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| Is technically better vs. personal pref. hard to comprehend? https://forum.lddb.com/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=784 |
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| Author: | remington [ 15 Feb 2012, 15:27 ] |
| Post subject: | Is technically better vs. personal pref. hard to comprehend? |
You play a blu ray disc for me, you then play a laserdisc for me on the same system. I'm told by you that the audio on the blu ray disc is superior and you outline all the technical reasons why that is so. I tell you I like the sound of the laserdisc better. Is that concept hard to comprehend and WHY? |
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| Author: | elahrairrah [ 15 Feb 2012, 16:01 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is technically better vs. personal pref. hard to compreh |
Your opinion is wrong! I kid |
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| Author: | elviscaprice [ 15 Feb 2012, 16:11 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is technically better vs. personal pref. hard to compreh |
Which laserdisc? Which soundtrack? Analog? Digital? Is the system optimized for digital? or analog? Do you need a hearing aid. |
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| Author: | naiaru [ 15 Feb 2012, 18:56 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is technically better vs. personal pref. hard to compreh |
I think VHS is better than Blu-ray. You can give me all the scientific facts you want, but VHS simply has superior PQ to Blu-ray. |
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| Author: | remington [ 15 Feb 2012, 19:47 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is technically better vs. personal pref. hard to compreh |
naiaru wrote: I think VHS is better than Blu-ray. You can give me all the scientific facts you want, but VHS simply has superior PQ to Blu-ray. If the facts support blu ray as superior (and of course they do-I'll play along) then you could say you like the LOOK of VHS better, why not, it just isn't accurate to say the pq is technically (scientifically) superior. Why do many of us swear by laserdisc? We all know (or should) that the "scientific facts" are in favor of dvd or blu ray. But, we like the LOOK or sound of laserdisc even though it is technically weaker. Wheres the hard part? |
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| Author: | remington [ 15 Feb 2012, 20:08 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is technically better vs. personal pref. hard to compreh |
elviscaprice wrote: Which laserdisc? Which soundtrack? Analog? Digital? Is the system optimized for digital? or analog? Do you need a hearing aid. Why watch a laserdisc at all, if, knowing the format is of lesser quality than digital downloads and dvds ? Maybe the higher specs don't mean as much if you actually like something in it's present form. That's what laserdisc is all about. |
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| Author: | remington [ 15 Feb 2012, 20:13 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is technically better vs. personal pref. hard to compreh |
elahrairrah wrote: Your opinion is wrong! I kid Thanks. Stayed tuned my friend. |
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| Author: | mlcsmith [ 15 Feb 2012, 21:15 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is technically better vs. personal pref. hard to compreh |
I don't find it hard to understand at all. I really got a little confused on that other thread how fixated people got on the numbers. Growing up in a regional town whose cinema wasn't top quality, I actually find laserdisc to be a decent comparison to it. I like the grain and quality of the image. I find that Blu-ray is often way too clean for my liking. |
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| Author: | laserdisc_fan [ 15 Feb 2012, 21:42 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is technically better vs. personal pref. hard to compreh |
The extra level of picture detail from blu-ray in particular can be quite startling at first. Unless whoever is being filmed has absolutely perfect skin (which is pretty rare) it can often make you look very rough up close. It feels a bit like looking at someone with a magnifying glass which is not how I normally perceive people. It is also very easy to think of lots of DVDs which exhibit very obvious pixelation which is something I've never witnessed when watching laserdiscs. Laserdisc sound to my ears is superior to any DVD I have heard. I could tell the difference immediately if I was blindfolded and asked to tell which format was playing using my own humble equipment. At the moment I don't have any music blu-ray discs that I already own on DVD and laserdisc to make a further sound comparison however I'd like to conduct some tests. |
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| Author: | remington [ 15 Feb 2012, 21:50 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is technically better vs. personal pref. hard to compreh |
mlcsmith wrote: I don't find it hard to understand at all. I really got a little confused on that other thread how fixated people got on the numbers. Growing up in a regional town whose cinema wasn't top quality, I actually find laserdisc to be a decent comparison to it. I like the grain and quality of the image. I find that Blu-ray is often way too clean for my liking. Thank you for restoring reason. Beautiful answer. |
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| Author: | remington [ 15 Feb 2012, 21:57 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is technically better vs. personal pref. hard to compreh |
