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Is technically better vs. personal pref. hard to comprehend?
https://forum.lddb.com/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=784		 Page 2 of 5
Author:  remington [ 16 Feb 2012, 19:42 ]
Post subject:  Re: Is technically better vs. personal pref. hard to compreh
naiaru wrote:
.


Well digital downloads are crap, the compression rates are just way too high. That's science.

You can say that you'd ignore any case where a LaserDisc is worse than a DVD or Blu-ray (or digital download, apparently), but then why bother with this thread? You've already made up your mind.

"Ignore any case" is a bit strong. I watch dvd sometimes and I can't say that it is always sub-par. I just prefer laserdisc in general as most fans of the format do. I thank you for all your feedback. I think both of us can see that we are rarely if ever influencing one another.
Author:  mlcsmith [ 16 Feb 2012, 20:41 ]
Post subject:  Re: Is technically better vs. personal pref. hard to compreh
naiaru wrote:
Well digital downloads are crap, the compression rates are just way too high. That's science.

You can say that you'd ignore any case where a LaserDisc is worse than a DVD or Blu-ray (or digital download, apparently), but then why bother with this thread? You've already made up your mind.


A man is not an island. It feels good to find like minded people. Some people just seem to find the word "best" as an absolute and not something dependent on context. What I find best for me might not be considered the best for someone else. The best picture and sound to me is the one that I enjoy most, not the one with the highest bit rate.
Author:  remington [ 16 Feb 2012, 21:18 ]
Post subject:  Re: Is technically better vs. personal pref. hard to compreh
I agree with that. That's what I've been saying all along.
Author:  naiaru [ 17 Feb 2012, 02:32 ]
Post subject:  Re: Is technically better vs. personal pref. hard to compreh
If the thread was about "who agrees that science is irrelevant and a demonstrably worse picture in all objective categories can be better if it's delivered in a format you find more appealing?" that would be one thing. But the topic was "You play a blu ray disc for me, you then play a laserdisc for me on the same system. I'm told by you that the audio on the blu ray disc is superior and you outline all the technical reasons why that is so. I tell you I like the sound of the laserdisc better. Is that concept hard to comprehend and WHY?" You may have a soft spot for this argument because it's in terms you like, but allow me to use the same format to argue another point.

"you show me a scientific demonstration proving that the sun is under no control of an animate life form, you then show me ancient tablets demonstrating that the sun is under the control of Ra the sun god. I'm told by you that science is superior and you outline all the technical reasons why that is so. I tell you I like the sound of Ra the sun god better. Is that concept hard to comprehend and WHY?"\

Also, if this were a private conversation between people who are after LD for purely nostalgic reasons as opposed to actual attempts to watch something with the best possible PQ you can obtain, that would be one thing. But since anyone can see this, I don't want to promote the idea that LaserDisc enthusiasts are more interested in their feelings for the format rather than whether or not the format offers something tangible other formats do not, just as I'd rather people didn't promote Ra the sun god over science.
Author:  mlcsmith [ 17 Feb 2012, 03:20 ]
Post subject:  Re: Is technically better vs. personal pref. hard to compreh
I honestly believe that often science is overrated. People feel like if they rest on scientific fact that they're absolutely right. How often are scientific facts often disproved or reevaluated, the best scientists in the world once thought that the universe revolved around us. At least religion is usually stable, it tends to stick to the same points of argument. Why not Ra? Especially if I can get Kurt Russell and James Spader on my team.

Hang on, let's go this angle: who'd win in a fight, superman or professor x? I'm a marvel man so I'm goin with the professor psychically convincing superman to beat himself up.
Author:  naiaru [ 17 Feb 2012, 03:38 ]
Post subject:  Re: Is technically better vs. personal pref. hard to compreh
mlcsmith wrote:
I honestly believe that often science is overrated. People feel like if they rest on scientific fact that they're absolutely right. How often are scientific facts often disproved or reevaluated, the best scientists in the world once thought that the universe revolved around us. At least religion is usually stable, it tends to stick to the same points of argument. Why not Ra? Especially if I can get Kurt Russell and James Spader on my team.

Hang on, let's go this angle: who'd win in a fight, superman or professor x? I'm a marvel man so I'm goin with the professor psychically convincing superman to beat himself up.

