ship and getting a bit, seasick green? :lol:

Born on the Fourth of July (1989) has issues on HD-DVD (expect the laserdisc and DVD). The colours are boasted and result in terrible enhancement. Personally I don't believe they use new transfers rather they use, old-transfers and tamper with the settings on the computer to fool us all.

I'll do a few laserdisc vs HD-DVD later in the night.
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 Post subject: Re: The Laserdisc Screenshot Thread
PostPosted: 08 Jul 2014, 18:54 
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The DVD is about near to the laserdisc.

Image

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Laserdisc

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HD-DVD

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 Post subject: Re: The Laserdisc Screenshot Thread
PostPosted: 08 Jul 2014, 19:46 
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nissling wrote:
Of course the equipment matters, but I hope you see my point? Someone complains about a master on Blu-Ray because of a minor issue but don't mention anything bad about the Laserdisc and instead pretend that it's perfect.


It's got nothing to do with the superiority of any format! That's totally not the point. If Bluray was lossless 4k video and lossless 192khz audio, great. But the fact of the matter is, the original film is being tampered with, and people that want the one and only original Matrix (or all the other movies altered), get ripped off because they don't mention the alteration. I spent about $200.00 on the uncut German imports of Evil Dead 2 and 3 (Army of Darkness), and I got $hitty zoomed in picture with the top and bottom chopped off. I personally, would rather spend $1000.00 on laserdisc stuff, and pay a random guy $5.00 to burn me a copy of each bluray film I want. Not that I've pirated anything but that's just my opinion (and I haven't bought any blurays since anyway).

I disagree with everyone that says DVD is better. I don't care how much noise you've seen on laserdisc. I know anyone who cares enough to get the most out of composite, will say that it's in fact possible to have RGB like quality out of composite without NR; and I'm not just saying that because I feel like it. Unless I'm reading text over a blank background, I think DVD is a poor choice for a video format; unless you're someone who likes grinding metal with worn out tires while driving. Oh brother :roll: . I mean yeah, we just compared the Matrix, and I honestly think the Matrix film is DVDs saving grace; since it is the Matrix after all.

@nissling
That is very interesting you have a 2006 Trilogy box set of Matrix DVD. I can't believe it's from 2006 and it has the original print. Is it uncut? Would be interesting to compare the bitrate of your 2006 Trilogy Box set, to the original DVD. Heck maybe I'll post results of my R1 DVD (only if I get around to it).
  
 
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