laserdisc_fan wrote: The extra level of picture detail from blu-ray in particular can be quite startling at first. Unless whoever is being filmed has absolutely perfect skin (which is pretty rare) it can often make you look very rough up close. It feels a bit like looking at someone with a magnifying glass which is not how I normally perceive people. It is also very easy to think of lots of DVDs which exhibit very obvious pixelation which is something I've never witnessed when watching laserdiscs. Laserdisc sound to my ears is superior to any DVD I have heard. I could tell the difference immediately if I was blindfolded and asked to tell which format was playing using my own humble equipment. At the moment I don't have any music blu-ray discs that I already own on DVD and laserdisc to make a further sound comparison however I'd like to conduct some tests. Awesome! |
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| Author: | naiaru [ 15 Feb 2012, 23:55 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is technically better vs. personal pref. hard to compreh |
remington wrote: naiaru wrote: I think VHS is better than Blu-ray. You can give me all the scientific facts you want, but VHS simply has superior PQ to Blu-ray. If the facts support blu ray as superior (and of course they do-I'll play along) then you could say you like the LOOK of VHS better, why not, it just isn't accurate to say the pq is technically (scientifically) superior. Why do many of us swear by laserdisc? We all know (or should) that the "scientific facts" are in favor of dvd or blu ray. But, we like the LOOK or sound of laserdisc even though it is technically weaker. Wheres the hard part? I hope I'm the one who didn't get the sarcasm here, but you didn't really believe the thing I wrote about VHS, right? Also, the "'scientific facts'" don't necessarily support DVD over LD in all cases. DVDs rarely feature lossless audio tracks. LaserDiscs always feature lossless tracks. If the movie master is composite, LaserDisc would usually be superior given that you'd be able to use your own comb filter during playback, as opposed to watching the same thing on DVD; where you'd be stuck with whatever rainbows were added by the author's comb filter. LaserDiscs don't use macroblocks, so they don't suffer from macroblocking. Not to mention, the whole feelings vs science thing doesn't make a whole lot of sense. You can FEEL three is greater than a million all you want, but it isn't. |
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| Author: | remington [ 16 Feb 2012, 01:09 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is technically better vs. personal pref. hard to compreh |
"Ill play along" was my inference that I understood your sarcasm. What some are claiming is that 'scientific facts', tech specs, bit rates or whatever you want to call it make laserdisc inferior to dvd, blu ray. You can check various threads that support that position. I'm debating from that standpoint. I don't entirely know your view on this issue. I think you, me, and most on this site love laserdisc. We love the smooth film-like look, we often rave about the audio. And, we do that KNOWING that the "scientific facts" favor dvd and blu ray in many instances. Those scientific facts don't stop me (or you) from uplifting laserdisc, because we LIKE IT despite the "facts". When you like something, thats a FEELING. Our personal preference for laserdisc over-rides all the technical jargon in support of dvd, blu. Same thing goes for vinly vs. cd (digital), it's about preference. With everything I just wrote, there will always be someone that will say, "Yeah, but blu rays specs are better!" without the ability to comprehend that facts don't always please our eyes and ears. |
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| Author: | naiaru [ 16 Feb 2012, 01:42 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is technically better vs. personal pref. hard to compreh |
It's not as simple as LD > DVD or DVD > LD. There are cases where DVD is superior or LaserDisc and cases where the opposite is true. All the things I listed before are scientifically probable facts. DVDs do use Macroblocks for compression and Macroblocks are the cause of Macroblocking. Lossless 16-bit@44.1kHz PCM tracks are technically superior to 448 kbit/s DD tracks. Poor comb filters are often used on composite masters for DVD authoring. The choice of LaserDisc over DVD can be scientific in some cases. It's not all a matter of feelings. |
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| Author: | remington [ 16 Feb 2012, 02:30 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is technically better vs. personal pref. hard to compreh |
No, it's about feelings, otherwise there wouldn't be a laserdisc database. Outside of Betamax, laserdisc has some of the most passionate individuals in the electronics realm. And, they maintain those feelings even in the wake of hi def. Maybe some others will chime in. |
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| Author: | naiaru [ 16 Feb 2012, 03:11 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is technically better vs. personal pref. hard to compreh |
remington wrote: No, it's about feelings, otherwise there wouldn't be a laserdisc database. Outside of Betamax, laserdisc has some of the most passionate individuals in the electronics realm. And, they maintain those feelings even in the wake of hi def. Maybe some others will chime in. I feel like I'm being trolled here, but I'll bite. If there were absolutely zero technical advantages to LaserDisc over DVD, the amount of LD collectors would be INCREDIBLY less. Just look at mediums which arguably have next to no PQ advantages over DVD. Compare the amount of LD collectors to CED collectors or VHD collectors, etc. I keep writing it, but there can in fact be several technical advantages to LaserDisc over DVD, thus many sensible reasons to watch a LD over a DVD, in certain cases. Why deny science? Also, don't get me wrong, I understand that you, specifically, believe feelings for a format trump the technical merits of a format. I just don't want anyone reading this to think "oh, so LaserDisc is purely for nostalgic interest and there really are no instances where LaserDisc PQ or AQ trumps DVD PQ or AQ" |
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| Author: | publius [ 16 Feb 2012, 03:27 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is technically better vs. personal pref. hard to compreh |