The point wasn't science vs religion. My point was that remington's argument only sounds good when he's talking about something you like (LaserDisc), but is silly when it's used for things you don't particularly care about (Ra the sun god). I could've replaced science vs Ra, with astronomy vs astrology, brownies vs mud, etc. and my point would've been the same. Also, being steady isn't being right.
Author:  Guest [ 17 Feb 2012, 04:51 ]
Post subject:  Re: Is technically better vs. personal pref. hard to compreh
after watching LD, I realized how little I care about PQ. LD looks like garbage, but you can still see what's going on and nothing is ever like "wait what was that, I couldn't catch it because the PQ was so bad"
Author:  naiaru [ 17 Feb 2012, 05:01 ]
Post subject:  Re: Is technically better vs. personal pref. hard to compreh
gbpxl wrote:
after watching LD, I realized how little I care about PQ. LD looks like garbage, but you can still see what's going on and nothing is ever like "wait what was that, I couldn't catch it because the PQ was so bad"

I don't know what you're doing to make LD look like garbage. Even when LaserDisc loses out to DVD, it's rarely ever by all that much. Take this comparison of A Christmas Story, for example. The movie definately has the resources behind it to get a DVD taken to the theoretical limits of DVD.

I don't know how exactly you're set up, but you might want to try reading the Watching LaserDisc in the Digital Age article.
Author:  Guest [ 17 Feb 2012, 15:54 ]
Post subject:  Re: Is technically better vs. personal pref. hard to compreh
naiaru wrote:
gbpxl wrote:
after watching LD, I realized how little I care about PQ. LD looks like garbage, but you can still see what's going on and nothing is ever like "wait what was that, I couldn't catch it because the PQ was so bad"

I don't know what you're doing to make LD look like garbage. Even when LaserDisc loses out to DVD, it's rarely ever by all that much. Take this comparison of A Christmas Story, for example. The movie definately has the resources behind it to get a DVD taken to the theoretical limits of DVD.

I don't know how exactly you're set up, but you might want to try reading the Watching LaserDisc in the Digital Age article.


I read both articles already. My setup is a V2200, composite video cable, and an 32" LCD LG with the picture usually zoomed so that the picture's edges meet my screen's edges. I know that you lose quality when zooming in, but it's not enjoyable to watch it unzoomed on a 16:9 display.

I also know that CRT displays are best, I just don't want to spend the extra money
Author:  remington [ 17 Feb 2012, 17:19 ]
Post subject:  Re: Is technically better vs. personal pref. hard to compreh
benmbe wrote:
Good afternoon Remington,

Your quote;
Words are to be used contextually, and "feelings" is no exception. There are those who like laserdisc, period, no matter what. Any and all "science" can become irrelevant to those who simply like something for what it is.

I TOTALLY SECOND THAT! !

Good reading
:thumbup:

Good to see you on board. Thanks.
Author:  naiaru [ 17 Feb 2012, 18:58 ]
Post subject:  Re: Is technically better vs. personal pref. hard to compreh
gbpxl wrote:
naiaru wrote:
gbpxl wrote:
after watching LD, I realized how little I care about PQ. LD looks like garbage, but you can still see what's going on and nothing is ever like "wait what was that, I couldn't catch it because the PQ was so bad"

I don't know what you're doing to make LD look like garbage. Even when LaserDisc loses out to DVD, it's rarely ever by all that much. Take this comparison of A Christmas Story, for example. The movie definately has the resources behind it to get a DVD taken to the theoretical limits of DVD.

I don't know how exactly you're set up, but you might want to try reading the Watching LaserDisc in the Digital Age article.


I read both articles already. My setup is a V2200, composite video cable, and an 32" LCD LG with the picture usually zoomed so that the picture's edges meet my screen's edges. I know that you lose quality when zooming in, but it's not enjoyable to watch it unzoomed on a 16:9 display.

I also know that CRT displays are best, I just don't want to spend the extra money


Well, I have a LD-V2200 and you'd definitely get better results with a new player. Also, people sometimes underestimate the need to have a good scaler, but it truly can make all the difference. Not to mention that most digital displays will overscan on SD signals, so you lose 5% of the image (its usually 5% overscan) and it has the even worse side effect of requiring 5% more scaling.

And I wouldn't worry too much about the CRT thing. I'm watching LD on an IPS CCFL LCD TV and it looks great.
Author:  mlcsmith [ 17 Feb 2012, 19:56 ]
Post subject:  Re: Is technically better vs. personal pref. hard to compreh
naiaru wrote:
The point wasn't science vs religion. My point was that remington's argument only sounds good when he's talking about something you like (LaserDisc), but is silly when it's used for things you don't particularly care about (Ra the sun god). I could've replaced science vs Ra, with astronomy vs astrology, brownies vs mud, etc. and my point would've been the same. Also, being steady isn't being right.


You're still saying or at least I'm reading your comment as though there's an absolute truth for everybody. Grass is green, sky is blue, water is wet. Someone can always tell us what is truly the right answer. I don't get it. It ignores subjectivity.

Additionally you didn't pick a side DC or Marvel, you seem like a superman fan.
Author:  naiaru [ 17 Feb 2012, 20:42 ]
Post subject:  Re: Is technically better vs. personal pref. hard to compreh
mlcsmith wrote:
naiaru wrote:
The point wasn't science vs religion. My point was that remington's argument only sounds good when he's talking about something you like (LaserDisc), but is silly when it's used for things you don't particularly care about (Ra the sun god). I could've replaced science vs Ra, with astronomy vs astrology, brownies vs mud, etc. and my point would've been the same. Also, being steady isn't being right.


You're still saying or at least I'm reading your comment as though there's an absolute truth for everybody. Grass is green, sky is blue, water is wet. Someone can always tell us what is truly the right answer. I don't get it. It ignores subjectivity.

Additionally you didn't pick a side DC or Marvel, you seem like a superman fan.

I'm ignoring LaserDisc's appeal as being "nifty" because that isn't tangible or objective.

Science is an absolute truth. Composite is composite, macroblocking is macroblocking, etc. It seems to me that antagonism towards LaserDisc spawns from a poor set-up. Someone has a crap comb filter so they make a thread about how comb filters don't matter, someone watches a great DVD transfer and that makes them disappointed with their LD version, so they make a thread to justify their LD collections as nostalgic, instead of having worthwhile PQ pursuits.
Author:  mlcsmith [ 19 Feb 2012, 12:15 ]
Post subject:  Re: Is technically better vs. personal pref. hard to compreh
naiaru wrote:
Science is an absolute truth.


Science is our best guess to date. Better living through chemistry, hey? Speaking of that, I thought this quote would be appropriate:

"Today, a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration – that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively. There's no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we're the imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom with the weather."

Bill Hicks is a legend. Don't just label him with the comedian tag, he was a brilliant mind.
Author:  naiaru [ 19 Feb 2012, 21:36 ]
Post subject:  Re: Is technically better vs. personal pref. hard to compreh
mlcsmith wrote:
naiaru wrote:
Science is an absolute truth.


Science is our best guess to date. Better living through chemistry, hey? Speaking of that, I thought this quote would be appropriate:

"Today, a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration – that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively. There's no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we're the imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom with the weather."

Bill Hicks is a legend. Don't just label him with the comedian tag, he was a brilliant mind.

...what?
I'm going to guess and write this assuming you meant that science isn't true, so if that isn't what you meant, I'm sorry in advance.
Merriam Webster wrote:
science
the state of knowing : knowledge as distinguished from ignorance or misunderstanding
Author:  mlcsmith [ 20 Feb 2012, 01:46 ]
Post subject:  Re: Is technically better vs. personal pref. hard to compreh
naiaru wrote:
...what?
I'm going to guess and write this assuming you meant that science isn't true, so if that isn't what you meant, I'm sorry in advance.
Merriam Webster wrote:
science
the state of knowing : knowledge as distinguished from ignorance or misunderstanding


Ignoring any personal politics or theory, I'm really just trying to highlight subjectivity. You are trying to force something that is subjective to be objective. You can say definitively that Blu-ray has a higher pixel count or that it's bandwidth is better. What you can't say is that the picture quality is better. Film is an art-form and as such is a completely personal thing. Percieving the best image is based on personal preference.

You might look at a futurist piece of art and say "why does that dog have like 24 legs, it's stupid, I don't like it." Or maybe you'd say "whilst unrealistic the image gives a hightened sensation of speed and ironically a lack of progress."

Same goes for the laserdisc image. You might say "it's soft and grainy and lacks detail, I find Blu-ray to be better." Or you could say "the laser image has more character a greater represents what I feel the film should look like, it has the better image than Blu-ray."