remington wrote: You play a blu ray disc for me, you then play a laserdisc for me on the same system. I'm told by you that the audio on the blu ray disc is superior and you outline all the technical reasons why that is so. I tell you I like the sound of the laserdisc better. Is that concept hard to comprehend and WHY? Of course, there are other issues than personal preference which enter into it. If the audio mix used isn't the same, then there is no fair comparison, no matter how much information on sampling rates & bit depths is brought into play. Vinyl pressings often sound better than CDs of the same music, not because the LP is capable of reproducing "technically" better sound (it really isn't), but because the recording mixer has to respect the limitations of the format & not, for example, boost the loudness insanely. PCM will tolerate that, but the record needle may just jump out of the groove! The role of personal preference, assuming that preference actually has anything to do with the recording format, can only be strictly determined by something like double-blind tests using identical masters. |
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| Author: | remington [ 16 Feb 2012, 17:28 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is technically better vs. personal pref. hard to compreh |
naiaru wrote: . I feel like I'm being trolled here, but I'll bite. If there were absolutely zero technical advantages to LaserDisc over DVD, the amount of LD collectors would be INCREDIBLY less. Just look at mediums which arguably have next to no PQ advantages over DVD. Compare the amount of LD collectors to CED collectors or VHD collectors, etc. I keep writing it, but there can in fact be several technical advantages to LaserDisc over DVD, thus many sensible reasons to watch a LD over a DVD, in certain cases. Why deny science? Also, don't get me wrong, I understand that you, specifically, believe feelings for a format trump the technical merits of a format. I just don't want anyone reading this to think "oh, so LaserDisc is purely for nostalgic interest and there really are no instances where LaserDisc PQ or AQ trumps DVD PQ or AQ" I personally believe there are "technical merits" that laserdisc has over dvd, but try telling that to those who say the "science" on digital downloads, dvds and blu ray trump those technical merits on laserdisc. Whatever technical merit I argue for laserdisc, the big stats come out in favor of the newer formats. I support both the technical merits and the personal preference. I was previously debating two forum members that are strictly into a numbers game that supports their view that, the "scientific facts" of dvd, blu ray steps on laserdisc ( and vinyl). I am addressing those who have that viewpoint and seek to find contrary views. I have found some that understand my topic. As well, this thread remains relatively young. Words are to be used contextually, and "feelings" is no exception. There are those who like laserdisc, period, no matter what. Any and all "science" can become irrelevant to those who simply like something for what it is. |
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| Author: | benmbe [ 16 Feb 2012, 17:36 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is technically better vs. personal pref. hard to compreh |
Good afternoon Remington, Your quote; Words are to be used contextually, and "feelings" is no exception. There are those who like laserdisc, period, no matter what. Any and all "science" can become irrelevant to those who simply like something for what it is. I TOTALLY SECOND THAT! ! Good reading |
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| Author: | naiaru [ 16 Feb 2012, 19:08 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is technically better vs. personal pref. hard to compreh |
remington wrote: naiaru wrote: . I feel like I'm being trolled here, but I'll bite. If there were absolutely zero technical advantages to LaserDisc over DVD, the amount of LD collectors would be INCREDIBLY less. Just look at mediums which arguably have next to no PQ advantages over DVD. Compare the amount of LD collectors to CED collectors or VHD collectors, etc. I keep writing it, but there can in fact be several technical advantages to LaserDisc over DVD, thus many sensible reasons to watch a LD over a DVD, in certain cases. Why deny science? Also, don't get me wrong, I understand that you, specifically, believe feelings for a format trump the technical merits of a format. I just don't want anyone reading this to think "oh, so LaserDisc is purely for nostalgic interest and there really are no instances where LaserDisc PQ or AQ trumps DVD PQ or AQ" I personally believe there are "technical merits" that laserdisc has over dvd, but try telling that to those who say the "science" on digital downloads, dvds and blu ray trump those technical merits on laserdisc. Whatever technical merit I argue for laserdisc, the big stats come out in favor of the newer formats. I support both the technical merits and the personal preference. I was previously debating two forum members that are strictly into a numbers game that supports their view that, the "scientific facts" of dvd, blu ray steps on laserdisc ( and vinyl). I am addressing those who have that viewpoint and seek to find contrary views. I have found some that understand my topic. As well, this thread remains relatively young. Words are to be used contextually, and "feelings" is no exception. There are those who like laserdisc, period, no matter what. Any and all "science" can become irrelevant to those who simply like something for what it is. Well digital downloads are crap, the compression rates are just way too high. That's science. You can say that you'd ignore any case where a LaserDisc is worse than a DVD or Blu-ray (or digital download, apparently), but then why bother with this thread? You've already made up your mind. |
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