Neither are incorrect, it's all about subjectivity. What's good for you doesn't have to be good for me.
Author:  remington [ 20 Feb 2012, 02:19 ]
Post subject:  Re: Is technically better vs. personal pref. hard to compreh
mlcsmith wrote:
naiaru wrote:
...what?
I'm going to guess and write this assuming you meant that science isn't true, so if that isn't what you meant, I'm sorry in advance.
Merriam Webster wrote:
science
the state of knowing : knowledge as distinguished from ignorance or misunderstanding


Ignoring any personal politics or theory, I'm really just trying to highlight subjectivity. You are trying to force something that is subjective to be objective. You can say definitively that Blu-ray has a higher pixel count or that it's bandwidth is better. What you can't say is that the picture quality is better. Film is an art-form and as such is a completely personal thing. Percieving the best image is based on personal preference.

You might look at a futurist piece of art and say "why does that dog have like 24 legs, it's stupid, I don't like it." Or maybe you'd say "whilst unrealistic the image gives a hightened sensation of speed and ironically a lack of progress."

Same goes for the laserdisc image. You might say "it's soft and grainy and lacks detail, I find Blu-ray to be better." Or you could say "the laser image has more character a greater represents what I feel the film should look like, it has the better image than Blu-ray."

Neither are incorrect, it's all about subjectivity. What's good for you doesn't have to be good for me.

SOLID!
Author:  naiaru [ 20 Feb 2012, 02:54 ]
Post subject:  Re: Is technically better vs. personal pref. hard to compreh
mlcsmith wrote:
naiaru wrote:
...what?
I'm going to guess and write this assuming you meant that science isn't true, so if that isn't what you meant, I'm sorry in advance.
Merriam Webster wrote:
science
the state of knowing : knowledge as distinguished from ignorance or misunderstanding


Ignoring any personal politics or theory, I'm really just trying to highlight subjectivity. You are trying to force something that is subjective to be objective. You can say definitively that Blu-ray has a higher pixel count or that it's bandwidth is better. What you can't say is that the picture quality is better. Film is an art-form and as such is a completely personal thing. Percieving the best image is based on personal preference.

You might look at a futurist piece of art and say "why does that dog have like 24 legs, it's stupid, I don't like it." Or maybe you'd say "whilst unrealistic the image gives a hightened sensation of speed and ironically a lack of progress."

Same goes for the laserdisc image. You might say "it's soft and grainy and lacks detail, I find Blu-ray to be better." Or you could say "the laser image has more character a greater represents what I feel the film should look like, it has the better image than Blu-ray."

Neither are incorrect, it's all about subjectivity. What's good for you doesn't have to be good for me.


Yes, you are correct in saying it is subjective. Just like you can say dirt tastes better than birthday cake, you can say that a cropped DD DVD is better than a WS DTS LaserDisc or a LaserDisc is better than a native HD Blu-ray. You aren't wrong. You're just being ridiculous.


Also, I'm sorry for sidetracking the conversation, but what does "the laser image has more character a greater represents" mean?
Author:  invenio [ 20 Feb 2012, 03:09 ]
Post subject:  Re: Is technically better vs. personal pref. hard to compreh
I agree that this is going to come down to personal taste but I think there is something to be said for a well calibrated picture/sound. Ideally, you want to come as close to the picture/sound of the source material. Whether you "like" that source or not is up to the individual but there is a theatrical "ideal viewing" where colors, brightness, and resolution are maximized.
Author:  remington [ 20 Feb 2012, 05:24 ]
Post subject:  Re: Is technically better vs. personal pref. hard to compreh
Quote:
naiaru
Yes, you are correct in saying it is subjective. Just like you can say dirt tastes better than birthday cake, you can say that a cropped DD DVD is better than a WS DTS LaserDisc or a LaserDisc is better than a native HD Blu-ray. You aren't wrong. You're just being ridiculous.

You could possibly say dirt tastes better than birthday cake on a pastries or gardening forum and that may rise to an "interesting" discussion . That definitely would involve personal opinion (subjectivity). On the laserdisc data base forum we discuss laserdisc and other audio/video components. So here, we regularly discuss subjectivity as it applies to those things.

What really would be ridiculous, would be equating a discussion on personal preference between blu ray, dvd, laserdisc, dts, dolby digital, etc. with birthday cakes and dirt. You made a very good point though, both analogies involve choosing what you like regardless of how "bad" one thing is perceived to be over another. Whether it be desired intent to challenge simplicity or just pure over-intellectualizing, CONTEXT is an area that displays weakness in your debates.
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